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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Fri Jul 6th at 12:11am 2007

Hey again, everyone...

Last night, the dm_residential_b2 compile went fine. Everything's looking good with it, so plans are still on for a release tonight.

I've put up new screenshots for the map release, as well as a rewritten description - both on the map profile right here at Snarkpit. (Go have a look!)

Lastly, I didn't really plan this out too well in advance, but I'm expecting to have a little game tonight right after I put up the map and post the download link, so anyone can come by. Here are how I expect things to go down:

Approximately 5 1/2 hours from now (10:30-10:45PM PST), I'll post the download link to dm_residential_b2 here, and post some server details along with it (IP address; no password, public server) and get into that server with a friend, so at least two players will be there. I expect that game to go on for at least an hour, regardless of whether anyone else comes by, so it'd be awesome if anyone from here or anywhere else wants to join in. The more the merrier!

So have a look for the download link and server information right here in about 5 1/2 hours.



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Fri Jul 6th at 6:09am 2007

Hi guys,

dm_residential_b2 has been released! See the map profile for a download link, and there's also a more info link which'll take you to a page with at least one more screenshot, where I'll be adding a bit more of information and images to.

A friend of mine will be hosting a server for about an hour (or more, depending on if people show up) after this is posted. At the very least, he and I will be there for that hour. We'll be playing dm_residential_b2 only. Stop on by!

Server information:

IP: 76.166.46.252
No password.


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Yak_Fighter on Fri Jul 6th at 8:58am 2007

First off, there's some sort of error with the displacements in the middle of the map, as the RPG falls through that sandbox and SLAMs fall through the world. I dunno what is up with that or how to fix it.

It's clear that you have spent a great deal of time on this map. There's good architecture, good use of props/entities, good custom textures, no noticable errors, very nice lighting, and it even ran rather well for a map of its open nature and size.

However...

The layout leaves much to desire. It sucks, plain as day. All the enterable buildings are linear with only one or two ways through them. The under construction building and the bombed out one with fire are even worse in that there's one way in and they deadend at the top, forcing you to jump off to move on. This leads to predictable and shallow gameplay that will not hold anyone's attention after multiple playthroughs. There's no flow, no chance to evade your enemies, and very little vertical play.

It's really unfortunate that you have put a years+ work into this, because you've basically been polishing up a very poorly laid out and weakly designed map. The worst part is I can't really see a way to salvage the layout, with all the buildings being so spread out and the big open field in the middle.





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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Fri Jul 6th at 9:36am 2007

Hey Yak_Fighter,

I haven't seen the displacement problem. All the items stay where they should be for me, and it all must work fine for the guy I playtest with all the time as well, because he always gets me with the RPG and slams. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Thanks for your positive comments, and the negative ones as well. I hadn't considered gameplay to be so poor, but as you said, there's not much of way to change things in a larger sense anyways. I feel that if there is some gameplay trouble, there are some things I can try to help resolve it; namely, some more ideas for movement into, through, and out of buildings. I'm actually not very happy with the destroyed building, as far as the way it involves itself in the gameplay, look for some changes to that as well. (Although, by the way, you mentioned there's only one way in to that destroyed building - there's actually two, through the front doors and up the debris-ramp in the front.)

If you have any particular specifics about the gameplay that you might consider to be fixable (even if it's not such a simple fix) I'd much appreciate hearing about them. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

You mentioned some aspects I hadn't really considered when I did a lot of layout work, and they're ones I'll definitely have to think about before I ever decide to release a final version. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Thanks again, I appreciate it.


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by reaper47 on Fri Jul 6th at 6:15pm 2007

The -novirtualmesh parameter for VBSP should get rid of the displacement problem.

I'll have a look at the map tonight. All I can say so far is that it's about time you get this finished. 1 year, that's a lot. If there's as much left to change as you mentioned, it might be better to tear the map apart and start from scratch. It might actually be faster to build (surprisingly fast) and you have complete control over even the most large scale layout issues.


Why snark works.



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Fri Jul 6th at 8:51pm 2007

reaper47: Oh, cool, thanks for the tip on -novirtualmesh.. I'll try that, thanks.

I didn't mean to imply I had a lot left to change. I have a number of ideas on things I could change if necessary, but nothing major, and I think this map would be a total nightmare to rebuild (for me, since I always spend so much time getting things as perfect as I can). Nah, if I start any map from scratch it'll be a brand new one. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> But thank you. I'm looking forward to your thoughts!


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Finger on Fri Jul 6th at 9:16pm 2007

Personally, I think it would be much more beneficial to move on with a fresh map.

You've learned from this map what most new mappers learn from 2 or 3 maps. Trust me, no matter how good, your first map will always be way less elegant that future maps. Just think of all the cool stuff yet to be built.

You could easily sit here spinning your wheels for months, trying to perfect something that is possibly innately flawed.

You get an A+ in my book based dedication, receiving feedback, enthusiasm.... I'm curious to see what you will do with a clean slate.





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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by reaper47 on Fri Jul 6th at 9:25pm 2007

Alright, I had a close look!

I must say that, to some point, I agree with Yak_Fighter. The buildings are just too separated. In the earlier versions I thought that the places where just a little big and it was the traveling time that bothered, but all of the buildings are connected solely via their street access and that becomes very obvious now. Also the 5-floor staircase in the destroyed building just gets horribly repetitive after the first floor and I miss the accessible roof on the opposite of the map (I love accessible roofs).

Hmmm...

I still love bits and pieces of the map.

Like in the destroyed building where you first think that the floor just consists of a single hole in the wall but then you walk around the little ledge on the outside and see a semi-secret room hidden behind it.

I also like jumping around the facade of the colorful building.

It's just... Yak is absolutely right, it's too linear. And it's too late to redo any part the way it would be necessary to refine this enough. Not with this VMF file. I suggest keeping this state, you can be very happy with the aspects of mapping that turned out really well. And for your next project, try starting with a clearer focus on classic layout structures.

Did I mention that I love the lighting? <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">


Why snark works.



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Fri Jul 6th at 9:31pm 2007

Wow, thanks, Finger.

I think that's a good idea too, starting fresh: I'll be trying to think out some ideas for a new map soon. (Likely the problem with residential was, I had no clear layout in mind at all... whatever I did have, well, it didn't end up looking like that at all anyways.) Still, as I spent a ton of time on residential itself... I'd like to do my best to fix it up as much as possible within a couple weeks and then just release it as it is. Nah, I guess I can't change the gameplay in large part, and maybe that's a big problem in the map, but there are probably a few modifications I could make to help out a little bit, and I'd be definitely interested in pursuing those, provided they could be done relatively quickly. I'm not going to keep the map perpetually "work in progress" as I did after beta 1: I truly intend to release a final version within a few weeks. I am a little tired of it and there's not much left to change. So might as well take advantage of those few weeks before I start anew.

Thanks again for your comments - surprisingly inspirational. image If I do another, I'll certainly be thinking it out some more. Sounds like great fun!

-edit-
And reaper47:

Thanks for having a run-through. I appreciate your thoughts, thanks for the specifics - they're helpful. At the least, I like to know what stands out as good and what stands out as sucky. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> I guess it's pretty clear the layout leaves something to be desired, but oh well - good practice, right? <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Thanks again!


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Yak_Fighter on Sun Jul 8th at 5:48am 2007

As far as trying to fix this map's current layout, it would be very tough. A realisticially designed city block (ie square block with wide roads) just isn't very good for deathmatch play.

There are a few things you could do, like making the roads and sidewalks a little narrower, maybe by 16-32 units, and eliminating any gaps between the sidewalk and the buildings.

The problem is that really fixing the layout would require something drastic like totally removing the middle park and putting one of the already finished buildings in its place. You'd want to change the road as well if you did this, having it follow the perimeter of the hotel and that building with the open basement. You'd have to add levels to those two previously mentioned buildings and connect them to the fire and construction ones. However, that's a whole lot of work that would require alot of changes, probably to the point where you'd be better starting over.

Realistic mapping is very hard in deathmatch maps, as many of the designs that make deathmatch fun just don't fit into real-world scenarios. Stuff like no dead ends, over/under areas that have contrasting heights and allow for vertical combat and fast movement, good connectivity between the different areas and heights of the map, and few wide open areas or long hallways. These are especially hard to fit into urban or city environments, cause they mostly look forced or just plain bad. In fact I can't even think of any examples of a good urban deathmatch map that still looked like a real city outside of some Action HL maps. :/





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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Sun Jul 8th at 7:27am 2007

Thanks Yak_Fighter,

Those are some really great ideas. Some of the suggestions you made like removing gaps between buildings and sidewalks are oddly reminiscent of a process the map went through many months ago. image But I understand the reasoning behind it, I think there are still a couple places this could be done.

I don't really intend to be able to totally fix the layout and turn it into something great, but you have some great suggestions that, if I feel up to it, I might spend a little time messing with on a seperate copy of the map. I didn't go for complete realism, but I tried in some aspects. Some of these things were even already in my head that needed to be done before the final (such as making the destroyed building far more interesting gameplay wise).

"You'd have to add levels to those two previously mentioned buildings and connect them to the fire and construction ones." This quote paints an insane mental picture that's so cool I might just have to try it. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Thanks again!


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Sat Jul 14th at 10:54am 2007

I'm beginning to think I might be able to pull this off a little better than I expected. I'll definitely have to show you guys to get your thoughts, but I've been working on this in the past few days, making a few more-than-minor changes that should be beneficial.

One thing I did is create an alleyway that leads behind the restaurants - basically, from the large hole in the side of the 1532 red/yellow/white apartment/hotel building, along the back of the restaurant building (yellow) and along the side, and it exits facing the destroyed building. An alternate way of getting around; I might be doing some more with this, but that's how it stands for now.

Another, sort of fulfilling reaper's request: Roof access to 1532 (again, sort of). I have a ladder leading up to the top of the red windows on the right side of the building, and some planks leading between each of the window sections; I moved the RPG to the far of the red windows on the left side, so now you've gotta work to get it, by climbing a big exposed ladder then walking across all the window sections - again, pretty exposed. That should help balancing it out a bit.

The big thing I just started on tonight, which is turning out a bit, hmm, better than I expected: just for the hell of it, I deleted the park, grabbed the entire construction site, and moved it over to where the park was. This was the ideal candidate for this area, because it ends up being a pretty short building so you can still see across the map kinda well (sniping between the destroyed building and the room across from it should still be possible) and it doesn't block out too much. But what it introduces is a big possibility of joining up several of the buildings, like Yak_Fighter suggested.

So that's an update on what I'm up to. I have some more ideas in mind for connectivity and flow, as well as I'd like to do more with the construction building to give more vertical play, but we'll see how this goes and hopefully it turns out to be for the best. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Wed Aug 1st at 12:50pm 2007

Oy!

So in these past three weeks following the release of dm_residential_b2, I haven't really updated you guys at all, but I've been working harder than ever to bring this map to its best. And this is what I've been working on:

* The old apartment building (with the extruded edges and basement access, right across from 1532) has been split up into 3 separate buildings of the same style, allowing walkways between all of them and connected above the walkways themselves. The basement access building has been redesigned (screenshot) - now stairs lead up to the main level (screenshot - omfg I love those shadows and the slight bloom on the handrail) and there's a new interior there (screenshot). There's also an alternate way to access the basement - via a door you can access from a side walkway.

* Finally, a solution to the empty areas of the map. All of the sections which used to be odd, slanted concrete (due to the hill) between the buildings, and surrounding the used-to-be park, have been turned into actual civilian walkways with stairs and handrails. (screenshot; the open door you see leads into the interior in the previous screenshot.)

* Destroyed building no longer has an interior (url=http://www.midkay.net/dm_residential/b3/residential_b3_05.jpg]screenshot[/url])No door leading in, and there's only one door open for use from the outside, and that leads down a short hall, across a small skybridge connecting it to the building that replaces the old construction site (url=http://www.midkay.net/dm_residential/b3/residential_b3_06.jpg]screenshot[/url]). Immediately after the skybridge there is a room housing the crossbow - a new sniper location (see window just right of the skybridge). This new building also has stairs that lead down to two separate entrances for flexibility.

* New alley along the back of the destroyed building (right side of screenshot), leading up to the new walkway (on the left of the screenshot) and one of the two ground-level entrances to the new sniper building (not QUITE visible in the screenshot, but it's on the left). Another new alley along the back and side of the groundlevel-restaurant building (screenshot). On the right you can see the hole in the 1532 building and on the left you can see the destroyed building.

* So where did the construction site go? Why, it replaces replaces the park/grass area from beta 2. The site itself is much larger and more detailed and it's no longer "adding on" to another building - it's a brand new standalone metal-and-concrete structure. Screenshot from ground level (note the stairs on the right!) and another from atop the plank connecting it and 1532.

* Semi-roof access on 1532 - a ladder leads up to the extruded faces of the building and the crossbow is on the far side.

Also, well, I've done some lighting tweaks, notably for HDR, by adjusting the tonemap controller to give slightly larger blooms and slightly higher exposures in dark areas; this map almost demands HDR to look good, and I'm really loving how it's ending up visually.

This is all kind of hard to comprehend in text, I think, so I whipped up a very crude flow map that shows how you can navigate the map. And here is that map (green shows the roadways, red shows ground-level navigation, and blue indicates a higher elevation (the skybridge and third-floor corridors).

The map's flow should be infinitely better than beta 2's, I've added a ton of routes around and throughout, and no longer do buildings just have one way in and one way out. You can pick your route through them, or along them, or around them with all the alleys and walkways. There are, as far as I know, no longer any ways to get yourself trapped (except for one interior in the apartment building, but that's intentional - you've got to take a risk if you want to go for the super suit/health charger!).

And with all that said, I'm planning to release a beta 3 of this within a few days. I'm really looking forward to everyone's thoughts - please let me know your opinions on this! Very happy to make some last-minute changes. In fact, I've got a couple myself, that should improve the flow even more.

Thanks for reading this monster of a post. Let's hear your thoughts! smiley


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by RedWood on Wed Aug 1st at 7:38pm 2007

It's looking really good. From what i can see the HDR has a good look to it. I think you may have gone overboard on the spot lights though. I can't really imagine seeing a spot light beam when it's daylight out.
I'd elaborate more but i have to get to work.


Reality has become a commodity.



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by reaper47 on Wed Aug 1st at 8:42pm 2007

Wow, this is getting really complicated <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">

I need to see this in action to give any comments at all. I agree with RedWood with the too many spotlights. There are too many.

It's also getting a little too clean for my taste now, especially the floors.

There also seem to be very, very long corridors on the outer borders of the map now which could turn out a little linear.

But it's really hard to say anything specific, even with all the description. Maybe you can get a proper server-test soon at this place called The Radiator.


Why snark works.



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Thu Aug 2nd at 3:41pm 2007

RedWood: Thanks! About the spotlights... well, maybe because of the HDR tweaking I've been doing, it looks like daytime; maybe it's all too bright. What I'd prefer to do is darken the environment lighting a bit and put the exposure back to normal, because I like the way the spotlights look and I want to keep them. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">

reaper47: Haha, it's not very complicated... there are far more routes available to you than before but I don't think (well, I hope) they aren't too hard to figure out. As for the cleanliness, I'm sure I've said this before, but I'm perpetually waiting until the map is actually just about done layoutwise before I do any dirtying up... because what I've always found is that I'll do a lot of work on one building to make it look nice and then I end up deleting it a couple weeks later and losing all that work, or majorly revamping it... so it's gonna be pretty clean until I finish the layout. Also, with the alleys: I've tried hard to make them less boring by providing alternate routes along them. I'm already doing MORE work on the layout; for the alley behind the restaurants, I've added a door that leads into the restaurant itself, so then you have another option halfway along the alley.

Anyways, as I continue to create more routes and interiors, the map's starting to feel a little big. That worries me. I'm going to finish what I'm up to (a larger hotel interior) and then see just how big it is and maybe delete some stuff or cut it down a bit. I'm not really sure.

Thanks for your comments! <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by reaper47 on Fri Aug 3rd at 4:50pm 2007

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Maybe it's not so much about the "cleanness" (I actually tend to build cleanly myself - which doesn't necessarily mean orderly <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif"> ) but about a general lack of variation, even for large-scale shapes. More chaos!

Most of the buildings, roads, etc still have a strict border between them. You can easily see where one corridor/place/room ends and the next one starts. That can be obvious and inevitable but you could cut out some more asymmetrical, unpredictable walkable areas to blend places (stairs, corridors, buildings) in a more interesting fashion.

I painted these crude examples for what I mean, don't take these too seriously but try to split up your layout here and there, like I tried it with the pics. There are a lot of possibilities for height variation and general interestingness that would have a direct impact on the layout and would need to be added before final detailing.










I think I'm gonna like the new construction site, btw.


Why snark works.



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Fri Aug 3rd at 7:06pm 2007

reaper47: Haha, I always forget that definition of 'cleanliness'. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Thanks very much... I always love these paintovers by Finger and you. Very useful to visualize what you mean. They both look great... I wish I had an eye for this stuff. I'm so clueless as to chaos. But I'll have to give it a go as soon as I finish the current project, reworking 1532's interiors. (I hope you don't mind if I steal some of your lovely ideas!)

So thanks again, I'll have another update and hopefully a beta 3 quite soon!


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Le Chief on Fri Aug 3rd at 10:43pm 2007

Wow, nice desgin dude. I can see some sweet game play in this map.


Aaron's Stuff



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Sat Aug 4th at 8:19am 2007

Thanks aaron. I'm working at it. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


-- midkay




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