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de_haywire
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 Re: de_haywire
Posted by LoveMeister on Mon May 16th at 8:28pm 2005

I would love some player feedback on the flow/layout of the map. I do not really worry too much about the visuals (even though I do think it looks fine now). I will fix that when I'm happy with the flow/layout

Cheers

- The LoveMeister





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 Re: de_haywire
Posted by LoveMeister on Tue May 17th at 9:38pm 2005

I've added some screenshots in higher quality as people were complaining about the current ones were too lousy quality. Here's the new ones - now with action : ).

http://img286.echo.cx/img286/503/dehaywirenew013xq.jpg
http://img286.echo.cx/img286/2262/dehaywirenew022re.jpg
http://img286.echo.cx/img286/9133/dehaywirenew032up.jpg
http://img286.echo.cx/img286/7209/dehaywirenew044fp.jpg
http://img286.echo.cx/img286/4671/dehaywirenew054tc.jpg

Cheers

- The LoveMeister




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 Re: de_haywire
Posted by Orpheus on Tue May 17th at 10:10pm 2005

I just love good images sizes.. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/heee.gif">

oh, yeah the pics look nice too.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: de_haywire
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Tue May 17th at 10:42pm 2005

Everything looks very boxy. Are there areas that use curves? Also -- why is that archway not symmetrical? It's strange that it seems closer to the wall on the left. Also, you could probably make it look smoother without it ruining performance.

Edit: I just reread that and it seems a little too negative, so I wanted to add that I think you've got a strong base here... it's looking fairly good. But nothing particularly stands out right now. With a few changes or additions in the area of visual flair you could create a memorable map. I haven't played it yet so can't comment on the layout but once I fire it up I'll give you some detailed comments.




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 Re: de_haywire
Posted by LoveMeister on Tue May 17th at 11:12pm 2005

Thanks for your unput.

I'm not really too concerned about the looks right now. That will come later. It's not ugly as it is right now - just unpolished. I'm a game-artist turned mapper so the challenge for me is layout/flow. I agree it indeed is rather boxy but trust me - a few props here and there to break up the shiluette of the roofs especially and it will all look fine.

If you have the time to play it a few rounds and tell me how you think it works I'll be ever so grateful because that is my main concern. I've spend quite some time thinking about the design and I do believe it is good and tight but since it's my baby I might be a bit blind to the maps short-commings.

Edit: haha - we were writing at the same time here. I am looking very much forward to your comments on gameplay.

Again, thanks for your time

- The LoveMeister





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 Re: de_haywire
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Tue May 17th at 11:17pm 2005

I really respect and agree with your commitment to layout and gameplay. Are any servers running this map currently? In a couple days when finals are over I can play this map but I'd much rather play against real people and not bots.




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 Re: de_haywire
Posted by LoveMeister on Wed May 18th at 8:36am 2005

I am so lucky that the good folks at 205.234.167.51:27015 (VooDooGamers.net) put it in their rotation

Thanks

- The LoveMeister





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 Re: de_haywire
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Thu May 19th at 3:16pm 2005

Unfortunately the voodoo server was empty and running dust when I downloaded your map, so I played for about 45 minutes with bots, 3 on 3. My computer can't really handle much more than that. Even with bots, it ran smoothly. So that's a plus. I think this is because you do a good job texturing which makes up for the fairly simple building geometry. Some of the windows you've textured in (namely the arched ones on the building you face from CT spawn) look silly being so flat and 2D. You could stand to flesh those arches out with some func_details.

I played 1 whole rotation as T and then switched to CT for another full rotation, but the first thing I noticed as Terrorist was that the bombsites were very open, and very square. A is a bit better laid out than B in my opinion because you have some decent cover within the site itself. As for B, you pretty much have to plant and withdraw to one of the neighboring lots. I'm more of a fan of the traditional plant and stay with the bomb mentality, so this lack of cover which necessitated me moving away from the bombsite (but close enough to continually check/hear if the CT's were defusing) was a little foreign to me. It works alright once you get used to it, but I still think there should be some more cover at B. It just occured to me that you're more worried about layouat at this stage and that you'll probably add some more stuff to the bombsites later.

So -- as for layout, the first T rush up the middle I remember being caught completely off-guard as the CT's swarmed around the truck. I had no idea of the size of the map and the quick contact, both at B and up the Middle kind of shocked me. I got used to it and liked the quick gameplay for the 3 on 3 I was playing. This map definitely caters to small servers and... I like the fact that no matter where I am on the map I can get to the bsites fairly quick. That makes it a little harder on the T's but I guess that's OK.

One thing that kind of bothered me was that you can stand at B with an AWP and face out to the truck and see right across the width of the map, and therefore watch if any T's cross from their side to the other. Likewise, you can stand at the top of the ramp in the middle and see right into B, and shoot anyone in the back attempting to defuse. If there was some sort of cover blocking the line of sight from the generator to the other side of the map, it would be more interesting. Along those lines I would have liked it if there was another route, or some more cover such as a simple low wall, that would obscure movement. Although, I guess the small size and connectivity really makes stealth not a big deal in this map, I just thought it was kind of strange that I could be facing one direction and have a pretty good handle on where everyone was or was going, without being too exposed.

1 small brush error that I noticed above the small de_cbble like window in the building near A. And some awkward texture connections in the buildings could use some trim to make the transition smoother. I'm referring to corners where one side is brick and the other smooth paint, but I'm sure you'll fix that up when you start putting the finishing touches on the map.

Bottom line is I liked the map, it was quick and it was fun. Good use of static props, and good atmosphere. A very clean map. Some good height variation with the B catwalk CT side and the ramps to A. Bombsites were too empty for my tastes, and offered too many long unobscured sniper lines to guard planted bombs.

Also, it didn't matter since I had buytime enabled, but it would have been nicer if you had extended buy zones some more towards the middle, since I like to buy on the run. I had to go back several times because I was overzealous and left the area (because it was so small) without ammo.

Hope you can use the feedback.

Oh, I'm not sure how cubemaps work in CS:S but I'm assuming you need them for the sniper rifles. Did you put any in? I didn't remember to check, but the scope reflections looked dull.




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 Re: de_haywire
Posted by LoveMeister on Fri May 20th at 10:20am 2005


It sounds like your play-style is very different from mine so your feedback is invaluable to me : ). I never really thought about extending the buy-zones because I normally buy my stuff before freeze time runs out but I think it's a mighty good idea to do.

I totally agree on all the visual stuff you pointed out. The map does look empty and the texture hook-ups are appalling in places. I will put more focus on 'beautification' in the next release than I initially anticipated because even I have a hard time to look past the visuals so it won't ruin the game.

I've read your post 3 times now and I think my biggest problem is that you found the long stretch from B to the top of the map too powerful. I agree with your points so I need to rethink the fundamental layout there I guess. One option I've been toying with is to put the A site in some sort of basement with 2 tunnels leading to it. One tunnel will start right at the Asite, the other one will start to the right of the T spawn and go under the long stretch allowing passage to Asite undetected from Bsite. It will look really interesting with some sort of semi-open tunnel system and it allows me to play around with two really distinct lighting styles. Having re-read what I just wrote I think I have to come up with a drawing to explain this properly : /

I do indeed have cubemaps in my map but I haven't got a clue why the sniper scopes look poo. I'll investigate.

Thanks a million for your feedback. It was a very interesting read.

- The LoveMeister





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 Re: de_haywire
Posted by Myrk- on Fri May 20th at 2:55pm 2005

I think we should start encouraging people to post up layout shots of thier map too, think it would be interesting and useful.


-[Better to be Honest than Kind]-



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 Re: de_haywire
Posted by Orpheus on Fri May 20th at 3:17pm 2005

? quoting Myrk-
I think we should start encouraging people to post up layout shots of thier map too, think it would be interesting and useful.

You know what I think? Us old timers need to start doing more critiques again. This time we just skip the "being asked" portion and grab some random maps. It looks like the new crop of authors just won't bother requesting them and if we keep waiting, we're liable to be waiting come Christmas. :/

I think we should drag a few new people through the wringer.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: de_haywire
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Fri May 20th at 4:40pm 2005

Hey Orph, I'm doing my best to give feedback and share my opions, but being fairly inexperienced at this, I wouldn't mind having some of the big guns show me how it's done.

Lovemeister, its really strange but I had exactly the same idea (well almost). I had the tunnel dog leg from the T spawn area to the CT spawn area, in an L. The exit would be left of the ramp to A. But after reading your idea I think that would be better as far as connectivity is concerned.

Like you said it would be nice to get an underground section going (although avoid the sewers idea since that has been beaten quite to death. Perhaps some sort of underground loading/unloading zone kind of like the covered area in dm_hydro). You already have trucks lying about so it wouldn't be too hard to move or add one to make it seem like an abandoned loading tunnel / bay area.

I'm really glad you appreciate the feedback I've offered. I'd love to see the next beta, and play it with you.

Anyway -- keep working man.




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 Re: de_haywire
Posted by G4MER on Fri May 20th at 6:29pm 2005

After downloading and playing this map with Bots (19 of them), I think its rather well done. Not too large you get lost, and not too small you cant camp or set up a proper defense. This map would make a great addition to any league, as its layout reminds me of many CPL spaciffic maps. The game play was smooth, and not laggy at all.

It works in its present form really well, and does not need an underground area.. but if you want to add an underground area, I would run a subway though the middle of it (seperating the two spawns not connecting them.), have a train docked there and some of the cars are pass though areas. You would have a traditional set of stairs to the subway ramp area, and maybe a service hatch or another ramp down on the other side for east bound traffic. This would give you a cool underground area, while not ruining the great game play that is already there.

Running though it I didnt notice any texture problems or any major faults.. so way to go on that. Prop placement was well done as well. The one problem I did have was the car well you have in the garage.. its too shallow. Men stand in those type of things to get under the car.. maybe your were thinking they would roll under laying down to repair things.. and thats fine too.

I like the way you set the Bomb Site A close to the CT spawn, and not in it. I also like that Spawn B is still close but the T's have closer spot to rush and have a couple ways to get to site B so its not as easy for a small squad of CT's to dominate it.

The generators as bomb sites.. ehh its new so its not that bad of an idea. Most people use crates or barrels so I have to give you points on doing something different.

All in All its a great map, with great CounterStrike Game play, as I said before I hope some of the Leagues around adopt this map as one of the new maps, it has great balance and pathing for such a thing.





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 Re: de_haywire
Posted by LoveMeister on Sun May 22nd at 1:53pm 2005

Hey all and thanks for the interest in my thread/map

@Myrk-

I totally agree and I for one would love to sneak peek at other mappers sketches. I wouldn't mind starting so here's a sketch of my next map.

http://img268.echo.cx/img268/6541/reactor0dg.jpg

It's really rough and as you can see it's been erased and re-drawn many many times. The sketch might not make much sense to anyone but me really but hey : ). I'm doing it with a friend from work and we started out with two sections we thought would be interesting settings (a train hub - Bsite and a reactor room - Asite). We fleshed out those two areas first and the worked on how to connect them. We flipped and turned the sites till we thought the best routes were there. All done in Photoshop for easy manipulation : ).

One thing Haywire taught me (Haywire is my very first map) is to 'ease in' the scale of the map instead of locking it down right from the beginning. My haywire sketches were too rigid so I had to redo some of the sections because they felt like the wrong scale.

@Orpheus

Bring it on! : ) I would love some hardcore feedback from the vet's here (and I promise I won't cry). If you stick to the stuff I haven't mentioned myself (the visuals being unpolished etc.) then the more, the merrier.

@Addicted to Morphine

I'll be doing some mockups of the underground thingy later this evening then we'll see how it goes : ).

@MoneyShot

Wow thanks man. Great to hear you think it's tight : ). About the mechanic pit thingy. Yeah I guess you are right it's too shallow. I wanted some sort of cover in there to help the T's a bit if they got rushed. The good thing about it right now is that you can easily get in and out of the pit. If I made it too deep getting out quick would be a problem. I orignally wanted a 4x4 sitting on top of the hole as if it was undergoing repairs but it would be too cramped if I put it in so I abandoned the idea...

I'll post some shots later of my progress.

Cheers

-The LoveMeister





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 Re: de_haywire
Posted by Myrk- on Sun May 22nd at 8:37pm 2005

Thats good to see, but I not only mean sketches, but also using the overview command in HL2, if its still there! I think a proper overview aswell will help us see your original intentions (from the sketch) and what you've actually made (from the overview) to help properly establish what ideas you changed and see if we think they were for the better.


-[Better to be Honest than Kind]-




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