DM_BocaBurgers
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Re: DM_BocaBurgers
Posted by im.thatoneguy on Fri Jul 15th at 6:40pm 2005


DM_BocaBurgers Beta 1.5
A Turkeyburgers Remake.

Download It!
Mirror 1

Major Problems:
- Need 3d Skybox Outside of Window
- Finish Unpopular Science Magazine
- Need to make more book covers

Roadmap:
Finish Beta 1 series: Fix major bugs and gameplay
Release Beta 2 series: Finished content, Optimization and polishing.
Release Final (Early August)

Known Glitches:
Jumping into Red Teleport from the top of Bookcase results in self telefrag.
SLAMs are easy to abuse at teleport points, need to be removed.
Lighting could use some attention.
Hole in ceiling above computer.
Shadows "leak" through some shelves.
Some models are rocket but not bullet proof (COUCH!).
It is possible to trigger teleport effect, without actually teleporting.

What I would like:
Critiques, go ahead be vicious, the more you find the more I can fix.
System Specs and performance impressions.
Online testing to check for abnormally high lag.
Testing Telefrag (Kind of hard to do by myself).
Ideas.
Impressions.
Solutions.


Screenshots:
Screenshot 1
Screenshot 2
Screenshot 3
Screenshot 4
Screenshot 5
Screenshot 6

Thank you for your time, and PLEASE critique the hell out of it.





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Re: DM_BocaBurgers
Posted by ReNo on Fri Jul 15th at 6:46pm 2005


Looks great from the screenshots particularly for a first map! Seems that rats maps are finally coming into their own <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> I'll take a run around in a few days (probably monday) as I've a bit of a busy weekend.






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Re: DM_BocaBurgers
Posted by Orpheus on Fri Jul 15th at 6:46pm 2005


Watch those screens.. 150k max.

I will check this thing over later. I hated Turkeyburgers. Not because it was a poor map, but because of its lack of frame rates on my old machine. Perhaps you did better. Perhaps the HL2 engine wouldn't let you fail.

I will let you know.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: DM_BocaBurgers
Posted by im.thatoneguy on Fri Jul 15th at 6:56pm 2005


Haha! Well then you might want to play the old version with your new system I still do. I get about the same framerate on my system as I do in DM_Powerstation in the open area. That is to say, fairly low.

With an:
Athlon 2600, 512 MB of RAM, a Radeon 9500 on Windows XP @ 1280x768 (Widescreen monitor) 4x AA and 16x AF I get around 35 FPS when looking across the room. It'll drop down to 30 if I'm hunkered in a corner looking diametrically across all the geometry at once.

I would really appreciate people posting their framerates and settings so that I can try to get a feel for performance on a variety of machines, thanks.





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Re: DM_BocaBurgers
Posted by Orpheus on Fri Jul 15th at 7:31pm 2005


Map plays fine framrate wise, but I found so many glitches it was painful.

Clips, teleporter glitches and overlapped solids galore.

Weapon placement seems fine..

6/10 in its current form.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: DM_BocaBurgers
Posted by im.thatoneguy on Fri Jul 15th at 7:38pm 2005


When you say teleporter glitches I assume you mean the way it bumps you around? This is a problem I still can't find a GOOD solution to, maybe you'll have a fresh perspective. Half Life 2 carries your momentum through the teleporter... so if you were running at 10units per second 'west' when you exit the teleporter you continue to move 10 unites per second west. The only way I could figure out to fix it was to put up an invisible wall on spawn for you to bounce off of that is turned off when your feet hit the floor. Is there anyway to Negate that momentum?

I'm not sure what you mean by clips, could you elaborate?

Specific glitches would be really appreciated so I can fix them.





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Re: DM_BocaBurgers
Posted by ReNo on Fri Jul 15th at 7:42pm 2005


"Clipping" is basically what people mean by collision detection. When you run around the level you sometimes get snagged on things or don't move as smoothly as could be desired. By using clip brushes - brushes that are invisible and allow bullets to pass through, but block player movement - its possible to make the players move around the level smoother. Good uses of them are placing them on little details that might catch the player as they run past, so if you build a smooth clip brush around it they will simply slide on past. On the other hand, bad use of them can make the player feel restricted, as there isn't anything there for them to see, yet they are blocked. I don't know what Orph is referring to by saying "clips", but something related to player movement around the level no doubt.






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Re: DM_BocaBurgers
Posted by Orpheus on Fri Jul 15th at 7:46pm 2005


I didn't realize this was unfinished. So many assholes show up with completed works that I failed to look. My apologies.

Teleporter glitch= My son and I fragged this map. At least one of the teleporters sticks in the "ON" position. With that I mean, we both ported in, no telefrag occurred but the effect stayed on. The glowy dusty thing you have set up on teleport. It remained solid and was impassable from any direction. Also, my son (who fragged me cause I was stuck atop him) was also frozen in place and had to frag himself.

Clips,= hangs,catches that snag onto your player as you walk/run about. Some are unavoidable, some can be fixed with the clip brush.

I can do a full critique upon request.

[edit] I however will not do so until the screenshots are optimized.

[edit#2] remove download link #1 and #3.

#1 shows a serious lack of courtesy for anyone by offering an unzipped file.
#3 being your private FTP.. Well its your bandwidth, but people will use it just to be evil. Especially if you suggest them NOT to.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: DM_BocaBurgers
Posted by im.thatoneguy on Fri Jul 15th at 7:57pm 2005


#*$&#(# Teleporters, those things have caused me absolutely no end of pain.

I fixed another overlapping brush, apperantly in the process of making the mouse, I duplicated the table surface instead of a rope entity. Just the act of fixing problems creates new problems I can see where valve was coming from when they said "Looking at the number of bugs we find and fix every day..." You definitely can't just create a static list.

I'm open to sudgestions on how to make the teleporters telefrag, It would seem that Valve just made an arbitrary decision in Half Life 2 to completely ignore all Teleporter development, their implementation is pathetic at best.

Keep it coming, I'll compress the big pics.

[Edit] I have never released a map before, I thought people might be afraid of virii, I take it that's not the case.

[Edit #2] All images are now compressed.

[Edit #3] Thanks for the clipping tip, I can see where that would be really useful, I'm going through and clipping like crazy, never even crossed my mind to do that before. If there is a highly offensive spot that really needs a clip brush let me know.





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Re: DM_BocaBurgers
Posted by Orpheus on Fri Jul 15th at 8:31pm 2005


Do not over compress the screens, no one will bitch much if they are 80-150K.. You are losing clarity.

I will get on a critique soon.

[Edit]

My machine specs include:

AMD 3500+ @ 2.2 ghz
Radeon 9800 pro 256 meg.
512m pc3200 ram

BocaBurgers Critique





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: DM_BocaBurgers
Posted by im.thatoneguy on Fri Jul 15th at 11:29pm 2005


Wow, Thank you, that was reallly helpful.

Yeah 3d Skybox and More books are "In the mail" I should have those done next week, but they weren't really important to gameplay.

Only thing you got wrong was, it was a shotgun under the couch that you have to crawl to, not a grenade. From my experience, sometimes you can be pretty desperate on the ground and need something to get back in the fight, it is essentially the closest safest weapon. Do you still feel I should put something of greater worth there?

I added a s**t load of clips, I might have gone overboard... I tend to do that, but it's as smooth as a newborn's ass, so at least that shouldn't be a problem anymore.

My internal thought process was to make the lights bright enough to give cover to people trying to take out snipers, that's why you do user testing. I'm compiling the culmination of all of these fixes here in half an hour.

Book covers are a part of the Fair Use act... right? *dials lawyer*smiley

[Edit] Well it took me 3 hours but I got telefragging MOSTLY implemented. If you jump into the red teleporter from the top of the bookshelf... You also get telefragged.





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Re: DM_BocaBurgers
Posted by Orpheus on Sat Jul 16th at 3:18am 2005


? quoting im.thatoneguy
Wow, Thank you, that was reallly helpful.

.

Not one of my best. I do not feel to well today and I am a bit off my stride. My hopes are that some of our better critique writers will take up my slack. We have many members far better than I.

My appologies...

[edit] you should point that other forum back to this thread, or post the link to any critiques you receive at least. Perhaps you can get them to do one for you as well, if they know exactly what you want "from" them.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: DM_BocaBurgers
Posted by im.thatoneguy on Sat Jul 16th at 3:43am 2005


Do you mean Interlopers? Or are you saying there is another forum on Snark I should post this on.

Either way, no more critiques until this new build finishes uploading. Lol I wouldn't mind puting that one behind me and moving on. I'm still just amazed how poorly Half Life's Teleportation system is implemented... it's really quite pathetic, almost like they didn't actually intend anyone to use it.





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Re: DM_BocaBurgers
Posted by fishy on Sat Jul 16th at 4:17am 2005


? quoting im.thatoneguy
I'm still just amazed how poorly Half Life's Teleportation system is implemented... it's really quite pathetic, almost like they didn't actually intend anyone to use it.

i heard that valve had actually managed to code wormholes into the physics engine, but it worked so well that most of the source code for the game disappeared down one of them and ended up on some poor guys comp. valve covered up their incompetance by creating a conspiracy to blame him for everything they could. the teleporters that shipped with the game were only thrown together from old bits of tf2 code that didn't work very well.

[/derailment]




i eat paint



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Re: DM_BocaBurgers
Posted by Orpheus on Sat Jul 16th at 4:22am 2005


? quoting im.thatoneguy
Do you mean Interlopers?

The one mentioned in the profile.

As to the teleporters, search the editing forums and/or post a question. Do not use this thread to solve your riddles.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: DM_BocaBurgers
Posted by im.thatoneguy on Sat Jul 16th at 4:55am 2005


Sorry I was just mubleing to my self... through a keyboard.... Yeah that's it...

Anyway, Thank you again for the critique Orpheus, I think I got everything that wouldn't take an entire weekend to do integrated. I spiffied up the description so that it was actually readable and took some new screenshots so they are actually reflecting the state of the map. I didn't intend to release a 1.5, but your critique had more than enough things to warrant a new compile. No reason to keep rolling in the same mud.

Download the New Version (Screens updated on map's page and at root message):

BocaBurgers Beta 1.5





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Re: DM_BocaBurgers
Posted by Orpheus on Sat Jul 16th at 7:36am 2005


Keep your updated screens on the latest reply. No one will bother going backward to page #1 unless you are VERY clear that they need to.

and.

This has been bugging me for 2 days but...

"Where's the f**king door?"





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: DM_BocaBurgers
Posted by im.thatoneguy on Sat Jul 16th at 8:05am 2005


LOL I Know... I know... I admit it. There is no door. The secret is out!

In the original there was no window either, It was like Rats: Prison. I've been more than tempted to put a door where the unpopular science picture is, although if I decided to go realworld, I would also need room for people's legs by the couch, space for the person to sit at the computer desk, enough room for a person to walk from the couch to the computer without stepping over the table... The list could go on and on and on. I just sort of said to hell with it, nobody will ever, ever live in this room. Or they could crawl in through the window.

OK so Orpheus says to make this clear, so here it goes.

THIS FORUM IS FOR DISCUSSION ONLY! IF YOU WANT TO DOWNLOAD THE LATEST VERSION, SEE THE LATEST SCREENS, READ THE LATEST BUG LIST. GO TO THE MAP'S PAGE, OR READ THE ROOT MESSAGE, AS I WILL BE UPDATING IT, NOT REPOSTING EVERY TIME I PATCH.

Sorry, used my outdoor voice there for a second. Won't happen again, unless I need to make something else clear.






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Re: DM_BocaBurgers
Posted by Orpheus on Sat Jul 16th at 11:27am 2005


*whispers*

This guy has been making me giggle since he arrived. /methinks he will fit in nicely.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: DM_BocaBurgers
Posted by Orpheus on Sat Jul 16th at 1:02pm 2005


Caution: This person "sounds" like a player, NOT a mapper.. Although he has some good ideas, I would take his overall outlook with a grain of salt.. Players do NOT make good maps. Use your own judgment.. It is your map after all, but i have a lot of experience with my claim. "PLAYERS SUCK AT MAP MAKING"

Quoted from Interlopers Forum

? quote:
Alright, just hada walk through your map, and I've got to say I'm very impressed. But, as you said you wanted us to bitch and whine, let the bitching commence.

1. Some things seem to me using odd materials. Why, when I shoot those cups, or the M&Ms, do they seem to be made of wood?
Yup, I noticed wierd things too, but nothing noteworthy.

2. the trigger for the teleport sound doesn't seem to overlap exactly with the teleporter, so I sometimes walk next to the teleporter and hear the sound without being teleported.
News to me, but quite possible. I would check into it.


3. More physical objects! I know its an MP map, and so you need to consider network overheads etc, but please let me knock over some of those books! Also, those are the densest M&Ms I've seen in my life. I'd love to see my rocket/grenade send those things flying, as opposed to just making them roll around a bit.
NO!, if you could make the M&M's tossable, that would be great but, this map is already stressing things I would not chance it.

4. I can get stuck. There's a little rule/guideline in game design that says a perfect player should be able to complete a game to 100% without losing any life. Maybe you could do well to try and apply that here. The teleporter that takes me to the second top shelf of the bookshelf (the one with the 2 crates of rocket ammo behind the books), seems, as far as I can tell, to bring me to a point where, unless I jump/fall off and take the damage that brings, I can't get out of. Am I missing something? is there a way to get off that shelf without falling all the way to the coffee table or the floor?
I found no locations that you teleported to that were deadend's..

5. In some places, scale affects playability. I found it -very- hard to jump up onto books. For example, I couldn't get up that stack of books that the chair is leaning on, as much as I tried. Also, it took me 6 or 7 shots to jump up onto the copy of The Simulacra that allows me to run along the top of the corkboard (I then tried to jump from the book onto the brick that pokes out from the wall and promptly missed and fell all the way to the floor). If I have that much trouble doing it as the only person playing, imagine if I try it on the run, while someone's firing crossbow bolts at me. Could get very frustrating.
Crouch jumping, although annoying in a multiplayer map, is not unheard of.. If you could build ramps out of a few clip brushes that would be great, but not a necessity.

6. Am I supposed to be able to run up that chair onto the desk? It occured to me that, possibly because of the above complaint, the connectivity of the level isn't great. It seem really difficult to get between certain places.
For the most part, connectivity is fine, its "flow" thats hindered. No one wants to crouch while being chaced in a frag..

7. Why shotgun ammo on top of the bookshelf? especially if there's no shotgun around. I don't get it. The top of the bookshelf would strike me as the perfect sniper spot, yet I only get health and ammo for my shotgun (aka the least accurate long-range weapon) for getting up there.
Not only NO, but HELL NO!.. never cater to snipers.. Place the weapon so that the sniper needs to go get it. Preferably as far away from the camping spot as possible.

8. Getting into the drawer with the CDs and teleporter was hard. I had to, like, crouch down and jump to get in there from the ladder from the floor.
Getting into the drawer is as easy as walking up the chair leg and hopping across.. Easy as pie.

Anyway, that's mostly it. I'm gonna keep an eye out for any servers running this map, as I'd love to try it out with other players. Congrats on a great map.





The best things in life, aren't things.




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