dm_residential
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Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Fri Jul 28th at 5:00am 2006


Finger -

Wow, thank you. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> I'll take all the feedback I can get - I certainly did have those couple "maps before I came to terms with the craft" as you say (and accordingly "abandoned" them, thank god for that feature), and this is partially another... looking back I see plenty of things I should have done differently from the start that I'm kind of paying for now (redoing small things, etc), although when I started I clearly remember thinking "alright, I know what I'm doing now, I'm gonna do it right".. I guess I didn't know everything. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> I'll just have to move on to the next one when I finish and keep figuring it out. Hopefully the next one is a bit easier as far as knowing what to do and doing it right at first, though. I've learned a lot this time around and we'll see how it goes next time.

And... ouch, the carve tool? Glad I'm past that point (there was in fact such a point for me!) <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">

BTW, I'm quite honored to hear this from the guy who made dm_swamplight, one of my favorite unofficial DM maps (used to play it quite a lot on a server I played on frequently for a long time). Great work on that map; nice to "meet" you, however informal or brief it was. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Thanks again for your compliments and reassurance. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">



-- midkay



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Re: dm_residential
Posted by Finger on Fri Jul 28th at 9:18pm 2006


Heh.. well, I'm just a small fish in a big pool of talent here. Flattered that you know and enjoy my map, though.



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Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Fri Jul 28th at 9:54pm 2006


image

Alright, so just a small update.. working on a few building details now.. finished the bricks that were busted out of the wall, here is a sneak peek at that.. doing plenty of little tweaks.. and I'm just about to start on new interiors (some illustrated on Morphine's flow chart thingamabob).

[edit]

Holycrap I just sewed two displacements. Cool. I've never done that before. smiley

How useful!

[/edit]



-- midkay



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Re: dm_residential
Posted by Elon Yariv on Sat Jul 29th at 9:59am 2006


Ah, much better.


Elon Yariv



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Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Sat Jul 29th at 12:49pm 2006


Agreed, thanks. image

Gosh, VVIS has skyrocketed since the last compile.. *why*?! Took 2h45m tonight (ended up canceling it on 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...)! Was only ~40 minutes before. Gonna have to do some poking around, if anything i've really optimized since then.. hm. image

[edit]
Oho, I guess I found the problem. Un-func_detail'ed some of the stuff around the park so I could use the clip tool on certain parts of it (should have just used Ignore Groups, but didn't think of that til after).. forgot to func_detail it back.

It's the slanted-hill-stuff.. vvis would indeed create a fuss about all sorts of triangulated leaves along a curved surface.

*func_details and recompiles*



-- midkay



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Re: dm_residential
Posted by Elon Yariv on Sat Jul 29th at 9:34pm 2006


Triangles??? This is source you don't need the triangle method to create terrain, you have displacements, much better and low poly.


Elon Yariv



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Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Sat Jul 29th at 9:50pm 2006


No, I mean triangle-shaped leaves.. since I have standard blocks vertex-manipulated to be slanted and follow the slanted hill, vvis'd probably go crazy and create a lot of triangular leaves joined up with plenty of boxed ones.. I've done it before. vvis hates it. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Mapping went *GREAT* last night.. retextured all the buildings and worked on the new interiors. Buildings look a lot better, even added some extrusions to one, I really like it. Everything just kinda worked last night. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Screens soon..



-- midkay



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Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Sun Jul 30th at 12:50am 2006


Alright, eight new screens showing off new building textures and stuff:

Screen 1 - New building textures! Extrusion detail on one of the buildings! A new interior! (albeit too bright!)!!. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">
Screen 2 - another look at new textures.
Screen 3 - New textures again...
Screen 4 - New textuuuuures <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">
Screen 5 - detailed building again, another look at its interior.
Screen 6 - blah.
Screen 7 - new interior (gonna be a basement). Way too bright, was just "guessing" on the light brightness values.. way off. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">
Screen 8 - park area. Now somehow with detail sprites! <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">

The concept behind the new interior is that there's a blown out wall allowing access to the basement/downstairs storage/maintenance room of this apartment building and there will be a cave-in with a bunch of debris which you can work your way up through the cave-in into a destroyed apartment area, snipe out a window, or either jump out somehow (another broken wall into the park area) or get through yet another broken wall into the other similarly-textured apartment building next to it.

Also you probably haven't noticed but in screen #3 I tried a lightmap scale adjustment.. here is a comparison. This way it looks a LOT better with a "4" scale - with "8" it all looks too blocky and blobby, the lighting. Instead of having all the walls in here "8" i'll simply use the clip tool to cut out sections of the wall and make them individually either "4" for a segment that's lit from a lamp or "16" for everything else that's not directly lit. This way it should even be better performance than before but much better looking. Hoorayness.

Still working at it... getting closer though. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">



-- midkay



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Re: dm_residential
Posted by Crono on Sun Jul 30th at 5:47am 2006


I think you need to work on the realism of the buildings. They look fine, but some of the destroyed pieces look incredibly odd and out of place. For instance, in image 5. One thing to point out is that the destruction of the cement over the brick is a different pattern than the brick. And those jagged edges don't make sense. Maybe if it were tiled stone or something that would break like tile, but concrete for the most part breaks like Styrofoam. It's also usually very thick. Take a look at the destruction models involving concrete in HL2, you'll see what I'm talking about.

On the same building the pieces that have fallen don't look right. I mean, a piece of brick falling right at that line while there's still an entire column of it up ... does not make sense. Not to mention how pristine it looks.

It looks very good so far, though. Just keep tweaking things.

Also, just an idea, why don't you make some of the lamp posts destroyable? Like, make them a physics object on a hinge, so when x amount of damage occurs it falls down on the power lines. You can make the lines "break" and be live and cut the power in that area. It'd be cool and not very difficult to implement.



Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



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Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Sun Jul 30th at 6:25am 2006


Hey, Crono-

I think you're right, I'm not quite sure what approach I'll take towards more realistic concrete - probably displacements. What do you mean by "the pieces that have fallen don't look right" - the bricks? Right at what line?

I'll certainly have to come up with a good method for this soon, I'll have to do a lot of destruction in the next week. Any particular suggestions? Anybody?

I've considered the idea of telephone poles that can be damaged to the point of falling over and ripping down lines with them but quickly gave up. I have several reasons for not doing this with the street lights:

1) Actually toughish.. setting up constraints for each one, then timing it so the ropes break just when the lamp should be hitting them.
2) Gameplay problems? What if a lamp should fall in the middle of the street and players have to jump over it? That would slow things down a bit.
3) Some glitches - even if you set "Health Level to Override Motion" to a large number it still enables motion on that prop as soon as it's damaged in the least. No idea why.
4) Lighting in two ways: (1) This'd require dynamic lights that can be shut off.. not good. (2) The map would be quite dark sans streetlights...

Don't get me wrong, it's quite a cool idea and I've attempted it before with complete interest. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> It just didn't really work out and I guess it was for the best considering potential gameplay issues.

Appreciate your suggestions and compliment though. I'll see what I can do about that concrete wall..



-- midkay



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Re: dm_residential
Posted by Crono on Sun Jul 30th at 6:40am 2006


1) I'm pretty sure you can turn lights on and off without them being dynamic.
2) You can freeze objects once they do whatever. Remember, I said it was on a hinge. It can be controlled. Also, you can make it hit another object and stay there. The point is you make the environment a little more active by making it "dynamic".

You can also make events. (Even though this is very unrealistic, it could be very cool) For example, what if the power lines came down and ignited a building? (Turn on lights that are set to flicker).

There's so many possibilities.



Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



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Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Sun Jul 30th at 7:29am 2006


Absolutely - I love dynamicness. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">

Nah, maybe a light that can be toggled isn't exactly dynamic, but at the least there are two sets of lightmaps per light that needs to be toggled, so if you have e.g. 3 lights that are togglable, you have 9 combinations of lighting, so it's 9 lightmaps that need to be built - hell for the compiler, and probably not nice performancewise etc. Flickering lights, are considered dynamic.

The powerlines idea is also cool - but again I don't think this quite fits in with the deathmatch aspect. In single player this'd be absolutely awesome - but I don't really know how to say this.. in deathmatch I personally think the map should generally start and end in quite similar states so gameplay is always quite the same. They're certainly cool ideas, but I hope you understand what I mean... it's hard for me to explain.

I certainly like smaller things like this though, e.g. like I've got breakable traffic lights. Dynamicness is really awesome and it's something I try to incorporate as much as possible but I believe the "bigger scale" events are best left to singleplayer kind of maps (HL2 had a lot of cool things like this, e.g. breakable bridges and towers, that crumbling smokestack, those Ravenholm traps).

Appreciate your input, as always. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">



-- midkay



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Re: dm_residential
Posted by Crono on Sun Jul 30th at 7:46am 2006


A moving light is dynamic. A flickering light has 2 states: on and off. RAD will calculate both prior to the map being ran. Thus there are no real time calculations.

You should be worried about how the game runs, not how long the compile is. When everything is said and done, you should inconvenience yourself for the 1 time you'll spend compiling the entire map for release which will take a few hours rather than ruin the game play for everyone.

I've always thought large interactive objects makes games more interactive, regardless of the game play mode. I don't know why you wouldn't want to have a shoot out against your buddy on a collapsing bridge, for example. That'd be awesome.

They're just suggestions. If that's not the route you want to take, that's up to you.



Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



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Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Sun Jul 30th at 8:27am 2006


Right, but when RAD always takes around an hour, when you have even just a few switchable lights, you end up with an overnight compile.. considering it needs to be compiled twice for HDR, that's around 18 hours of a compile for 3 switchable lights. As long as I understand correctly. I don't mind a long compile at all - in fact the longer it is the better I feel, at least RADwise (if VVIS has trouble, I get worried). image Trouble is that I just don't know if having all these sets of lightmaps in fact degrades ingame performance... I'd imagine they would, having to be loaded and switched out realtime.

Your example of a fight on a swinging/breaking bridge sounds quite fun indeed, but do you understand that it doesn't last? If it's collapsing, then it will just collapse and then that gameplay element is simply over. No more collapsing bridge; if it gets collapsed in the first minute it's not there the whole time. If it's only used towards the end the gameplay could be entirely different. If you're in single player it's cool because that might lead you on to a new area, or cut off an alternate route back, but it's like in multiplayer not everyone gets to try it or doesn't get to see it.

I dunno how to better explain my point of view on this. The ideas are cool but tricky to implement and quite probably performance-hurting. I like to keep smaller things in, though... I'll think about what I can do. Stuff like a few crumbling bricks that fall when they take damage are the kinds of things I prefer. image Maybe it's because I think that many players won't be around to see it.. in singleplayer, the only player that's there always is in that area when something major happens, but in multiplayer, someone may be across the map when it does... I don't know to be honest.

Keeping this in mind nevertheless. image



-- midkay



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Re: dm_residential
Posted by Finger on Sun Jul 30th at 8:46am 2006


Your map looks like it's really coming along. Screenies are getting prettier, and asthetics seem to be shaping up all-around. It seems like you are really trying to figure this thing out, therefore, I thought I'd give you some advice that has helped me tremendously in creating maps (and more).

The big problem I'm seeing here is a lack of compelling composition. This composition - the broad strokes of your shapes is the foundation of your map. Understanding this stuff is essential to any artist, as it applies to anything that humans look at. I work with some great artists, and just recently (within the past couple of years) had a very 'AHAH!' moment while studying the beautiful pictures and environments they create. It's a very simple principle, and once you realise what's going on, you will see it everywhere. Our world is a visual rollercoaster - a never ending wave of stacked objects that kind of piramid up and down all around us. Pay attention to where your eye goes as you walk down the street... along the sidewalk, to a gutter, up to a room, to an antenna, back down to a window, down an archway, back to the street. This is the organic way in which our eyes move across the landscape be it a room, or a mountainscape - we are constanly riding along the contours of objects around us pulled from one shape to the nest. These contours, the shapes which define the objects only exist because there is contrast. So... when creating an image, you want to take advantage of this knowledge, and create shapes (using contrast) which pull the eye around the image in a satsfying and organic way. There really is a science to this stuff, and when once you start to see it, you realize that it's not that hard to use. So anyway, enough rambling. What I've done is tried to illustrate these concepts with a few quick paintovers of your images. Hopefully you see what I'm getting at with these - they are only meant to illustrate the point of composition, not specific things you should change.

- I really like the feeling of this building on the right, but it's bordering on repetitious, and this view is begging for some more interesting shapes. Use the skyline as much as possible, It's basically a big flat color waiting for you to stack interesting shapes against it. the red line is the path which you eye takes - the rollercoaster.

The second shot has a ton of potential, but also suffers from too much repitition and a fairly dull skyline...your eye needs more action.

Last shot...I really like this busted building, but think you should play it up some more. Take advantage of the theme, make it more dramatic.

Hope this helps. I know that it helps me to do these kinds of exercises with my own maps. Drawing over screenshots is a very powerful tool that all mappers should at least try. It could save you a lot of time when trying to figure things out.

Duncan





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Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Sun Jul 30th at 9:21am 2006


Gosh... I'm... speechless, I really don't know what to say. Let me try. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

That red-line principle is a truly interesting and correct one - I don't know how to say this without sounding like someone who goes "you're right" just to seem like they get it, but.. you're right.

These concept art images you've done - wow. I can't stop looking at them... they're excellent (and nice job with the compositing - they look very cool in a rough, pastel-ish way). Let's see, I'll try to address them in order.

1) That building looks lovely - looking back on the original now is hard. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Wow... some really interesting ideas to take in here. Really like the what looks to be destroyed section in the upper left, and the vertical variation all over the building. Also, that radio towerlike thing way back there is really excellent, I love the way it really towers over the neighborhood.

2) The damaged parking lot is a really nice addition. All the skybox things give it what you appropriately called "action" - a business I really hope I can capture before the map's done. The billboard is nice, I've been wanting to put one in but haven't quite found a place for it. I guess seeing it somewhere is a lot easier to appreciate than imagining it somewhere. Those .. gah, what would you call them.. black things. Metal structures (do you know the word for these? shelflike things..) look like they would add some cool gameplay as well, and a ton of realism.

3) Alright, this one looks hands-down incredible.. more like what I pictured for this area when I began it. I wish it were easier to do once I begin it (yes, seeing it has made my mind up for me). <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Crumbling rocks, the underlying supports... huge ripped-out chunks littering the sidewalk.. totally. Sigh.. how would one go about this. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/sad.gif">

Drawing over screenshots - excellent idea. I've done this a couple times just trying to figure out the layout of a few things but never anything like this with actual manipulation and even semirealistic integration.. I'll certainly be trying this myself very soon.

These screens are *very* helpful - I really, really appreciate the time you spent putting them together and explaining your thoughts on them. Thank you. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> *saves them for all eternity*



-- midkay



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Re: dm_residential
Posted by Elon Yariv on Sun Jul 30th at 12:11pm 2006


Nice improvments midk, awsome map.

The broken wall in the restaurant isn't finished yet. image It looks too much simmetrical, like it was broken down on porpose. Only that part of the wall is damages, not a scretch on the walls near it or on the door. You should make it less simetrical. A screeni is worth more then ten thousand words, so here it is:

image

You should rip some of those lamps out of their place and leave them hanging on a cord or lying on the floor? That will be cool. The lights that hang on cord should flicker.

Edit:

Here are some Hl2 example maps that may help you:
http://twhl.co.za/mapvault.php?author=1322
http://twhl.co.za/mapvault_map.php?id=3871
http://twhl.co.za/mapvault_map.php?id=3363
http://twhl.co.za/mapvault_map.php?id=3369
http://twhl.co.za/mapvault_map.php?id=3323
http://twhl.co.za/mapvault_map.php?id=2779



Elon Yariv



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Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Sun Jul 30th at 1:00pm 2006


Hey Elon:

Thanks. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> It's slowly but surely (nah, not "surely" - "hopefully"? <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> ) getting there.

I might replace the cut-up brushes with displacements as well as at the "new" broken concrete wall I showed in the most recent screenshots.

Is the more irregular shape of the hole in the wall what you're trying to illustrate in the screenshot you provided? Thanks for it, it's a nice idea. I'll try and do that. Oh, the door there is from the front door of the restaurant - not from where the hole was. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Also thanks for all the map links. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> I'll check all of them for useful reference!



-- midkay



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Re: dm_residential
Posted by Elon Yariv on Sun Jul 30th at 11:14pm 2006


Yeah, thats what I ment by simmetric, it was squrish. You mean that there is a junction between another wall next to where the door is? No problem, just break that wall as well.


Elon Yariv



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Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Sun Jul 30th at 11:46pm 2006


Nope, I mean the door is from the front of the restaurant - the front door. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> (Broken off its hinges and laid up against the wall)

But yeah, alright.. I'll de-square this hole in the wall. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">



-- midkay




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