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Dm_Cloudcity
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 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by Agent Smith on Wed Apr 19th at 7:15am 2006

MisterBlister you should be extremely proud of this map, as it looks simply incredible. I'll be downloading it this weekend and giving it a bash, but from what I've seen during the dev process and the earlier beta's you've done an excellent job. Even if your map doesn't get the best framerate, that shouldn't detract from the work of art you've created. Hell, I think I've only made a couple of maps that actually run that great image. Very well done.


Ham and Jam Contributor
http://www.hamandjam.org

'Get your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!'



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 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by BlisTer on Wed Apr 19th at 10:42am 2006

we're 2 different ppl m8, with a confusingly similar name <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">

as for the map, havent played it yet but from the screenshots, there seems to be a lot of eye candy. i especially like the exteriors.




These words are my diaries screaming out loud



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 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by Juim on Wed Apr 19th at 10:16pm 2006

The map you have so far is potentially great. Right now it feels sterile, and devoid of sound it even lacks all the more for a true environment feeling. I would suggest custom sounds as almost everything else in the map is so, and as I believe someone else mentioned, maybe a bit more variation in texturing, but not much.

I also thought it would be cool to have one of those vehichles descend onto the green lit landing pads down below, and then take back off randomly. I think that would rock. Otherwise I bow to your mapping skilz. This map is gonna be a doozy.





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 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by Orpheus on Thu Apr 20th at 12:05pm 2006

? quoting snowforskate
I didnt get the chance to read them all but this is what I found when I played the map. A spot with my 7800 GTX dropped to 30 fps, I took a screens of it here... ( this is on low graphics settings to )
.

Let me reitterate. I wasn't trying to bad mouth you over the 30 FPS thing (although I still feel that 30 is nothing to get upset over) but reading this post and

? quoting snowforskate
? quoting poisonic
""the lowest fps i get is 78 fps on a en7800GT 256MB ddr3 with 1024MB system ram and a AMD Athlon 64 3700+""

removed.
EDIT: sorry to seam cocky, I know what I said may have came off wrong, hence I removed the post. Honesty I would just like to know the reason your getting those fps, cause from ethier side of the map I saw 30 fps. if you had 78 fps in the spot where my screen showed 32, there must be something your tweeking. + my sysem is much better : / I'm guessing your tweeking your cfg/gfx settings, please inform.

this tells me that you do indeed have an issue. My main point was, my machine is many levels older/slower than yours and I got nearly the same frame rates on a much higher setting.

You need to look harder at your own setup. Again, I am not bad mouthing your machine, but the facts say, you have a problem.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by poisonic on Fri Apr 21st at 7:45pm 2006

i forgot to mention the resolution i played the game in 1600x1200.......... Since HL2 is a real ATI game having SLI does not change a thing.... im curious what CROSSFIRE can do to boost up frames.......


I dont have an SLI system........ my sys is prepaired for it....... but i rather buy 1 good card :P

<html><head><link rel="stylesheet" href="themes/standard.css" type="text/css"></head><body topmargin=2 leftmargin=2>



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 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by poisonic on Fri Apr 21st at 7:46pm 2006

In the map over watch my frame rate is ridiculous in 1600x1200...... 160fps........

<html><head><link rel="stylesheet" href="themes/standard.css" type="text/css"></head><body topmargin=2 leftmargin=2>



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 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by MisterBister on Sat Apr 29th at 9:38am 2006

Sorry for not answering for two weeks, but ive had an hell at school and been sick aswell.
I also wanted to hear what everyone had to say before rolling out my plans.

First of all I would really like to thank everyone for the great feedback, as always snarkpit beats all the other
mapping sites by far when it comes to this. Again, thanks alot, I really appreciate it.

? quote:
this will be a featured map on Dweebs.. its awesome.

Its always nice to hear that people like my work but if you dont mind I would like to have an explanation aswell, why it is awesome?
Whats dweebs?

? quote:

Its architecture is great, but the attention to the small stuff is missing. The crate situation is... It leaves something to be desired. I love the textures on them, but, there are simply to many.


Yes, i do feel the same. however its difficult to add small stuff because of two reasons. First off, framerates. If i manage to optimize the map enough, ill definitly add more small stuff. Secondly, in source small stuff consist of models, an art that i do not know anything about, yet. Nice to hear that you like the textures on the crates though, I made them image.



? quote:
The map had connectivity out the butt, but, being mostly metal, there were no distinguishing landmarks. One could be in a constant state of "Being lost"

The gameplay tests actually suggests the opposite. Most of the players quickly understood the places different functions and gave them names such as "the shaft" very early on.



? quote:
I realy like what you did with this map, very nice job on the design and detail. one complaint tho, the fps.

This is a very known issue, believe me. Thanks for the heads up anyways. Ill talk about optimizing later.



? quote:

This might be what Orph was getting at, but you could really make the hallway look good by adding "trim" to the floor. So like next to the wall the floor is metal, and then in the middle of the path its carpet.

Ive had lots of similar feedback about this carpet, ill take your suggestion into consideration.



? quote:
but anyway, i think this is a great map. the archtecture is detailed and i love the custom textures. i did notice some strange anomalies though

This is because there is too many reflective materials being rendered at the same time in the main area. I had the same problem in earlier alpha versions, but i thought i had fixed the problem for good. Seems like I didnt. Thanks alot for the heads up.



? quote:
hey man, fantastic work. really lovely. reminds me a lot of Jedi Knight 2:Jedi Outcast. And that, from me, is a very big compliment. I consider JK2 to be the best SW game I've ever played. it doesn't run so well in places for me. One place in particular had a huge fps drop due to particles and dynamic lights. not sure where you're using dynamic lights, but you might want to check your point_spotlights to make sure they're not emitting dynamic lights. but anyway, i like a lot. Good work.

Thanks, what is you favourite part of the map then?
The dynamic lights come from the elevators. The particles is from the clouds beneath the map.



? quote:
MisterBlister

This is very interesting... For some reason Americans mixes me up with "blister" _all_ the time. I even had a guy wanting me for his mod calling me blister, despite the fact that i said my name was misterbister.



? quote:

I also thought it would be cool to have one of those vehichles descend onto the green lit landing pads down below, and then take back off randomly. I think that would rock.


I would also love to have flying vehicles in the map. However the problem is that i simply wont make anything brushbased and i dont know anything about modelling. This feature will probably not be implemented into the map, but i would love if i could, especially if the players could interact with the vehicles somehow.




Aight, off to my plans.

Optimization
Lots of effort will be put into optimizing the map. First off ill try out the skybox suggestion. Secondly ill remove some of the reflective materials aswell. Heres some specific examples of what i will change:

This particular area really gives me an headache. First off theres way more polygons than needed right here. Secondly the opening is made so that the engine is forced to render everything behind it from almost all angles in the open area. Ill add a wall here so that this wont happen. I think this will do alot for the FPS since theres so much being rendered without any need of it.
image

This whole building i completely retarded, pulling all of the resources away and being uggly at the same time. Ill probably remake it from the ground up.
image

In this area ill remove the opening.

Gameplay
One big thing that i noticed during gameplay, and ive had feedback about it aswell, is that the weapon placement simply doesnt work as intended. Players avoid some areas completely and some areas are far to rewarding. Im planning on making a total remake of this.
Instead of putting all the good stuff concentrated, ill spread them out. Ive been thinking about making "routes" for different types of players which they can take to get the weapons and equipment they like.

Im planning to add explodable barrels in the final version, simply because they are so much fun. Dangerous and unpredictable. What do you think about them?

The map also contains lots of areas where theres very poor gameplay because of the lack of cover and "small stuff". One of the greatest example of this is this:

image
Any suggestions on improvement?

Another area that totally lacks of small stuff is this one, how should i make it better without boxes?
image

Im very unsure about theese holes in the street. Do they really add as much as they take in performance? I made them because i thought it would be fun to shoot people out on the holes and watch them fall down and because i wanted the place to feel like a battleground. However this doesnt happen very much.. Whats your thoughts about them?

image

Again, i would like to that you all for the great feedback!



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 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by Orpheus on Sat Apr 29th at 12:30pm 2006

Now this is just my opinion, but it is based on years and 1,000's of peoples betas that I have assisted on.

This map suffers but only in the sense of aesthetics. You seem to have architecture down pretty well, but you are forgetting the little things that most would walk past in complete ignorance.

image

Look at this screen shot. What is it missing? What should be missing? This screen shot is pretty indicative of the sterility of the map. You have cubes to save frames, but the cubes detract from the setting. The pro's and con's cancel each other out... So get rid of the cubes.

On the other hand, you are left with a sterile corridor/stairway. This city has electrical usage out the yin/yang but, there seems to be nothing powering it. Is it microwave fed?

Place some transformers (of your unique design) in that area. Put in some switch's. Put in anything thats not a crate. Crates=bad. Naked hallways are better than crates.

In a few areas, you even have an automobile or two. What conceivable purpose would they add to the map?

In the end what you are going to have to do is either get a partner that specializes in the little things, or release a sterile map.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by MisterBister on Tue May 23rd at 10:15am 2006

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Ive been extremely busy the last month because of schoolwork and the launch of www.leveldesign.nu (a swedish site with lots of tutorials for leveldesigners and modellers).
The project has also partially been put on hold because of Leveldesign-LAN which im arranging with my friends. Since im hoping to get lots of valuable feedback from the attenders and dont want to change anything too drastically before the event. I also hope that Teddybear (an extremely talented texture artist) will help me out with the materials during the LAN.

(Leveldesign-LAN is a swedish LAN for leveldesigners which takes place in gothenburg 1-2 times a year. People travel form all over sweden to take part of this event.)

Im also learning the basics of modelling in order to create prop that may be present in the map to remove the sterility.


Im currently working hard on optimizing the map. Here's two very WIP shots:
image
As you know, i never was happy with this area at all. Im currently remaking it into a constructionsite. Because of the optimizations that im currently planning, the area will actually be less constraining to the engine than it is right now.


Heres an in-game image of another WIP optimization im currently working with. Ive blocked the entrance to the building with a wall in order to stop the engine from rendering the stuff inside. Hard to explain but you guys who have been playing it will probably understand what im talking about <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">. Ive also remade the appearance to reduce polygons.

Thats all for now. Since I'm graduating in one week I'll be working with the project at a much higher pace the following weeks/months. Expect a big update after Leveldesign-LAN (late june).



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 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by MisterBister on Wed Jun 7th at 3:45am 2006

ive had lots of crits about the spaceships so ive decided to make new ones.
Me and Teddybear managed to create the first ship today. Took quite a while, but it was worth it =).

image

The image is taken from below, and the yellow lights are headlights.



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 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by MJ on Wed Jun 14th at 10:35pm 2006

very nice spacecraft there..



f**k Fun maps!



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 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by MisterBister on Sat Jul 1st at 10:26am 2006

Progress:
The LAN is over, and we all did have a really good time. I got lots of valuable help from Teddybear and we remade almost all of the custom textures I made . Lots of stuff has been either added, changed or removed since the last update, however i dont feel im ready to post pics just yet.
Currently im drawing spaceships and commersial ads for the map aswell as struggling with the final (and most difficult) optimizations. Im also playing around with throwable objects and how they change the gameplay.

Currently they work great and are alot of fun, but the problem is that i will probably have to make my own props before the final launch (wooden boxes doesnt look good in a sci-fi environment) and i know very little of modelling. Hopefully i could get some help with that from another friend.

Thats all for now. Hopefully I'll be able to give you a big update with lots of new stuff in a couple of weeks.



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 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by Naklajat on Sat Jul 1st at 11:29am 2006

Neat. I look forward to seeing the finished product <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


=o



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 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by MisterBister on Sat Jul 22nd at 10:43am 2006

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Alright, time for a big update on the project.
Its been a while since i showed any images, but now i think its ready to reveal the almost final version of dm_cloudcity.
The list of features is too long to state in one go, i think its better to just write some comments below every image.
Here we go:


Lets start with this "overview". Actually i find it very difficult to make an overview of the map since it is to big both in X and Y -axis but also in Z axis.
The skyscrapers are so high <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">.
Anyways. This scene has gone some big changes, however most of them are optimizing stuff, but i wanted to add more color into the map, so I made more commercial ads, aswell as warning signs informing the inhabitants of cloudcity district to stay where they are, or else they get "terminated". This actually has a story behind it, but i will not reveal I just yet.
Many of my textures in this scene has been remade with help from Teddybear. However its not very noticeable from this angle.



Here you can see the new spaceships of Cloudcity all of the new ships are painted by "hand", or should i say photoshop? <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">. At first i hoped that i could make the ships func_tracktrains and then add normalmaps to them, but it didnt work out very well since the big dreadnaught seemed to overlap ships that actually was closer to the player. In general, the ships behaved very buggy as tracktrains, so i decided to use the more safe "scrolling texture" technique <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">.
The patient one might also witness a chase between two ships across the sky...



Here is a somewhat changed area. I thought it would be fun if I added graffiti and trash all over the place. The result is quite satisfying i think. New textures in the ceiling aswell..



Heres an image of the warehouse. not much has changed, except for new textures, and of course a soundscape.



In the early days i had a big brown carpet on the floor in this room to give it a feeling of luxury. The place was supposed to be a waiting room for passengers departing from cloudcity. Though I had lots of complaints from people wondering why the hell i had that carpet lying on the floor. When searching for other solutions i found an image of an hotel with a marble floor, and i thought that looked quite good, so i decided to make for this room as well. I also added the city-symbol on the floor as reminder who is in charge. As you can see, it resembles the one the combine use. However mine is more skyscrapish i think <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">.



Heres the elevator shaft. I added red light in the shaft to the left, instead of white to indicate that something has gone badly wrong there. The atmosphere got alot more hostile that way, just the way i wanted it. The newly added soundscape helps out with that quite well. Ive also added automated freight elevators in adjacent shafts.



I couldn't really figure out how to add crates and explosive barrels into cloudcity at first since i didn't know any modeling. However one evening when i did a walk through of the current build with a few friends I got the suggestion to "simply" re-skin the current wooden crates and the barrels. All i had to do was to de-compile the models, make an entry in the .QC file to point at another texture location and then recompile the models under a new name.. Sounds easy right? Well.. It took me at least 6 hours to figure out how to do it. Thanks to tons of bugs and stuff i almost gave up. However the feeling when i finally made it was quite satisfying <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">. The crates might need more polish, but I'm quite happy with the barrels. All tagged with the cloudcity logo.



Heres an in-game image of the construction site that i showed early pic's on about a month ago, or was it two? I found it very hard to make a good overview in one image. The place fells alot better in-game than it does looking at this image.



Heres the Lab again.. Not much has changed except for new textures and a soundscape.

Other changes/additions:

Added sound, everywhere.
It took some time, but i finally managed to add soundscapes in all areas. I had big troubles finding a suitable soundscape for the outdoor area, so I made my own. Its a mix if sounds from Hl2 as well as a mixed recording from a highway in Texas i found on the Internet. The result is quite good i think.

Added support for team play.
Ive also added spawn points for team play, however i haven't had the possibility to see how the game play works in this mode, yet.

Weapon placement completely remade.
I decided that the old placement of weapons was quite bad, so Ive been tweaking it like mad. Thanks to my "testing-team" Ive managed to make the map alot more balanced, however more testing is required.

Custom textures remade.
Almost all of my textures has been remade with help from Teddybear.


Thats all for now. The map is VERY near its final version, there are a few bugs and glitches left to kill... All i can say is sooon.



Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by Naklajat on Sun Jul 23rd at 4:23am 2006

Looking very slick, glad to see you stuck with it <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


=o



Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Sun Jul 23rd at 5:23am 2006

Looks really good. I also think the decision to add trash and clutter was a good one. I really like the dirtier areas.

Also, I like how far your crate warehouse has come, looks cool instead of just an excuse to have crates about <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Custom content goes a long way in making your map look fresh. The reskins certainly look great, along with the ships and the ads.

Definitely a massive project, glad it's almost done. I don't have any real critiques, just have to wait till I get home to play the final version when you release it. Good job!





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 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by MisterBister on Tue Sep 5th at 9:08pm 2006

The final beta is now compiled and available.
This is your last chance to give feedback!

No huge visual improvements has been done since last update, only optimizations and other gameplay tweaks.

www.leveldesign.nu/skit/dm_cloudcity_final_beta.rar



Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by reaper47 on Wed Sep 6th at 1:36am 2006

I somehow missed downloading a beta I think so these comments are probably a bit too surprised about parts of the map that are a little older. Sorry...

I just loaded the map to have quick look and it's absolutely breathtaking. The skybox is now even better than in the older version. I don't know what you've changed, maybe the bigger car sprites moving in so many height levels giving it an amazing depth. I just stood there and looking up for several minutes.

The only aspect about the visual design I feel like it could be tuned a little more is the "brightness" of some textures. The floor in this pic reflects the cubemap so brightly it looks like it almost "glows". It looked even brighter in-game and I fist thought it's a full-bright bug. The same is true for almost every metal texture. There's this "tint" or "intensity" value (I don't remember the name) for cubemap reflections in the VTF files. Maybe you should try turning it down. It just looks too bright, not like metal or anything my brain can relate to a solid surface. It's also much brighter than the few default textures that are left, which increases the contrast to much between the two sets of textures.

The new sounds are great. They reminded me of how important sounddesign can be for a map.

You announced this project as map to "push the limits" of the Source engine so I don't know how much sense it makes to talk about performance... I just think that, considering the effort you put in the current geometry and custom texturing, more custom models should be worth the extra work. They could improve performance considerably and probably even allow some extra details not possible with brushes. I see so many brush-objects that would be perfect for a prop_static and not too hard (yea, hard enough, I know <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif"> ) to make.

Excellent work.



Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by Naklajat on Wed Sep 6th at 4:12am 2006

OMGOMGOMG!
Downloading, will be back with comments image

EDIT: I gave the map a pretty thorough check for bugs/exploits and took about 50 screenshots (most are exploits), I'll sort through them and write comments in a little bit. I want to play this map with 10 other people!


=o



Quote
 Re: Dm_Cloudcity
Posted by [FF]FNDR.Jake_Brake on Fri Sep 8th at 9:49pm 2006

I have been running A74 version on my server for awhile now. Great map so I will definitely try this version ASAP! BTW, I really appreciate you adding the textures within the .bsp file as a server operator!!

Keep up the great work!!






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