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 Re: sp_undeadarena
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Fri Feb 17th at 7:12am 2006

I'm looking for comments. I know this map needs a lot of work (especially with lighting which, aside from those lights on the outside of the building, I haven't touched) but I thought I'd get a thread up so I could post progress shots and keep myself motivated.

Things to do:
-Finish the building in which the player starts (you can see the corner of it on the right side of the first screenshot)
-Add an entrance to the tiny sewer area which will hold health kits and a poison headcrab or two.
-Add one more cliff to close off the level
-Fix the cobblestone paths that currently criss cross the map with no real plan
-Displace all the grass
-Add info_nodes
-Do all the lighting
-Dirty the map up with decals (graffiti, stains, blood)
-Add dead bodies
-Add another soundscape or two
-Add items and weapons
-Add props

Additional shots at this point (alpha 8):
imageimageimage
imageimage


Please, if you have anything to say (anything at all) please share. I want to make this as good as I can, so don't hold back on the criticism. Thanks for looking!

Edit: Updated the map profile shots so I put the ones I replaced here:
imageimageimageimage





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 Re: sp_undeadarena
Posted by HazardGameR^ on Fri Feb 17th at 3:36pm 2006

/me likes

The lighting is actually pretty ok, depending on the "feeling" you want to add.

Maybe some spotlights here and there outside, from the top of the building to the grass. And also some red lights inside might look good.

That wall on the shed or whatever going into the cliff looks (very) odd.
Maybe you should try to make the cliff flat, so the wall goes flat in too.
image

Add some props to the grass! Fountains, barrels, bench, flower-beds (Whatever you call them in English ). And trees! With swings... Might not fit in though . You name it... Displacements only won't help it .

Nice map overall! Dont change the lighting too much, i think it looks good.





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 Re: sp_undeadarena
Posted by reaper47 on Fri Feb 17th at 7:39pm 2006

Why are people so obsessed with zombies? IMHO there are much more interesting enemies in HL2. On the other hand complaining about zombies in a zombies map isn't that constructive... it's just something general I noticed. The architecture looks quite ok already, maybe you should add some trims and borders to the walls as they sometimes look too flat.

I don't agree with the red lights. Red lights are annoying and I find them to fit only in spots where you expect red lights to be in the real world: Near dangerous places where they are used as some kind of "warning sign". Get rid of the grey/white/bluish lighting for interiors. Try to use strong yellows to add some warmth and contrast to the lighting.



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 Re: sp_undeadarena
Posted by Orpheus on Fri Feb 17th at 9:41pm 2006

(I only hope this works as I have never used another thumbs before to post a critique. If its ugly, I apologize in advance)

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The swirly/curvy architecture looks good but, you may run into a clash if you mix it with the wrong texture sets. In this shot, you have rock walls with an industrial texture set above. IMO it clashes, BUT since I cannot see it all except in this screen, it might work out alright elsewhere.

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In this shot, the thing that sticks out is the building in the background. Its not built wrong, its textured... differently. I would try different sets. You might eventually come back to this one but at least try another one. I like the architecture in the front area here. It looks well made. I also like the dim light levels, at least in so far as the screenshot. Sometimes an ingame level is contrary. A few displacements on the ground couldn't hurt. It looks like a tennis court in its flatness.

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Run for the hills. There be crabs hereabouts.

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Everything in this shot looks superb... Except the ceiling. Its horrible. Trying to make a flat plane look less flat by adding wood is not a good idea. Yeah, it looks OK if you have a castle, but this is not a castle. Try to create some depth by making varying degrees of elevation. Shafts work wonders, as well as a few fans.

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Those dips in the wall back yonder, make a few of them deeper, break up the pattern you have going so its less repetitive. I would also think about making the area more diverse in texture choices. Having a wall for instance thats two levels high, with contrasting textures looks better than one 30 foot tall monotonal wall.

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This shot looks excellent except... The grounds to flat again. I would also think about how the building is in the rock walls. Usually building show some form of intrusion when built into a wall of rock. Perhaps some cracks or maybe a barrier wall to "hold back" the rocks that are crumbling off. Your building slides in as if its having sex or something.

/2 cents





The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: sp_undeadarena
Posted by gorami on Fri Feb 17th at 11:36pm 2006

Well its looks amazing and it has the spookyness just like the hl2 did in zombie infested level. Should be exciting map for improving you gameplay but you need to keep it interesting considering you just fighting zombies so needs the atosmosphere.





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 Re: sp_undeadarena
Posted by Orpheus on Sun Feb 19th at 4:50pm 2006

Anyone seen Morphine lately?

I am waiting patiently for him to rate one of my maps for this critique. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">

BTW folks, the asking price for one of my critiques is one map rating. Preferably, one you have looked at.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: sp_undeadarena
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Mon Feb 20th at 12:56pm 2006

Hey Oprheus, I was gone all weekend and just got back.

Thank you for your feedback, I was hoping you'd give me some comments on my screenshots, so thank you for doing so!

Here's my response:
-Originally the curvy walls were crete textured, and I got some feedback saying ot spice it up -- get creative with the textures. I thought the stone textures looked decent, but I could be wrong. I'll explore other texture choices (same goes for the yellow building in the background).

-The grass is flat, and I plan on displaceing it all once I've finished off the buildings (there are still a couple to be built).

-Despite what the screenshot may suggest, the beams across the garage ceiling are made out of concrete and not wood. It may be clearer in game -- but I'll look for a new texture. As for adding shafts, I'm not exactly sure what you mean.

-I didn't like the wall with all the supports, and I will definitely change them around -- like you said its very boring,

-I'll change how the rock intersects with the little booth near the wall.

Once again, thanks for looking and giving me feedback. I'll also try to download and rate one of your maps.

@HazardGameR^ -- I will definitely change the way that small building looks. Also, I definitely plan on adding spotlights when I do my lighting pass. I think the long shadows will loook good.

@reaper47 -- thanks for your comments. I haven't done the lighting yet, but I will keep your comments in mind when i do.

@gorami -- thanks for your comment. I'll make sure to keep the gameplay exciting and varied. I'm thinking the only weapons I'll be adding are prop_physics and the shotgun. I'm also planning on releasing the VMF when I'm done so that people can tweak the entities and change the level to suit their tastes.

I'll post more screens soon -- and hopefully you'll see the progress. Thanks all.




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 Re: sp_undeadarena
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Fri Mar 3rd at 7:40pm 2006

Despite the apparent lack of progress, I've still been working on this. Mostly on the main building that isn't really ready to be shown yet, but I've also been working on the sewer entrance and I've also done some of the terrain.

There's too much of the map open to the void right now for a compile, but here's a hammer shot of the terrain and sewer entrance.

image

I'll show more soon -- expect more progress this weekend.




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 Re: sp_undeadarena
Posted by SpiKeRs on Fri Mar 3rd at 9:14pm 2006

What I like about this is it seems so clean (with regards texturing and structure), lots of nice lines and defined edges, if you know what I mean <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> The architecture looks great too. But whats the setting? Where is it exactly? It doesnt look especially coherent in that regard. I know its already been commented on, but I think some moody lighting could really help to address this issue.



Hello there.



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 Re: sp_undeadarena
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Fri Mar 3rd at 10:10pm 2006

Thanks for the kind words SpiKeRs, I really appreciate it.

As for the setting, I originally just wanted to create a simple arena with simple architecture -- nothing more than a glorified and expanded killbox where one could fight wave after wave of zombies. The original concept looked like this:
image

As I expanded the arena I decided to depart from the arena feel and go for a more realistic theme. The original concept shot evolved into the outside of a garage loading bay, with the yellow industrial building next door.

It continued to evolve into an industrial area in a small valley. I'm pretty happy with the yellow building and the inside of the garage, and I really like the way the outside of the garage looks (its the stone building with the crazy pillars) but I'm afraid the outside of the garage no longer fits with my industrial theme. I do like how it looks, so I don't want to part with it, but if you think it's too jarring and confusing for the theme I'd consider reworking it.

Right now I'm working on adding another building similar to the yellow one and making it larger and have it be a combination warehouse office complex. It's opposite the sewer entrance.

You're right, I haven't done any lighting passes yet, but once I do perhaps it everything will look more unified. I'm considering adding fog as well, but I don't know exactly how that will look.

I still have a lot to do, but thanks for the comments.




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 Re: sp_undeadarena
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Mon Mar 6th at 2:06am 2006

Hey everyone,

As I promised, I've used my time this weekend to get enough work done on the map to get another compile in. I took plenty of shots to share with you.

Please please PLEASE give me as much criticism and comments as you can. I want to hear what looks like rubbish, what needs changing, what small details I can add to make this level really come to life. I haven't really made a detail pass yet, but any suggestions will really help.

The first shot is an overhead view of the map. Obviously the map is not very big, but at this point I'd rather release a small map rather than not releasing a larger map at all.
image
Right now the map has a figure 8 layout (the stone building on the left is accessible, but the red building on the right isn't, so you can only run around it).

The next shot is in the sewer. You can see the broken great which allows you to drop in quickly, but forces you to leave through the pipe. I'll be adding some ammo and a few headcrabs to this area before its done.
image
Notice how half the pipe is dark and the other light? I know it has to do with how models in Source can only take one light source, but it's annoying and I'm not sure how I'm going to fix it. I'll probably have to do a workaround with light entities to balance out the pipe brightnesses.

The next shot is my favorite (if I do say so myself) and its of the sewer pipe exit and the red building I've added since the last compile.
image
The light glow is too bright, I will tone it down greatly next compile.

Same area different angle:
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A little to the left:
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The glows are gross.

A reverse shot from the same area to put it in perspective with the rest of the level:
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Another reverse shot this time from the other side of the building:
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Wide shot of the red building:
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Right side of the red building:
image
I'll probably be replacing the dev textured area with a brick warehouse.

Reverse angle:
image

I fixed up the little shack so it doesn't look like its having sex with the cliff :P
image

Issues I'm aware of:
  • I had forgotten about the displacement paint alpha bug, so for the next compile I'll invert everything so that it'll look the way I intended. Right now its grassy next to the paths and cliffs, and muddy in the open areas, which is obviously the opposite of what I wanted.
  • The light glows are way too bright. I'll play around with the settings until I get a much subtler glow.
  • I have a big orange wall behind the red building. I need to figure out what to do with it... but I'm leaning towards a brick warehouse and some more cliffs.
Stuff I'll work on for the next pass:
  • The inside of the garage needs to be reworked. Mostly the pillars that Orpheus pointed out in the intro.
  • Lighting, lighting, lighting. I'll be adding spotlights to spice up the buildings and the open areas.
  • Decals. Gonna need to splash some blood, bullet holes, and burn marks here and there to make this a true zombie level.
  • Props. I'll be dirtying everything up with some prop_physics debris and general trash. Prop_ragdoll dead bodies will also be added.
  • NPC's and items. Once I finish up all the level design stuff I'll be adding the zombies, ammo, guns, and a couple of survivors to possibly fight alongside as long as you can keep them alive.
Thanks for reading this long update!




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 Re: sp_undeadarena
Posted by Crono on Mon Mar 6th at 2:17am 2006

The bright lights fit well, since it is a warehouse-ish area, to be able to see people coming towards the entrances of the place, they'd have very bright lights ... however, you should be able to see WHAT the light is coming from. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

The grated ceiling is hideous and needs some sort of support system (here's a good chance to mess with physics!!)

I like the shot of the shack the most. Probably because of arch on the door way. It looks good though.

The difference in the shots of just the architecture to the shots with the lighting is really impressive. Not that you put the arch. shots in this thread.

By the way, are the buildings enter able? Because, this doesn't look too large, and you could flesh out the buildings to make it a bit more interesting while playing.

But, I guess we're not at the "functionality" stage yet, huh? <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



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 Re: sp_undeadarena
Posted by Nickelplate on Mon Mar 6th at 3:56am 2006

You seem to like the non-flat walls. It's a great-looking thing, but make sure you put clip brushes in the corners to smooth out the walls so players dont get stuck on the walls. You know how annoying that stuff is.

The map LOOKS great. I can't really playtest it ATM, AtM, but I can tell you that it looks EXCELLENTLY designed and my only other recommendation is that you add more tiny details, like small plants and smaller throwable, moveable rocks. Also, on any stone walls or concrete, use Displacements.

Lookin' Good, Bro.




I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com



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 Re: sp_undeadarena
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Mon Mar 6th at 4:04am 2006

Thanks for the comments Nickel. I'll definitely make sure that the walls are clipped to prevent the player getting stuck. I wouldn't want a backpeddling player whose running away from a fast zombie to get stuck on a pillar.

As soon as the map is playtestable, I'll put up a download. I wouldn't expect anything for a few more weeks though.

I noticed you posted in the Intro chapter, did you manage to take a look at the First Alpha chapter?




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 Re: sp_undeadarena
Posted by ReNo on Mon Mar 6th at 5:30am 2006

I'm liking your new red warehouse a lot more than the original stone building. The red warehouse features tried and tested architecture that is utterly believable, but the rather odd design of the stone building kind of undermines the realism and makes the map feel a bit lost.

From the overhead and the odd glimpses in the screenshots, the 90 degree rigidity of the paths is ugly. I can completely see why you've done it (lines up with your displacements, makes texture alignment, on what would be a rather tough to align texture, far easier) and it is excusable, but I think even just introducing short 45 degree sections at the corners could help matters.

Something else to consider would be banking the paths/roads a bit (not just the pitch either - rolling them sideways a bit could be cool), so they aren't completely flat, as well as putting in smoother transitions between different gradients so that its not the currently obvious flat->banked->flat that it currently is. You might be best off making the paths into displacements to achieve this, as otherwise it could get tricky and awkward with lots of cutting into triangles and vertex manipulation, but it depends on the extent of roughness you wanted to introduce. Something else that strikes me about the paths is that you have fairly size sidewalks on either side and a tiny little paved section between them - seems a bit wierd to me, as a path that thin would have no need for sidewalks. I think that the road may look better if set into the terrain rather than sat on top of it too, perhaps extend the width of it a bit and have a non-straight line edge to it as well, so that the entire road part is always exposed but there is some buffer area that has a non-smooth edge to it. Not sure if you know what I mean, so here's a demonstration of a more interesting road...

image

The light glows are a bit strong, but as Crono says it kinda works. Tone it down a bit definately, but don't go too far. Try and introduce a tinge of colour too, as very few lights are such pure white. Don't necessarily get tempted to go all out colourful, but just a very subtle hint would help. In general the map could use more light fixtures too.

In the last shot of the shack, you could afford to smoothen that arch a bit.

More clutter will make things much nicer, and don't be afraid to use liberal amounts of overlays to break up repetitive textures a bit.



Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net



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 Re: sp_undeadarena
Posted by Andrei on Mon Mar 6th at 12:10pm 2006

Looks pretty good so far. One thing that gets to me is the complete absence of detail sprites. Are you having trouble with them aswell or just didn't want em in there?




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 Re: sp_undeadarena
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Mon Mar 6th at 1:23pm 2006

@Crono: I'll fiddle with the glow settings until I find something that works.

Yes, I agree that sewer area looks weak. I'll go back and try to figure out how to make it more believable. I'll probably put some steel support beams in or something along those lines.

Right now the only building that's enterable is the big ugly stone building. The red warehouses are not at this point, but that may change as I keep working on the map. I wanted to start off with the buildings closed, just because I may leave the buildings closed off.

I know we talked about this last night, but I definitely want to investigate the points system you talked about.

And you guessed it, not quite functional yet <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

@ReNo: Yeah I completely agree about the buildings. The Warehouse isn't very unique, but at the same time the realism works better than the other building across the way. After your comment and Spikers comment I think I'm just going to redo the original stone building and make it into a brick garage type building that better fits into the realistic theme I have right now. The stone building is just a vestige of my original plans for the map, which have since changed.

Yeah -- the pathways and roads are some of the weakest parts of my map. I don't know why I didn't go and displace them, I guess I was just afraid of how I was going to deal with the displacement textures if they were curved. I guess I'll just make the displacements overlap to give it the curve on the roads.

You're right, the cobbled paths don't make much sense the way they are now, I'll play with the textures a bit.

Thanks for the shot of that road, I'll definitely try to capture what you've got going on in the 3D view.

I'll make the changes to the light glows and the arch.

I will definitely make an overlay pass once I'm completely satisfied with the architecture and lighting.

Thanks a lot guys for the comments! If anyone else has something to add, please don't be afraid to speak up.




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 Re: sp_undeadarena
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Mon Mar 6th at 1:24pm 2006

You mean on the grass? I hadn't given it much thought but the blend texture I'm using right now doesn't have the grass sprites... towards the end of development I may look into how to edit the vtf file to get it to work. Thanks for pointing that out.




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 Re: sp_undeadarena
Posted by Orpheus on Mon Mar 6th at 2:09pm 2006

I am finding it difficult to envision a one area single player event. How are you planning on this unfolding?

I will comment on the screens soonish.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: sp_undeadarena
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Mon Mar 6th at 3:08pm 2006

Basically, this area is just an arena for freeroaming zombie fun. The player will start out in one area of the map with no weapons, with zombies approaching, and will have to explore the map (in whatevevr order he sees fit) to find weapons and ammunition. There will be limited ammunition and health and I'm considering adding a points system (I hope this is possible) to see how long the player can survive, since there will be wave after wave of approaching zombies thanks to the npc_maker entity (and some areas that hold ammo will trigger fast zombies to leap over the walls and attack, for example). Once the ammo is depleted the player will have to rely on the gravity gun and the crowbar... although there will be a chance for more weapons and ammo based on a reward system. Crono's idea was that after a certain amount of zombies are killed a new weapon will become available, or an NPC will join the fight with the main character. Hopefully this can be easily accomplished with math counters and triggers. I'll have to look into it.

I'll likely release the VMF once I'm done so that others can change the entity settings and customize the level to fit their needs, although the number of people willing to recompile a map is probably slim to none.

If this map turns out ill suited to Singleplayer fun, I can try to redevelop it as a DM map. Although, that would require more thought into adding z-axis gameplay and would probably involve hollowing out the buildings.





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