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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Sat Aug 5th at 11:44am 2006

reaper47:

Gah, I suppose.. it's just worrying that performance is worse than it should be whilst I'm generally doing as much as possible to optimize whilst I work (e.g. I can't just go on an optimization spree to fix performance; I might find a couple small things to tweak, but...). I don't feel quite so pressured now versus when I posted, I took some time off (yeah, a full, like, 1 hour) <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Still rather bothered about this, but certainly don't expect any abandonment. I'll just have to take it one step at a time...

I'm also quite tired. I'll have a good night's sleep soon and probably just map my way through tomorrow for the most part, frustration allowing. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">

Anyways, thanks for your words, reaper47.. we'll see where tomorrow brings us, eh? <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Elon Yariv on Sat Aug 5th at 11:56pm 2006

You should add fire escapes to some buildings, will look nice and will add another acpect to the flow-
You walk in a long alley but in the middle there is a fire escape or maybe on both buildings. This way the player can choose to go foward or climb up the ladder, and it's no longer just another tight corridor, but a crossroad with a spot you can be sniped on.

Edit:

In order to stop camping just don't place the guns and the ammo in the same area. I've been playing in a map where somebody just stood on a really tall building and kept killing everybody in the map. Maybe the crossbow and it's ammo wasn't clustered in one place but he could still find all he needs in pretty safe spots, since most of the action was in the streets. (after he got into position there was no danger at all in the roof tops)
Although I tried to kill him and made it up to the roof tops sevral times, I couldn't find him because I didn't know where he was.

In order to stop such beheivior the maker of that map needed to place the ammo for the crossbow only in lower and more dangerous areas.


Elon Yariv



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Sun Aug 6th at 7:34am 2006

A few thoughts midk.

As per your performance worries, I'd say in general the best time to figure out what will work and what wont work performance wise would be in the planning stages, where you draw out your layout etc. But since you've done so much I think you have 2 choices now, either reshuffle the layout and make things less open and boxy, or just press on and hope that optimization can help as much as possible. Personally, I think you should press on, and even if the map chugs after a ton of optimization, I think it's been a valuable process of learning and mapping. If you personally want this map to be played a lot on DM servers then maybe you should reshuffle the layout to be more performance friendly, but otherwise I'd say just see this map through to the end to the best of your abilities. Maybe this performance worry will help you practice optimization skills.

Buildings are still boxy and repetative, and I especially don't like the huge ones serving as walls to your map. Like in Finger's drawovers, some height and texture variation would be awesome. I'm pretty sure the buildings I'm talking about aren't done, but I would love to see some changes (even with your performance worries). Instead of 2 big buildings bordering the alley corner, why not make 5 or so buildings that are connected and scrunched up together, but that are different heights and textured differently.

The ladder going over the windows seems kinda strange, but I think it can stay.

I don't really like the light model on the exterior of the building, but its more because I've never liked the way that propped looked (so heavy on top, with such a thin neck) so if you like it you should probably keep it.

I hope you don't abandon this map. I'd like to see you push yourself and work on this map to its fullest potential.





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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Sun Aug 6th at 8:22am 2006

Hey, Morphine.

Two things to say about performance. I guess I'll say this first since it's shorter and simpler: performance isn't all-that-bad. It seems to almost improve with each build for some reason and I don't know why. 40FPS as of the latest build looking down the street. It used to be 20.

Second, longer thing, which applies less now that the performance seems to be going up: I honestly hadn't and wouldn't expect such performance issues from this map considering some of, for example, other 3rd party maps and even some of Valve's areas in HL2. Some problems include leaves stretching to the top skybox boundary of the map, which can "see" everything outside the map. I'll have to fix this with more careful skybox-brush placement or some really annoying hintbrushing. Dunno which yet. Vvis isn't so happy with 4 hours for the last compile. Still plenty to do about that though. I just .. it feels like I really aren't asking much, I haven't loaded the map with props or brushes I don't feel, my map doesn't seem out of the ordinary as far as detail.. just gotta start hintbrushing I guess. I learned a few techniques from dm_island17's VMF file (thanks for posting that, mazemaster) including areaportalwindows and fade distances which I can "resort" to later if I must.

Bottom line: Performance seems to be getting better (been doing some tweaking) and through a lot of hintbrushing I can probably squeeze a few more FPS out of this, so.. yay. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Buildings are not only boxy and repetitive, but about 2 minutes of work each. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> I wish I wasn't so ab.. what's the word.. absurd.. abYSMAL, yes; abysmal at architecture and design. I'd love to detail these, but I just suck at it. I'll try regardless. I like your 5-in-a-row idea (as a rough estimate).

The ladder.. hm.. we'll see. This all is just getting laid out. I'll definitely go back and scout out little things like this to see if I can do anything about them (move it over or something, or replace it with like.. fire escapes..).

Light model. Hm. Dunno about this. Just a way for me to get lighting into this area ATM ("at the moment", not "addicted to morphine" <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">) - if these weren't here I'd get "where's all the light coming from?", if there was no light I'd get "why is it so dark down there?"... and so on.. vicious cycle. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif"> Maybe as soon as I finish the current modeling competition entry I'll try modeling some lights for this area, or come up with something else.

Don't worry about abandonment.. I'm not nearly to that point yet. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Just semi-frustrated... I guess like a midlife crisis... mid-map crisis? <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Finger on Sun Aug 6th at 9:12am 2006

Any chance you might get a download of the map soon, so we can check it out ingame?





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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Sun Aug 6th at 12:02pm 2006

Yeah, in all probability sometime before the map comes out, and probably soonish; I just want some more time to try to get a bit more performance as well as get the layout finished (nearly there now), and some of the buildings looking nicer, etc.. just some general "work".

As I'm nearing the point where I'm ready to release a beta, I'll let everyone know.. I think it'd be nice to schedule a gameplay date where I could round up some members from here if possible as well as some friends, etc.. as well as open up the server for anyone else to join in, and give the map a nice playtest with a lot of people to see how it holds up. I know probably a lot of people don't read this thread or this section of the forums, so maybe I'll make a news post if that's still sounding good when the beta's nearly out, but for anyone who's reading this, does it sound interesting (a large playtest)?


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Sun Aug 6th at 12:17pm 2006

Yeah, I'd like to playtest it, and I think it would warrant a frontpage newspost. It'd have to be after August 15th though, otherwise I'm still in China and can't participate.



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Sun Aug 6th at 1:21pm 2006

You return August 15th? Hmm.. sounds good.. I expected later. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">

Yeah, I think a "beta release" or "playtest event" might not warrant a news post seperately, but combined perhaps <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Just created a hole from the corner building interior to the alleyway, and redid plenty of destruction in the destroyed building as well as threw out (well, "hid") all those props that you mentioned looked quite weird lightingwise and replaced it with a displacement textured with rubble which also allows you to walk around a bit, a bit more flow (not cut off by the debris props anymore). Small things...

I do think replacing the debris props will help towards performance though. I had just a *ton* of debris props all kind of jumbled together to create this mound of debris, and considering the holes in every side of the building these were pretty much always drawn.. replacing it with a simple displacement should really help. Also I have a lot of destruction props in there in random places and I was thinking about using the "fade scale" for these since although technically they're usually visible from outside, you can't see them at all unless you're really in there.

Some things to remember in case I need to resort to prop fading (seeming less likely as time goes on). <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Sun Aug 6th at 9:21pm 2006

Sigh, so after seven hours of sleep I wake up, excited to test the compile I did overnight for the first time in a while with some larger changes and performance improvements, and I wake up to find that... vvis is still going.

Now vrad has started, I'm going to end-process it (that just cancels that portion of the compile, vvis' progress will still be there and well) and then have a look at why it went so slow. Maybe I forgot to func_detail some wreckage, or... *shrugs and sighs*.

This leads me to ask the question I've wanted to in a while.. anyone reading this thread, can you tell me as best you can remember how long vvis took on your final compile of your map called ______? Does 4 hours (last compile's time) seem right for this map? 2 hours? 7 hours?

I really don't think it should be this high... I'd like a second or third opinion. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Thanks!


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by reaper47 on Sun Aug 6th at 10:22pm 2006

vvis above half an hour is critical. 1 hour if it's a really big map. 2 hours if it's a 1:1 model of Manhattan. Forgetting to make some stairs a func detail or having other, complex, no-func_detail brush geometry can double or tripple compile times easily.

Do you know this optimisation tutorial?:

http://www.student.kun.nl/rvanhoorn/Optimization.htm

It covers pretty much everything.



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Sun Aug 6th at 10:40pm 2006

Wow.. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_eek.gif">

Yeah, I've seen that page before (it's been a while though). I'll run through it again soon, thanks for the link.

I'm always extremely func_detail happy and so this comes as a surprise to me.. I really bet it has something to do with the hill and how I've put a large nodraw brush under it and func_detailed it.

I let vrad finish (final compile time: vvis 7h, vrad 30m) so I'm gonna go test it now... brb. Something is definitely askew..


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Sun Aug 6th at 11:24pm 2006

Just tested it in-game, it runs quite well in fact (45-50FPS looking down the street), basically nothing below 40 as far as I saw.

So I decided I should set up glview to see what the hell's going on.. and I got this.

I don't know how it should look, but that.. looks.. bad.

Gonna have a look at what Valve did for func_detail etc in some of their sdk VMF files (d1_trainstation_02 namely) and try glview there as well to see how many leaves they have.

Thanks for the heads up, reaper47.


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Mon Aug 7th at 6:48am 2006

Alright, so "jesus!" (in a very deep loud "goddammit" voice), I found what caused the longass compile time..

There are two sets of stairs in the hotel which were set to block visibility up until last night. I decided to set them up to be func_detail and just seal around them with NODRAW so it would be a quicker compile and less leaves to deal with. Long story short, I didn't seal one off properly, and so you could see through it into this awful *network* of just.. leaves galore in this abyss inside the hollow hotel.

Fixed it even better than it should have worked the way I did it last night. I also basically completely remodeled the corner building interior to be uber-efficient as well as tweaked some leaves on the roof... and I also sealed off some building areas.. basically this next compile should compile *quick* and the ingame performance should be beyond what it's been in a long while.

Thank god for glview. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Mon Aug 7th at 8:01am 2006

Alright... for my fourth post in a row, I'd just like to mention that I've just done a test vvis-only compile and the verdict is 55 minutes and 1 second.

I'm just getting started... <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif"> Excellent.


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by reaper47 on Mon Aug 7th at 10:49am 2006

I'm glad it helped. Looking at the screen I think one giant hintbrush in the top (sky area) of the map that touches the roofs exactly should help a lot. Not only for compile times but also fps load. Right now the vis leafs of each street can see each other.



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Mon Aug 7th at 7:13pm 2006

Yeah, reaper47 - I did put one across the map as low as possible (touching the roof of the hotel).

I also need to put some along the street maybe around 128 units high so that people on the street won't be considered able to see behind all the buildings and stuff.


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Sat Aug 12th at 1:33am 2006

It's been a while, so here's a brief update.

Been working plenty on optimization lately, vacuum-sealing empty buildings, etc. Doing well enough now that I'll worry about it more later and start back on map design.

Replaced the ladder to the sniper spot in the destroyed building with a fire escape system. Here is a picture of what I've got.

Created some damage in the parking lot (a crater). Can't find a screenshot of it and I guess it's for the best since I don't really care for how it looks now.

In fact I'd like to come up with some way to integrate an underground parking garage area - a small one-level one - basically just the same size as the parking lot, underground, that people could go through. It'd be nice if I could tie something like that in with the corner building so you could go directly into the garage from the building, from the garage to the parking lot, etc. I just need to kind of come up with a way to integrate it (how do cars get in there? a ramp down from the parking lot maybe). Thoughts?

That's about all for now. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Sat Aug 12th at 4:26am 2006

A small ramp down to a large bay door type set up, with a little gaurdhouse/ticket booth type thing.

The fire escape looks pretty good. Not having railings on the sides is kinda weird, but I think with gameplay in mind omitting them was a good choice.





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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Sat Aug 12th at 4:55am 2006

Ah, I forgot/didn't consider railings. I didn't remember seeing them in the reference picture I used, but looking back, they are there. Hmm. I'll see how they fit in, maybe; thanks for noticing.

@ parking garage: Yeah, something like this. I started roughing it out a bit earlier. A ramp down to an underground lot, and I'd like to connect it so that:

- Players can access the underground area through the corner building.
- Players can access the underground area through a hole/crater in the exterior parking lot.
- Players can go between underground and above-ground via the ramp.
- Players can go between underground and above-ground via stairs on one side or the other; maybe both.

Just an initial idea, I think it would be cool if you could have several ways of entering or exiting the area and using it to your advantage.

I've also got some techniques in mind for sprucing up some buildings, so prepare for possibly some screenshots of buildings with details soon. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Sat Aug 12th at 5:45am 2006

Hmm, so I'm actually kind of pressed for space to put the ramp yet leave room for cars to move around well. This kind of left me with the idea of creating a parking garage (like a several-stories-tall concrete structure)... Hmm.


-- midkay




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