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Quote
 Re: dm_cliff
Posted by Orpheus on Tue May 3rd at 9:06am 2005

? quoting DrGlass


hey! I thought the city map looked pretty good, sure it didn't run well and the wepon placment was crappy and the skybox sucked... and other stuff but in my defence that was like 5 days worth of mapping for an engin I didn't understand yet

/throws rotten fruit

5 whole days huh smiley

No_Patience took me in excess of 6 weeks workin on it steady to perfect it, and it still was released with a couple bugs.

at the time, I had ... 3+ years worth of WorldCraft experience.

5 days.. /me giggles

[addsig]



Quote
 Re: dm_cliff
Posted by DrGlass on Tue May 3rd at 9:45am 2005

? quote:
? quoting DrGlass


hey! I thought the city map looked pretty good, sure it didn't run well and the wepon placment was crappy and the skybox sucked... and other stuff but in my defence that was like 5 days worth of mapping for an engin I didn't understand yet

/throws rotten fruit

5 whole days huh

No_Patience took me in excess of 6 weeks workin on it steady to perfect it, and it still was released with a couple bugs.

at the time, I had ... 3+ years worth of WorldCraft experience.

5 days.. /me giggles



I have high hopes for this map, if I can work out the kinks...
[addsig]



Quote
 Re: dm_cliff
Posted by DrGlass on Tue May 3rd at 11:36pm 2005

New screens:

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[addsig]



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 Re: dm_cliff
Posted by habboi on Wed May 4th at 4:30pm 2005

Nice pictures!

Oh who am I kidding they are the BEST! I AM GONNA CRY EVERYTIME I LOOK AT MY MAPS!!!

Anyway can you help me master!
I noticed the light rays and I need to know what folder they are in and if they can be resized etc because the ones I use don't fit my map!

[addsig]



Quote
 Re: dm_cliff
Posted by DrGlass on Wed May 4th at 4:42pm 2005

? quote:
Nice pictures!

Oh who am I kidding they are the BEST! I AM GONNA CRY EVERYTIME I LOOK AT MY MAPS!!!

Anyway can you help me master!
I noticed the light rays and I need to know what folder they are in and if they can be resized etc because the ones I use don't fit my map!



Effects folder. Turn off shadows and collision. they self animate.
[addsig]



Quote
 Re: dm_cliff
Posted by DrGlass on Sun May 8th at 2:03am 2005

Ok, Download is now up and Beta is out. There are still a few problems, but I want to test out gameplay before I stress over any more details.

I'd love to get this on the server for testing. Maybe get some people together monday or sunday.

the issues.

-cubemap/lighting issue in about 4 places
-lighting mistake in lift room
-fade distance problems all over the map
-some sound issues
-smoke goes through the floor in one area
[addsig]



Quote
 Re: dm_cliff
Posted by Campaignjunkie on Sun May 8th at 3:21am 2005

I did a quick run-through. I'm going to be fairly blunt:
  • There are light-colors other than red! Use them!
  • Framerate is terrible. 20-30 FPS averages in main fighting areas! It'll get even worse when there are actually other players. This is probably the biggest problem right now, and was a big problem with dm_park. (note that I have a fairly high-spec system, and average about 80 FPS on Overwatch)
  • Lack of landmarks in the hallways. No idea where I was in the context of the rest of the map. The rooms are all similar - pipes, machine soundscape, red lighting. Dedicate more resources to big details that are memorable... In the big picture, all of those little brush details don't really matter. (especially when framerate is suffering so much!)
  • Less hallways! They aren't very interesting to fight in. There's two ends and a long stretch of floor in between; not very special.
  • Cliff texture was missing.
[addsig]



Quote
 Re: dm_cliff
Posted by DrGlass on Sun May 8th at 4:38am 2005

? quote:
I did a quick run-through. I'm going to be fairly blunt:
  • There are light-colors other than red! Use them!
  • Framerate is terrible. 20-30 FPS averages in main fighting areas! It'll get even worse when there are actually other players. This is probably the biggest problem right now, and was a big problem with dm_park. (note that I have a fairly high-spec system, and average about 80 FPS on Overwatch)
  • Lack of landmarks in the hallways. No idea where I was in the context of the rest of the map. The rooms are all similar - pipes, machine soundscape, red lighting. Dedicate more resources to big details that are memorable... In the big picture, all of those little brush details don't really matter. (especially when framerate is suffering so much!)
  • Less hallways! They aren't very interesting to fight in. There's two ends and a long stretch of floor in between; not very special.
  • Cliff texture was missing.


I can only think of two places with red lights. I used more dark yellow/env_light than anything.

bah! I'll see what I can do with the fps, I may just cut out the far part of the map.

I cant say I agree with the lack of land marks, other than the red hallway I felt that it was pretty obviouse where you were though I made the map so its hard for me to tell. I think I will try and open up some more of the level so there are less hallways (that was something I was worried about).

So the Cliff shows up as checker board? I thought I used a HL2 texture! I'll add that to the download right now.

Texture is updated, sorry about that.
[addsig]



Quote
 Re: dm_cliff
Posted by Natus on Sun May 8th at 12:56pm 2005

eeh, i still get the missing cliff texture checkboard thing, are you using a texture from hl2 or hl2dm?
[addsig]



Quote
 Re: dm_cliff
Posted by DrGlass on Sun May 8th at 4:54pm 2005

? quote:
eeh, i still get the missing cliff texture checkboard thing, are you using a texture from hl2 or hl2dm?


try it again.
[addsig]



Quote
 Re: dm_cliff
Posted by Agent Smith on Mon May 9th at 1:19pm 2005

Well Doc I had a run round in the beta today and have some commentary that I hope will be helpful.

First it up it looks big but the map is really small, and to be honest, has a really bad layout. That giant container room, unless I'm missing something (which I probably am since it was really dark), is simply a giant dead end, with only one way in, a crossbow, a tonne of ammo, and numerous dark cracks to camp in. Not to mention the only route across the gorge is the teleporter, which seriously restricts gameplay. I'd have to say that I'd focus instead on the main area and get rid of the crate room. In fact if your worrying about framerate (the fact objects disappear shortly after throwing them indicates this) I'd not worry about extending the level to the other side, simply expand the main area and make the otherside look like the level continues when it doesn't, meaning you don't see as much detailed geometry at one time.

I think I've mentioned the lighting, it was extremely dark in most places for me, particularly inside the complex. Brighten it up with some more natural lighting and some varied artificial lighting.

The general look is pretty good,and you pretty much have the style down, though I'd recommend placing detail in at least semi-realistic areas, as some items stood out like sore thumbs where they were. Also make that big glass area into something, give it some function. If its just an observation deck then just add some more stuff to give that impression.

Summing up the biggest stumbling block at this point is definately the fact that the layout is quite frankly s**t, and should be the focus rather than the look until its fixed. Obviously its still an early beta and has a lot more work to go, but I think most of this stuff could be easily implemented and will improve your map. Hope it helps.
[addsig]



Quote
 Re: dm_cliff
Posted by DrGlass on Mon May 9th at 6:03pm 2005

indeed it does. This my friends is why you should plan your layout before you start work. Honestly as I made this I thought... crap this isn't going to work out at all.

Sorry about the brightness, I have a LCD and everything seems great to me.

I think I'm going to take a break for this map, it has been far far too much trouble and again I think its beyond repair at this point. I got too caught up in making it that I didn't think about the game play all that much.
[addsig]



Quote
 Re: dm_cliff
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Tue May 10th at 1:20am 2005

Hey Doc,

I did a run through and took a bunch of shots to give you comments before I saw that you were going to drop this map. Bottom line is I really really like the aesthetics of the map. The architecture, the texturing, the scope of the map in general... these are all things I liked a lot. Unfortunately like other people have said it's very very dark. But that can be easily remedied. The connectivity is poor. But this can be fixed by adding more teleporters (you already have one in there). The performance was poor on my computer as well. I'm not sure how you can fix that... as I'm not very familiar with techniques to increase FPS.

Anyway -- I wanted to show you the shot by shot breakdown just in case you decide to come back to the map.

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The first time I spawned it was in the elevator. I walked right through the grate on the elevator without it opening. Then I noticed the TV screen and went "ooh, ahh" a moving camera! I really like this camera effect you had on all your moniters.

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The smoke looked funny here as it just sort of... went through the ceiling. If you added a grate for a vent system or something it would look better.

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Skybox awkwardness.

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I wouldn't crouch-walk all the way down there just for the two energy balls, 1 health thing, and 2 batteries (especially since the batteries can be picked up in the hallway through the grill). It looks really nice, but I would make it easier to get in and out of that area.

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It's a nitpick but you might want to fix that.

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I'm not sure how you would fix the texturing, but it looks weird the way it is.

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I really like this area. A lot. It's simple, but curves are sexy.

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I can't see a thing. Which is unfortunate because I love the architecture in this area.

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This area is really dark, and I wish it was brighter because I liked the cable hanging from the ceiling as well as the curved architecture on the ceiling, even though I'm not sure what it was. I think you captured the cafe feel well though.

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I really liked this area as well. It was curved and the shadows cast by the beams were great. I also like the combine camera thing flying around. Really great idea. I wish you could blow it up, even if that meant another one would spawn again somewhere else.

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I really liked the bumpmapped rocks here (at least I think they're bumpmapped) and it's too bad I couldn't see them without my flashlight. I like how you integrated the base into the cliff.

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I liked the teleporters. Although I think it would help if there was a unique entrance and exit for each. That would probably eliminate accidental telefragging. Perhaps you could make the teleporter entrance on this side all the way inside the crate room (which is otherwise a dead end). Also, I think it would be cool if you added a teleport effect by making the entrance teleport you to a black tunnel with a high func_push that sent you from end to end with animated sprites and glowing stuff that once you reach the end teleports you to the exit to make it seem like you're actually teleporting and not just popping from one place to the other. the dm_Air_Hockey map that was recently posted here utilizes this to good effect I think. It's here if you want to check it out: http://www.snarkpit.net/maps.php?map=1980

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I LOVED this effect for some reason. I kind of wish it had killed me the second I touched the beam, instead of the 4 seconds or so that it took for me to stand there.

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I really liked the kitchen. It had a fully developed atmosphere and was bright. Unfortunately it's nothing more than a glorified hallway because there are only two entrances. I really like this room though.

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Ok. As you can see, this room desperately needs lights.

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Hopefully you can see the smoke from the generator coming through the floor here. If you add that vent/duct it would eliminate this.

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I really liked this hallway because of the rocks behind the grate and the pipes. I wish there were more lights.. perhaps some hanging ones linked by cables?

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Nitpick. Sorry.

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I liked this lightfixture (especially in the red room with the skylight) but I wish you had made it a func_detail or whatever so I wouldn't get caught on while running.

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I loved this pillar/architecture for some reason.

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I loved this area. I wish I could get up there.

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I'm beating a dead horse... but maybe you can use these shots to see what needs light, and how much.

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I liked the models and props, but I wish the wall was a different color so the pipes would stand out.

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I love the fact that you included details like this. The fact that the monitor is showing your map makes this room much cooler too.

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Don't know why that Cafe Baltic sign was hanging there.

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I liked this area and the view. I wish there was more light coming in... and I wish it was coming in at an angle.

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I had to post this because I like this window area a lot. The breaking glass makes its very interesting.

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The prop fadeout got so bad that these pipes were disappearing on me, bit by bit as I got closer and further away.

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That rock appears/disappears strangely.

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This was another area I loved, and I wish it were brighter.

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How am I supposed to get the magnum and the ammo without prop jumping up there?

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Dark.

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You need a clip brush over the fence, so I can't prop jump over and get my stupid ass stuck on the other side

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I love this canyon man.

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I wish there was a ladder or two so I could get back up there without having to run all the way around and back up.

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I like the ceiling a lot here. Wish there were lights up there.

I feel like I took other shots but I can't find them. There are definitely enough anyway. The canteen area with all the tables and TVs desperately needs lighting. If flashlights are off there's no way to see/kill anyone in there.

I hope this didn't seem too negative, or too nitpicky. I just wanted to show you I took the time to run through your map and write out my first impressions of each area. I hope you don't abandon this map. If you can find some way to improve performance (especially in the Cafe area) then all you need is just throw some teleporters in, some connecting paths between areas, and many more lights. I really like the atmosphere and the idea behind this map.

Edit: I forgot to mention, I wish that you could fall all the way down into the water and then die over a short bit of time (kind of like when you swim out too far on dm_island). I didn't like the fact that I couldn't savor my fall to the water below and that you die almost immediately after going over the edge.
[addsig]



Quote
 Re: dm_cliff
Posted by DrGlass on Tue May 10th at 6:14am 2005

Thank you, no review is really too negative. I need to hear about the bad s**t in my maps becuase when you guy so caught up in the project you cant really see all the flaws. Though I did know about alot of the prop problems, I didn't relize the lighting was SO bad.

I dont think I'm going to stress over the map, I like the look of it and I like the overall feel so I may try and use some parts of the map later on.
[addsig]



Quote
 Re: dm_cliff
Posted by Juim on Fri May 13th at 4:04am 2005

Love the map except I cant see the rock textures outside??? (untextured, and only the rock texture!)

Is my HL corrupted?





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 Re: dm_cliff
Posted by Cassius on Fri May 13th at 4:53am 2005

Don't be afraid to lower lightmap scales.



Quote
 Re: dm_cliff
Posted by DrGlass on Fri May 13th at 5:02am 2005

? quote:
Don't be afraid to lower lightmap scales.


I did, I hand most wall and floor light maps at 4 and I think that caused quite a bit of performance lag. So I bumped most of them up to 8 or back to 16.

am I wrong to think that lightmaps affect in game fps?
[addsig]



Quote
 Re: dm_cliff
Posted by Pureferret on Fri May 27th at 3:13pm 2005

Don't just leave it! This map is cool! Sure the lighting could be improved etc. But that isn't too big a change is it?

In the Freightbox room could you lift the clip up so I could snipe from the tops of the boxes? And add a window maybe....

A very cool map.




Quote
 Re: dm_cliff
Posted by DrGlass on Fri May 27th at 5:51pm 2005

? quote:
Don't just leave it! This map is cool! Sure the lighting could be improved etc. But that isn't too big a change is it?

In the Freightbox room could you lift the clip up so I could snipe from the tops of the boxes? And add a window maybe....

A very cool map.


Thanks for the intrest =) I think I'll come back to this map later, but right now other projects are more important.




Quote
 Re: dm_cliff
Posted by omegaslayer on Sat May 28th at 12:58am 2005

Sorry to post after 14 days of inactivity, but I must still insist you change the cliff texture to something less "bland", or just add a bunch of prop_wasteland rocks to the wall. You know add some depth to the cliff faces.
Other wise the interiors look great (maybe a little too dark in a few place) but still good!



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