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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Mon Jul 24th at 9:07pm 2006

Addicted:

I always compile overnight (and continually less often during the day) considering how long it takes, usually around two hours with HDR lighting. Cubemaps worked today, so I took a few screenshots of the area you wondered about (inside the semidestroyed building) and also made a kind of aerial layout map (went a bit photoshop-crazy on that).

Layout map - 1280x960, ~300kb. I know Orpheus will moan about this, but if I can just have one screenshot to go all-out as far as quality and resolution, let it be this one. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> It looked baddish at lower resolutions and quite ugly at lower qualities. http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/1597/residentiallayoutfy0.jpg

Screen 1 of destroyed building; bottom floor. In the corner of the area right next to where you'd walk in from the side: http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/6051/residential1xr2.jpg

Screen 2 of destroyed building; up the stairs seen in the first shot, right next to one of the camping spots. There's an exit as well as a ladder leading up to the second, "new" camp spot: http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/886/residential2qz7.jpg

Screen 3 of destroyed building; up the ladder. You can see both camp spots. There's a crossbow up here: http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/2987/residential3dz8.jpg

Don't worry, you and the guys I played with have kept me busy with plenty to do. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif"> The rubble bit is a good idea, in fact I tried it in place of those wooden ramps I used to have at first, but it.. well, to put it mildly, didn't work. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Orpheus did indeed have some good ones. Breezeways probably won't really work here since these are apartments or similar, not single houses... also, I can't find a fire hydrant model. I could make one in 3dsmax, but I was reading the page describing how to get custom models into Source - looks quite painful. Phone booths are a good idea, I'll add them at some point - mailboxes I have in one building. Dirt lots, right, that comes with the new displacement park, and billboards.. yeah. Somewhere or other. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Yeah, Valve should really let HL2/DM maps use CS:S and DOD:S content.. all of it should be accessible by all games. : I could really use some of that stuff.

And thanks for the compliment. I should take those maps down... <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Happy to be on the recieving end of your crits. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

-- Gwil:

Yeah, I suppose <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif"> I was going to have it like hanging off the ceiling on a wire, swinging, and maybe sparking, but I was never able to get phys_lengthconstraint to work right. I'll give it another go sometime, or at least remove the light entities.. thanks for pointing it out.



Quote
 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Tue Jul 25th at 12:07am 2006

? quoting midk

Yeah, I suppose I was going to have it like hanging off the ceiling on a wire, swinging, and maybe sparking, but I was never able to get phys_lengthconstraint to work right. I'll give it another go sometime, or at least remove the light entities.. thanks for pointing it out.

I have to run off to class soonish, so I can't get into the whole reply, but as far as that light goes, you could use one of the broken light props from Nova Prospect where half of the tube is disconnected from the ceiling. You might have to push the prop further into the ceiling to make it fit with the hallway (since its a pretty tall prop) but it would be easier than messing with phys_lengthconstraint (and less resource heavy).





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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Tue Jul 25th at 3:59am 2006

OK looked at the new screens.

Looking at the overview, I had a few ideas.

-There doesn't seem to be a lot of potential for flow through the map. When I DM, I don't particularly like to camp one spot until I die, but rather I enjoy coming up with a route I usually take and do laps, picking up health and ammo and fragging along the way. Some of the buildings in the map only look like they have 1 entrance, and other areas (like the bottom left part of the map) look like there's unused space where no one would bother heading to because it's either out in the open and/or no weapons ammo there.

-I'd put 1 or 2 more entrances into the buildings, so that people can enter them easier, and just have more choices when it comes to moving about the map. Also, I'd punch a hole through certain buildings, or just add entrances, to increase flow and choices. Obviously, if you do add new areas (I hope you do) you'll need to put ammo or health down to entice them into that area or to preven that route from being ignored.

-Some of the spawn points, especially the top one near the corner of the building and the wall, seem like a death trap. No good weapons nearby, and no cover or immediate choices. Getting spawned in the back corner of a parking lot with only a submachine gun and no nearby building entrances looks like it would be frustrating. Just my thought not having played it.

-Here's how I'd add some routes (done in Paint, sorry):

image

The idea is just to get more flow around the outside of the map, give people more options when it comes to movement and cover and gives them a chance to escape is they're getting peppered with sniper fire. Just my opinion though <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> It would be a lot more work for you, and you'd have to use your imagination to make each area, hallway, lobby etc. unique and easily recognizeable. It'll be a challenge sure, but I think it'll be worth it.

Screen 1: Too much debris I think. Especially on the ground further from the stairs. Additionally, the exterior of the building doesn't indicate this level of interior destruction. Either clean up the inside a bit more, or dirty up and destroy the outside to balance it out. Overall a more interesting area than I expected, especially with the bent girders and the prop integration.

Screen 2: Some prop lighting inconsistencies, but I don't know if that can be avoided. Is the ladder the only way up to the sniper spot? If so, I think you should consider adding another route up top, just so the person camping up there has more to worry about.

Screen 3: Flares are a nice lighting choice, but the 2nd floor is too thin. Why not sandwhich 3 types of materials (like tile on top of concrete on top of ceiling material) as a crossection of the ceiling/floor. I think it would look more realistic than 4 units of concrete. Also, this building doesn't really look like a building from the inside. Destruction and rubble is good, but you need to give some indicators that this was a real place, a real building. Retexture the walls and the floor and then destroy them. Ie. place rubble on them, overlays, cut out jagged sections where there was a collapse. If you were to do it over I'd suggest doing a pretty quick build of a real clean building, and then destroy it systematically, adding details etc. Just so you can make sure it feels like a real place before you demolish it. Also, make the 2ndfloor jagged, its way too straight edged along the side with the ladder.

Additionally, where are all the windows that I see from the outside? The building is covered with window textures, but on the inside its just a wall.

I'm sorry if my suggestions all are pretty time-consuming, but if you're up for it I think the result would be worth it. And if nothing else, you'll improve <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Thanks for the layout and for the new screens.





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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Tue Jul 25th at 5:52am 2006

Love the flow map. It looks great. I've been wanting to do something like this - I mean, alternate routes and stuff like that. I've been playing some DoD:S lately and Valve's maps always impress me as far as giving players plenty of choices as far as routes from anywhere to anywhere. I did a bit of that with the destroyed building - two ways in, four ways out - but mostly everything else is quite straightforward and sealed off, and I'd really like to give something like your map illustrates a go. More entrances, more routes.

The spawn points - also right. I might simply delete them all when I'm done with the map and replace them in ideal positons. I haven't had any complaints or problems with the mentioned corner one, but it could certainly be moved elsewhere.

Screen 1: Yep, the outside's just textured like a building so it doesn't look like a concrete box. I'll blow out the windows or.. something... we'll see. smiley Certainly agree that the inside+outside don't quite mesh..

Screen 2: Alas, I don't think it can [be fixed]. Maybe I'll replace the props with a displacement or something. An alternate route up would be interesting. Maybe from the back via a ladder or something.. that should come as part of the "adding more flow" bit.

Screen 3: Ah, the floor is quite thin, you're right. This entire upper level came as a total afterthought of adding the hill.. I just had to kind of throw it in there quickly so we had the functionality, but I didn't have time to detail it very much. Layered textures is a good idea. Rebar, chunks of concrete, all that must come as well, of course...

The windows? Oh, um.. they were erased by.. a.. residential neighborhood-hating Source lord. Oh, I mean - yessir, I'll do it soon. smiley That whole outside and inside needs to be retextured, even..

Stuff is piling up for me to do indeed, but keep it coming as long as you can. It's really nice hearing others' thoughts. smiley Thanks for the layout suggestions and tips!



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Tue Jul 25th at 7:19am 2006

Additionally, when you add routes along the edges, don't just do long straight corridors, but rather have a variety of rooms and areas. For example, you could have certain bits of walls torn down or blown apart so that the player is running through apartment after apartment, instead of just down the corridor. Additionally, texture different buildings uniquely on the inside so they don't all blend together, or use some sort of architectural themes to clue the player in on which part of the map he's in (ie. a s**tty, dirty apartment in one area, and a high class hotel in another). Make each area memorable so new players can learn the map quicker.

Glad you liked the flow chart thing. Keep pluggin'!





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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Tue Jul 25th at 7:56am 2006

Yep, all sounds good.

Been feeling a bit tired today - I'll go to bed quite soon. But I mustered up the determination to create another interior - another store (this one, I think, I'll call a restaurant <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">) next to the other one - on the ground floor of a building which you said looked like one of the best areas of the map. Now you can go from the parking lot into this new area. I want to also let the player go from this area directly to the older store - a blown out wall - instead of going out of this area around into the store. I also want to give a passage from store -> alleyway. Straight on through, as suggested roughly by your, er, flow chart. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

I'll try and finish off the restaurant->store->alley connections tonight and post up a screen or two tomorrow.

Also, I just remembered. I was playing dod_jagd earlier with a friend and took some note on the way Valve dealt with destroyed buildings (which look excellent). One technique I spotted frequently was roughly-clipped jagged world brushes lined with rounded displacements around the jaggies. It's quite a nice effect. I can't find any screenshots on my disk, nor any online, but I'll snag a few tomorrow. Kind of hard to describe.

Anyways, off for the night - laters.



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Wed Jul 26th at 7:04am 2006

Something I want to mention - I've been thinking for a long while about turning this into a darker, evening or early-morning map, instead of a bright, sunny day one.

The reasons are mostly that bright maps are fairly typical, and that I think it'd be cool to have street lights illuminating the roads and stuff. Potentially a lot more atmospheric/artistic.. glowing streetlights and lamps with a pink, dark, cloudy sky at dawn versus a simple bright sun against a light blue, clearish day.

I only tried a few compiles tonight to test a prelimiary test effect out (chose a skybox and set up light_environment and then did some streetlight illumination). I already like what I'm getting although it certainly needs some tweak work. If I could get it to look like I imagine in my head, I think it'd look really excellent.

Here are some example screens. Note that I used cordon on this compile to cut off some compex interiors so I could compile this quickly enough. I've tried to take the screenshots from angles where it's not so obvious that brushes are cut off, etc, but if you see anything strange, don't worry. image

1) http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/3572/residentialdark1gq2.jpg

2) http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5033/residentialdark2ex5.jpg

3) http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/6877/residentialdark3px8.jpg

4) http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/4896/residentialdark4nk4.jpg

I think the street lighting should be a bit brighter and more "harsh". It looks a bit too .. even. I think. Any thoughts, anyone?



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Crono on Wed Jul 26th at 7:33am 2006

I just want to point out that every road on a hill I've ever come across has been convex. Since a concave road would suffer more damage due to lower vehicles.


Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Wed Jul 26th at 9:23am 2006

Definitely looks more interesting, but I'm not sure its dark enough for streetlights to be on (or to be as harsh as you want). I personally like the skybox and the color you've chosen, but if you want to go for more lighting contrast using the streetlights, you'll probably have to pick a slightly darker skybox.

Just a thought, if you're going for a destroyed theme, it may be hard to come up with a way to light things, unless there is still power despite the destruction.





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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Wed Jul 26th at 9:34am 2006

Yeah, maybe a darker skybox. Hmm. I'll have to see what's available.. quite few "dark" ones for HL2. I like the mix of pinkish sky/light with barely-light-blue street lamps.

If Valve would only let us DM mappers use CS/DOD skyboxes. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/sad.gif">


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Wed Jul 26th at 9:42am 2006

Custom skies are also an option, although I don't know where to find any, so you'll have to do some googling, perhaps.



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Wed Jul 26th at 12:15pm 2006

Yeah, probably not something I'd like to do (custom skybox material).

Sticking with the current sky for now, but darkened the light_env slightly. Also added point_spotlights which should look nice, and added more lighting in a few places (lights outside store/restaurant and another apartment building). Will compile overnight and I hope (even feel slightly confident for once) that it'll look good when it's done. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Probably some screens tomorrow at least to show the progress...


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Wed Jul 26th at 9:30pm 2006

Alright, so I did said recompile. Here are a few screens:

1: http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/4899/residential1uw8.jpg
2: http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/6123/residential2jm6.jpg
3, new restaurant area visible (wall is too jagged, I know) image : http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/5774/residential3vs1.jpg
4: http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/4241/residential4hg2.jpg
5: http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/3474/residential5bz6.jpg
6: http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2899/residential6zh5.jpg
7: http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2716/residential7ul1.jpg
8: http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/7472/residential8rp3.jpg

I'm quite liking the way it looks, although the sun ought to be slightly darker still, and probably the streetlight beams a bit more focused; as well as a bit more light in darker areas (notably the upper right corner of the park) which will probably come with new interiors (porch lights, light from inside spilling out, etc).


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by G.Ballblue on Wed Jul 26th at 9:42pm 2006

Looks like an improvement -- some things:

Screen 6 looks a bit odd. I have no idea why -- maybe it's just the camera.

I'd suggest that you stop relying on the huge combine walls as a "hull" for the map. It's ugly, and it leaves little room for there to be anything else behind it -- which brings me to the fact that there doesn't appear to be any architecture behind the combine walls, except for that water tower. I'd also suggest to get a nice pretty, 3d sky box image

Also, that hillish road that you have made looks a bit too steep. I'd say that a European city would have flattened it out, and a lot of the "curve" that the hill has would have been removed.

Edit: And I don't think a play ground would be built on such a steep angle :P


Breaking the laws of mapping since 2003 and doing a damn fine job at it



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Wed Jul 26th at 11:16pm 2006

Thanks, G -

The combine walls, as discussed earlier (quite a long thread by now, so I doubt you've read the bit on that, no worries) do need to go, for the most part. A few ideas were mentioned and discussed, and that's something I should be getting around to very soon. As soon as I get the map sealed off with other methods I'll begin extending the environment and fleshing out the skybox (I want to wait until I know what's visible from where before I begin placing things around).

As for the hill - iunno, maybe it was just recently built? ;D Going back to flatten it out a bit is a possibility but not something I had planned on (took a long time to sculpt it up to the way it is). Quite possible, though, I appreciate the mention - I'll think about it.

@ playground: Well, maybe the slide and monkeybars need to go then. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Hmm.. maybe if I had walls surround the grass area from the ground up to the sidewalk level all around so it was kind of a flatter area... something like this: http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/8382/parkvl0.jpg

Thoughts?

By the way, I've set two rough goals... I dunno if I'll achieve it but it will at least motivate me to work harder, perhaps. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

1) Be done with the basic map layout within around a week. That includes passages through buildings, entrances and exits, basic geometry...

2) Take it one step at a time. Make a building entrance, create a connecting room, create an exit to another building or to the map, move onto the next building... wash, rinse, repeat, et cetera. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by G.Ballblue on Thu Jul 27th at 12:13am 2006

Good to hear you've got a game plan <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif"> For your playground idea, the image you showed looks like a good idea as to how it could be constructed -- I would suggest that you keep away from putting a ladder there, and build a staircase along the wall instead. Also make sure that the "road" isn't used as the edge of that hill. A sidewalk and some guard rails along the upper ledge would have that area whipped.

Also: I think you misunderstood me when I was refering to the hill-like-road <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif"> I wasn't implying that you completely remove it, if that's what you thought I was talking about <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> I like the hill, but the way it's constructed doesn't quite fit. Once again though, that image you made of the playgroud looks like a good way to go -- just use a staircase instead of a ladder <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


Breaking the laws of mapping since 2003 and doing a damn fine job at it



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Thu Jul 27th at 12:24am 2006

.. and another example of the reason I love this place. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Stairs... of course. Handrails as well sound great. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">

@ potential misunderstanding: nah, I said "Going back to flatten it out a bit is a possibility" - not entirely. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Thanks a lot for those suggestions. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Right now working on a solution to the combine-wallitis.


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Thu Jul 27th at 12:48am 2006

I really like screen 4 that you posted. I think its the best looking one you've posted in this thread so far, it's gettin' really good.

Also, I think the changes to the playground would look good, also, like GBall said, stairs instead of a ladder there.

I like the inside shot you showed, good texture choice on the walls and nice functional lighting in there.





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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Elon Yariv on Thu Jul 27th at 12:52am 2006

The first thing that I noticed is that most buildings are just blocks with windows. Try to break that feeling and make more buildings less blockish. Look around in a close by city and see how the buildings look in there. Also look in previously made maps, they can be helpfull, even if they haven't got the same theme.

This map has a diffrent city theme, yet it can still give you some ideas for your city.

I'll make a few examples how you can improve the buildings, I will make it in Hl1 though, not in source.


Elon Yariv



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Thu Jul 27th at 1:48am 2006

Addicted:

Thanks for your compliments. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Stairs most definitely. About to start working on that.

Elon:

Yep, one (of the few?) major things left is to detail the buildings. I've been holding off a bit just to make sure I don't have to redo it again or anything, e.g. that everything's laid out the way I want it and all that. That and laziness. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

That map you linked to looks very nice, a different theme indeed but some ideas for sure.

Some examples? That'd be much appreciated if you felt like doing it. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Thanks!


-- midkay




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