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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by French Toast on Mon Sep 4th at 6:27am 2006

About the first screen; I understand it's prelimenary, but I have to get this out there. Crumble the staircase more. It looks odd the way the walls around it have broken, but the stairs themselves remain perfect. Take large chunks out of the side, and then make smaller bits missing, and possible clip over them.

It just looks wrong right now...



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Mon Sep 4th at 6:30am 2006

Thanks, er.. French? Toast? Neither seem to suit you alone... so... siiiigh.

Thanks, French Toast. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

I'll do that for sure... I designed this when the rubble was all here and it definitely looks weird right now. I'll probably just redo it from scratch now that the theme in this area has changed.


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by French Toast on Mon Sep 4th at 6:44am 2006

Yeah, I figured you'ld get to it all <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">

Also, Frenchy, FT, Toast, they all work <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Mon Sep 4th at 8:56am 2006

Haha. I choose "Frenchy".

On topic: Over the past hour and a half I completely transformed this map in my eyes. I absolutely cannot wait to playtest a build (probably tomorrow) and show you guys what I'm up to. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> I think this will really improve gameplay and performance at the same time...


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by reaper47 on Mon Sep 4th at 8:57am 2006

This part in screen 2 is a great little detail. Perfectly fits the destroyed building while it's rather unique (at least I don't recall seeing it in any other map yet which is a good sign).
It's still a hole between one of the most detailed indoor section and the large, central outdoor area. It could be a huge performance problem. Maybe some very carefully planned hint-brushing could help but be aware that this hole could add a lot to to performance problems in the map.
Also, because people are starting the realism arguments... the building has many, many windows on the outside...... Window "overlays" should do the job for the inside.

The buildings in the back of the parking lot (screen 6) still look too flat compared to the others. They're dominating a large, open space and should provide a little more eyecandy. The brush-based fireladder to the left could easily make 20-30% of the FPS, so if you're still searching for performance tweaks try replacing some of the brushes by texures or models or consider moving the whole construction to the back of the building, hiding it well from vis. The engine doesn't really care about how big a polygon is. So many small ones at one place can be bad.



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Mon Sep 4th at 9:26pm 2006

reaper47:

Thanks for the comments about screen 2. I'll figure something out for the windows, maybe I'll end up having to go the direction you took with resident - brick-filled windows.. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

About the scaffolding in screen 6- I already rebuilt it completely using four-sided posts instead of 8-sided ones... looks much better in wireframe now. It's not in the same place anymore - hint hint - so that combined with the rebuild should mean it's not really a problem anymore.


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by reaper47 on Tue Sep 5th at 9:00am 2006

But every stair, for example, adds three polygons which makes a few hundered. Plus the polygons of the posts, probably splitting up each other to even more (yea, even func_details do that, they're like normal brushes)...

That is a huge polygon salad in one place that is added to the already pretty big and detailed surroundings.



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Tue Sep 5th at 12:54pm 2006

Polygon salad, haha. Hahaha.. that's the best phrase I've heard in like... well.. several days. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">

Hmm.. that is correct, the stairs are the "problem" with the scaffolding. The mess of pink lines has been mostly eliminated around the posts, but the stairs are still a slight problem.. dunno what to do with them. The scaffolding is no longer in plain sight anyways, shouldn't be drawn most of the time.


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Tue Sep 5th at 9:37pm 2006

I don't want to act like I've totally.. you know.. improved the map by so much percent, but.. man. I haven't played on the latest "design" yet but I can't wait. The latest iteration feels so much more "deathmatchy" and so much less "visual demonstration of a wide-open residential neighborhood". This is absolutely the feel *I* love and I'm so glad that I achieved it. It just feels perfect for a game of deathmatch. The feeling I get running around this build...

I've also began working on custom textures. Thus far I've created my own (well, modified the existing heavily) textures for sidewalks and corners, streets (dashed-line and non), and the general "pavement" that isn't a sidewalk nor a street (all around the map, surrounding buildings and the park etc). The originals just felt too videogamelike, I certainly decided that after making my own. They were nice to look at, but just.. unrealistic.. for example the general pavement texture I used was gray and it had these little flecks of blue in it.. it's like.. what? And the sidewalks were too littered with trash and too shiny. The roads were a bit too cracked yet stony... I love the more monotone, realistic feel of these custom textures.. that's monotone in a good way.

Not quite ready yet to post some screens, just an update to say that I'm really excited about this level now.. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Thu Sep 7th at 2:11am 2006

No map-screens yet. Not quite. Still too busy with it. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif"> Wanted to show you what I've done with a few of the textures though.

Here are four textures of Valve's. Clockwise from upper left I'm using them as: pavement/concrete, dashed roads, non-dashed roads, and sidewalks. They look nice - I mean, eye pleasing - probably because of the somewhat cartoonish colors (not cartoonish per se, but.. you know.. visual-interest-above-realism videogame approach). I went for a more monotone, realistic approach.. I'd probably prefer the colors but I really like the way the ones I modified came out and love the contrast they make with the buildings.. dullish streets and sidewalks versus green grass and all the colorful buildings. Delicious. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">

Ingame shot, showing basically nothing, except a building and park are both now aligned to the sidewalk.

Looking forward to putting a lot of custom content into this map - mostly, if not entirely, texturewise.


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Sun Sep 10th at 6:22am 2006

Hey guys.

I have a small update for you all, not ready to reveal the "new layout" yet (gosh, feels like I'm really hyping it up) <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> - what I am wanting to talk about is lighting. If this is too long to read, could you please skip to the last paragraph and tell me your thoughts? Thanks.

I've been feeling fine about the map's lighting outdoors, mostly. The only two slight worries I have are (1) darkness in some areas - maybe some people would take a look at the map and say "too dark, I won't play it". (2) performance. This *could* be a performance hit - all the spotlights and beams... not that big a deal in any case.

Back up for a moment: been working on custom textures the last couple days. Majorly improving the ones I've already done. The roads are now black as in asphalt, the sidewalks are much more realistic now (no more lines running up the middle and stuff). Both have normal maps now as well. I showed a friend one of the textures I'm working on in-game. Then he said the map should be lighter.

This intrigued me for two reasons. One, because he originally suggested darkness. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Two, because I'd kind of wanted to try recompiling the map with bright outdoor lighting like I used to have just to see how it looked. So I did. I copied+pasted a light_env from a very old copy, changed the skybox texture, and compiled to test it (1-and-a-half minute vvis FTW!). When I loaded it up it was like a breath of fresh air.

I've liked the lighting in this map because it's moody and atmospheric. The spotlights against the sky look great IMO. This makes me wonder what it is about the sunlight that appeals to me. My guess is that I've been working on this so long and playing it so much that the lighting has become mundane to me and so even a change for the worse would look better because, well, it's a change.

I have a couple screenshots, from the brighter version and then a previously-unseen bit of lighting - earlier morning and very yellow. I tried to kind of look away from the majorer changes I've done so far so don't inspect these screens too closely <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif"> You can see the new textures etc...

Midday lighting, as seen in the extremely early versons of the map. Ignore the end-of-the-world-at-the-end-of-the-road please <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif"> Do not, however, ignore the new road texture! :o

Sunrise-ish lighting. Earlier on, more yellow (too yellow probably).. and quite bright.

I don't feel particularly attracted to either of these, but just showing you guys. Anybody have any suggestions? I kind of want to make the map brighter overall, maybe just choose a slightly brighter sky than the current one and give it some more intensity.. or.. I dunno.

Last paragraph, final question: What do you think of the way the map is lit now? Reaper47 has expressed his affinity for it. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> I'm interested in other opinions as well as more detailed ones, though. Does it seem too dark? What about the sky? What do you think? I really don't feel like it'd be a nice payoff for the several months of work on this map to have it rejected by most for being too dark. Thanks for any thoughts.


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Naklajat on Sun Sep 10th at 9:31pm 2006

My suggestion would be to build a small, simple map using your texture set (and sort of the same architectural style) to test the lighting, so you could try several different lighting styles quickly. I think the "sunrise-ish" lighting is too yellow, tbh.

This HL Engine Lighting tutorial by 3D-Mike has some pretty sound advice on lighting.


=o



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Mon Sep 11th at 2:24am 2006

Thanks, Baron.

Actually compiles are pretty quick - 20 minutes to fully compile (1 and a half minute vvis, 19-minute-or-so vrad) so full-map compiles are quite reasonable. That happens to be the exact length of a Seinfeld episode and I've got over a hundred to watch whenever, so for example last night I did several compiles with different lighting, watching an episode per compile. It worked out perfectly.

Also thanks for the link, it looks quite useful and I'll read it all now.

I adjusted some lighting in the current "dark" style and recompiled it and I think it's going to be just fine. Although the premise is sunrise which implies dark, as long as the streetlights are bright enough it certainly still qualifies as a bright map.. the style of lighting is simply different. I'm sticking with it for now. I just need to get more ambient lighting or more lighting in some areas that don't have streetlights. I'm workin' on it. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Also, I'd like to release some screenshots tonight or tomorrow showing off what I've got done before, if plans go accordingly, I do a lot as far as detailing all the buildings.


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Tue Sep 12th at 2:22am 2006

Alright, time to finally show the layout I've reworked and been tweaking/adjusting lately. It's not exactly finalized but it's really close to what I'm aiming for.

Screen 1, looking down the street from the debris pile at the apartment building's end. You can see the parking lot's totally gone, the new road/sidewalk/pavement textures, and a taller cafe/restaurant building. This shows the more condensed and trimmed, faster-paced layout I'm going for. Considerably less open space (aside from the missing parking lot, the park is quite smaller - maybe 2/3 the size it used to be). This limits sniping but not nearly to the point where it's futile. image

Screen 2, looking down from the top of the hill. Missing parking lot, taller cafe building.. new textures.. yadda yadda yadda.

Screen 3, inside the destroyed building. Not so much new done to this except several suspended-by-rebar debris chunks which you can see in the foreground and also by the sniping spot.

Screen 4. Cafe Baltic and FOTO! image Still gotta redo those crosswalk textures, they're stock HL2 from when I used the cracked-road texture versus the new custom pavementy-one.

Screen 5, view from the sniper tower. Considering removing this and replacing it with like a more man-made makeshift wooden-board sniping spot off the edge of the building or so. Or maybe I'll just have no tower at all.. hmm. Gotta think about this and mess around.

Screen 6. Don't worry, I didn't turn it into a RATS map! image This screenshot I crouched in so you could see the lights. I reworked all the lights in this area to be a bit darker and more focused.

Screen 7, just looking out on the map from the corner where buildings meet. Gotta lighten this area... somehow. image

Thanks for having a look, all suggestions and thoughts are appreciated. I'm about to head into the dreaded building-detailing phase, and shaping up a lot of the visual stuff now. Still tweaking the layout and lighting a bit as well. I'd like to have a second beta out soon.. maybe at the end of this week. If not, I'll just go full-steam-ahead for the final version which I'd like to have out within a couple weeks.


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Tue Sep 12th at 3:23am 2006

I really like Screen 6, along with the more condensed feel of the map. However, I have to be honest and say I prefered the previous street textures. I don't know if it's just that I'm more used to the older ones, or if it's that the new ones seem too clean, and almost cell shaded looking. I dunno, it could just be me.



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Tue Sep 12th at 4:07am 2006

Hmm.

They are rather clean and I'd half-expected to kind of tweak that around with decals, but I don't really know how it would/will come out.. I could dirty them up a bit in Photoshop, I'll have to give that a try. I think I'd at least end up going with some worn areas where the tires would be... Any other thoughts on them?

Thanks for that and the screen 6 comment. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Tue Sep 12th at 4:17am 2006

Well, to be more specific, in screen 1 the road when compared to the buliding textures just seems too clean, smooth, and low contrast. Like I said earlier, it seems to give it a less realistic look, almost a cell-shaded feel.

I don't know how to create custom textures, and I applaud your desire to make your own assets, but in this case I just prefer the default street textures.



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Tue Sep 12th at 4:22am 2006

I'll see what I can do about that. I personally like the texture but I agree that compared to a lot of the HL2 stuff (buildings etc) it's a bit too sanitary. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> I'll see what I can do about that..


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Tue Sep 12th at 4:26am 2006

Thanks for taking my thoughts on board. I hope you can come up with something you like. And even if you don't, it's always good PS practice, right?



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Tue Sep 12th at 4:44am 2006

Definitely. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif"> Appreciate the suggestions.

Something I forgot to do on my initial post of screenshots tonight, a basic todo list:

- More custom/tweaked textures.
- Do the skybox (deleted the last attempt as soon as I reshaped the map).
- Some layout tweaks (condense things a bit more if at all possible).
- Interior de-boringness-pass. I've got mixed feelings about the corner building's interior, it's rather a maze of hallways and corridors and a bunch of closed doors - basically an excuse to have an interior way to get up to the roof. Although this is definitely the longest-standing building and overall "feature" of the map so far I'm getting closer and closer to deleting it ENTIRELY, and rebuilding it up from scratch with a completely different design (split roof with different height levels, more building detail all-round, different interior design if at all). Dunno exactly what to do here, but I'm thinking about it..
- Optimization.. is.. almost entirely done. Map runs quite well now - nearly as good as e.g. Overwatch - and compiles as fast as I could ever possibly hope to ask for (20 minutes total, non-hdr). Some tweaks, but.. we'll see.
- Some work on the destroyed building, with more broken interior walls to give more of an impression that this was a residential building with rooms..
- A new interior for the hotel that connects to the apartment buildings with the extrusions. This links three different interior rooms together with at least two ways out of each.. I like the idea.

That's just a quick list.. I'll update it if I think of anything else. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Thoughts on these thoughts are welcome as well!

Also, I haven't mentioned this before, but I'm strongly considering releasing the full VMF along with all the textures I've created for this map in the end - regardless of how/if I've used them. It's likely. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


-- midkay




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