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Dm_Cloudcity
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Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by snowforskate on Mon Apr 17th at 2:33pm 2006

I can assure you its not my machine, The most detailed source maps ever made give me 70 fps all through out, however with this one and other maps with large skyboxes to seal the map its not the case. I've done the same thing with my releases and I just wish someone had explain that^ to me when I made that mistake. I'm just trying to help him out. All I was saying is I wouldnt host a map like this, as well as other server admins cause the framerates are to low. So in othe words yes I will bitch about 30 fps because it can be fixed.

PS if your getting 30 fps on a 9800 then I could only imagine how bad it is for those running lower grade systems, hence admins dont host maps like this.



Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by Orpheus on Mon Apr 17th at 2:56pm 2006

? quoting snowforskate
. So in othe words yes I will bitch about 30 fps because it can be fixed.

But you're working on the premise, that the cause and your solution are whats in evident.

I get massive framerates on many maps too but no one should, or could complain about 30fps.

Now, it might be purely visual data and there is no true way of correcting the situation, short of removing things or visblocking.

The map, by design is a large, open thing. There is a lot to draw all at once.

Yes, I have seen times where a skybox causes issues. But, without me going to the same spot you were in and looking at my frame rates, I'll never know.

In the end however, HL2 requires a certain amount of horse power to run. I would say that my video card, or maybe a 9600 is about as small as one could expect any map to run well upon. I, as a mapper would not build my map to run on an older card simply for players benefit. I would not deliberately sabotage them so that they couldn't play, but if I optimized my map and it still gave them trouble, then they would just have to play another map.

Sadly, this map may prove to be such. I dunno.

Bottomline, 30 fps is nothing to complain about. 20 maybe, 15 most definitely, but not 30. Thats optimal anyway.

Anyway, I feel you are complaining prematurely. Your solution may fix this, may not. But 30 isn't anything to be bothered over.

You still didn't answer my question. Why is my older card delivering better than yours?

It could still be your machine.





The best things in life, aren't things.



Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by rival on Mon Apr 17th at 3:22pm 2006

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

i got about 10 to 12 fps on most of the outdoor bits.

but anyway, i think this is a great map. the archtecture is detailed and i love the custom textures. i did notice some strange anomalies though:
1. in the console i got this error looping over and over: too many vertex format changes per frame. Probably too many world materials or env_cubemaps
2. this could just be my s**tty machine but some of the reflections in the metal were strange colours like oil on water:


3. odd shaped brushes would spontaneously appear and disappear every so often. heres one:




Bullet Control: $5000 for a bullet.
"I would blow your f**king head off! ...if I could afford it. I'm gonna get another job, start saving some money... then you a dead man!"



Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by ReNo on Mon Apr 17th at 3:29pm 2006

? quoting Orph
I, as a mapper would not build my map to run on an older card simply for players benefit.


That sounds kinda conflicting with your old view on r_speeds with HL1 Orph image



Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net



Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by snowforskate on Mon Apr 17th at 4:18pm 2006

Well what im trying to get at is, a map that has 30 fps like this with this ammount of detail dose not run good with a decent ammount of players. Server admins have to think about people with lower and systems as well, if a map is giving us with good video cards 30 fps the people with lower end systems wont be able to handle it, therefor decresing your server traffic. Don't get me wrong I realy like the map otherwise I prob wouldnt have commented at all. I would just like to see the framerates increased for final because I know they can be, and I would like to host the map. Wrapping the skybox will increase the framerates by double in most cases, I've seen this come from other mappers and first hand experence. From my personaly experence of this was my finca_housewarming release has 55 to 60 fps in spots, once I wrapped my skybox the framerates went from 55 in 2 diffrent spots of the map to 120 to 145 fps in those spots. Sence then I've only been able to add more and more detail and the framerates are still doubled. Here is a screen of the diffrence I recived with my map...

Before...(notice I had the skybox wrapped to the outside walls as tight as possable and lowered to the top roof in the map, as well as nodraw everything underneath)
http://img124.imageshack.us/my.php?image=before6kc.jpg

After...(the only diffrence from reciving doubled framerates would be the fact that your video is not drawing a skybox over a long distance anymore)
http://img374.imageshack.us/my.php?image=after3ks.jpg

Try doing this with your map and I assure you the framerates will be better, if not doubled. and to answer your question orpheous here are my system specs and settings I was running... 3800+ 64 bit athlon, 7800 GTX evga, 2 gigs ram, x-fi sound, 500watt psu, 10,000 rpm hd, at 1280 by 1024 no anti aliasing, no antistrophic filtering, low shaddow detail and low pixel shadding, everything else is high.
I still hit 300 fps on other detailed maps at 2048 by 1536 on high settings (in hallways ofcorse) and in the most detailed spots stay around 70 + fps so im sure there is nothing wrong with my card/drivers ect. on average most realy detailed source maps give me 70 + fps on any resolution. never had any dirver problems with 3d programs or games. The low fps I recieve on this map I can gaurentee you is from the map, not my system.

Another way you can test this skybox theroy is go to the corner of your map and look at it across the map (the way the skybox is drawn in most distance, you will notice the framerates anywhere like this are low) Then turn around and look at the walls of your map that only draw a small corner of distance of the skybox. (PS it dosnt matter if you dont see the skybox, its still being draw, just looking at a one textured wall will do, you will notice this first hand) When you look at the walls that only have a small distance of skybox behind them those spots have realy high framerates. then once you look at anything else in the map, even if its not a detailed spot at all, be it a blank wall, it will still give you low framerates if whats behind what your looking at is skybox drawn over a distance. Just eliminate the skybox behind all the walls that you dont see skybox from inside the map. use more world brush thats nodrawed to seal the map and less skybox. skybox texture is the worst decreaser of framerates in a map from my experence. Go test it for youself, I assure you there will be a diffrence. Just dont get me the wrong way, I realy love the map, I just need it to run better for other players with lower end systems to host it.

edit: BTW Im sure your framerates being slightly better then mine have to do with the fact that this game was made for ATI cards.



Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by Orpheus on Mon Apr 17th at 4:30pm 2006

? quoting ReNo
? quoting Orph
I, as a mapper would not build my map to run on an older card simply for players benefit.



That sounds kinda conflicting with your old view on r_speeds with HL1 Orph

It does, but...

HL1 had a 1000 cap limit. No machines card could alter this.

HL2 has a different upper limit. I am not sure what it is yet, but as I said, my card is a 9800 pro.. I feel thats the bottom of the list for cards. I know someone will have a different viewpoint, but thats mine. As such, I would make my map according to what my bottom of the line card can handle. Anyone with an older card, would have to deal. I understand that HL2 will run on older cards, but mine is the oldest card I feel comfortable catering to.

Hope that made sense.





The best things in life, aren't things.



Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by [FF]FNDR.Jake_Brake on Mon Apr 17th at 5:09pm 2006

I am having trouble getting the textures to load. I placed the entire "dm_cloudcity" folder under my material folder on my client but still no success. BTW, when unzipping, the extract shows a new "map" folder under materials which I do not believe is correct. I left the materials in both locations just to be safe.

Any help would be appreciated!





Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by Orpheus on Mon Apr 17th at 5:37pm 2006

Extract zip to this directory:

C:Program FilesValveSteamSteamApps**yourname**half-life 2 deathmatch

That'll fix'ya up methinks.





The best things in life, aren't things.



Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by Belgarion on Mon Apr 17th at 5:50pm 2006

hey man, fantastic work. really lovely. reminds me a lot of Jedi Knight 2:Jedi Outcast. And that, from me, is a very big compliment. I consider JK2 to be the best SW game I've ever played. it doesn't run so well in places for me. One place in particular had a huge fps drop due to particles and dynamic lights. not sure where you're using dynamic lights, but you might want to check your point_spotlights to make sure they're not emitting dynamic lights. but anyway, i like a lot. Good work.


___My Site___ | www.leveldesign.nl



Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by Dark_Kilauea on Mon Apr 17th at 7:38pm 2006

You do have too many reflective surfaces, and some of them could be removed without being too noticable.

I'm working on a list of sugessions for improving your optimisation. It might be done by tonight.

Good work so far.


Dark_Kilauea
DVS Administration
http://www.dvstudio-production.com/



Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by Forceflow on Mon Apr 17th at 8:05pm 2006

Awesome map, but to make it more accesible to the public, you need some optimization.


:: Forceflow.be :: Nuclear Dawn developer



Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by mazemaster on Mon Apr 17th at 10:36pm 2006

? quote:
? quoting Orph
my card is a 9800 pro.. I feel thats the bottom of the list for cards.


I run HL2 on my GeForce2... Yeah... <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_lol.gif">


http://maze5.net



Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by Orpheus on Mon Apr 17th at 10:52pm 2006

? quoting mazemaster

? quote:
? quoting Orph
my card is a 9800 pro.. I feel thats the bottom of the list for cards.



I run HL2 on my GeForce2... Yeah...

By choice or are you comfortable doing so?

Its a serious question because I have a 1.8 ghz P4 with a 9000 ati 64 meg that I really don't like using and its a bit better than a GeForce 2.

I suspect that either you are waiting to buy a better machine, or a better card, or both. I doubt you enjoy your experience with that card.





The best things in life, aren't things.



Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by mazemaster on Tue Apr 18th at 1:14am 2006

? quote:

? quoting Orph
I suspect that either you are waiting to buy a better machine.


Bingo. However, HL2 doesn't run half-bad on my 6-year-old box. I don't see all the fancy shaders, but it still looks good and gets decent fps.


http://maze5.net



Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by Belgarion on Tue Apr 18th at 1:32am 2006

haha. that is awesome. hey if it still works, might as well continue using it, right? if you can get the same, or nearly the same experience with far less expense, there's not much reason to go to high expense for low return. course, a decent computer that will run HL2 with everything cranked up isn't too hard to do any more. as far as computer expenses go anyway. 600 bucks is still 600 bucks no matter what you are buying.

do shiny surfaces contribute to the 'swap buffer' budget graph?


___My Site___ | www.leveldesign.nl



Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by Dark_Kilauea on Tue Apr 18th at 7:12am 2006

? quote:
do shiny surfaces contribute to the 'swap buffer' budget graph?


Yes, they do. On lesser cards this can turn into serious lag.


Dark_Kilauea
DVS Administration
http://www.dvstudio-production.com/



Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by mazemaster on Tue Apr 18th at 7:27am 2006

Basically any non-trivial shader contributes to the swap buffers.


http://maze5.net



Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by reaper47 on Tue Apr 18th at 9:26am 2006

? quote:

? quoting mazemaster
However, HL2 doesn't run half-bad on my 6-year-old box. I don't see all the fancy shaders, but it still looks good and gets decent fps.


I played through HL2 on a Geforce 2 MX. Believe me, once you get a better card you'll be shocked what you missed. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">

Also it's good to have a standard card for mapping. island17 (one of my favourite HL2DM maps) has bad cubemaps (not showing up) which is really unecessary. You could have tested it with a Radeon 9800. Not that expensive anymore also.



Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by poisonic on Tue Apr 18th at 2:19pm 2006

the lowest fps i get is 78 fps on a en7800GT 256MB ddr3 with 1024MB system ram and a AMD Athlon 64 3700+ san diego


This map is exelent.....
A tip sometimes it helps if you cut your skybox in smaller parts instead ofonebig overlapping skybox.......You will notice that the the compiling goes faster.....

to boost gaeplaye even moreis using custom models for the architectal details........ a to detailed brushwork can cause an horrible laghead><link rel="stylesheet" href="themes/standard.css" type="text/css"></head><body topmargin=2 leftmargin=2>



Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by snowforskate on Tue Apr 18th at 3:05pm 2006

""the lowest fps i get is 78 fps on a en7800GT 256MB ddr3 with 1024MB system ram and a AMD Athlon 64 3700+""

removed.
EDIT: sorry to seam cocky, I know what I said may have came off wrong, hence I removed the post. Honesty I would just like to know the reason your getting those fps, cause from ethier side of the map I saw 30 fps. if you had 78 fps in the spot where my screen showed 32, there must be something your tweeking. + my sysem is much better : / I'm guessing your tweeking your cfg/gfx settings, please inform.




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