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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Mon Jul 31st at 1:36am 2006

The retexturing and extrusions were a huge step in the right direction <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> I think your map looks much better now (finally those windows have been thinned out <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> )

I noticed in screen 3 that the hole in corner of the building would have shattered the window right next to it. You could cut out a window-sized hole in the texture that's overlapping the exploded section.

I'm not a huge fan of the gray concrete texture serving as the base of the yellow-white extruded building. How would it look with red brick or another less monotone texture?

Lookin' forward to you filling the basement up with some junk, some props etc. Wouldn't hurt to make the room less of a square by adding a big block into one of the corners (in essence making the room 6 sided instead of 4). I'll draw you a picture if my words fail to express what I mean.

Finger, that critique was awesome. I learned a lot just reading it as well. Why not write up a tutorial about drawovers? I'm sure a lot of us would love to know what program you use, if you use a tablet, where you start, and how you think about improving a scene.

Also, I agree with Elon Yariv about the hole in the wall. Additionally, what I noticed was that the broken plaster bits don't look as realistic as the brick. The plaster bits don't look like they should be breaking into such sharp triangles, or so many triangles. Why not just smooth things out a little bit, like bigger flatter chunks of plaster chipped out of the wall. Something like this:

image

Not exact, but you get the idea.

One last general comment. It's nice to see so many people helping out. I can't remember the last thread I read (anywhere, not just here at SnarkPit) with so much consistent in depth constructive criticism. I don't mean this as a way to toot my own horn, but rather to compliment everyone else who has posted in the thread. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/clap.gif">

Looking forward to more, as always <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">





Quote
 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Mon Jul 31st at 2:30am 2006

Morphine!

Thanks.. slowly it's improving. image Yeah, chose all textures that would only have one window per tile instead of two like before. Looks much better this way IMO.

So, yeah. For the window I'll certainly take care of that soon, I might end up redoing this entire blown-out bit (four displacements; one per each side). Whether or not I do, I will have to do some cutting-up of the brushes that this building consists of in order to correct the distorted window you can see there. image

Hm, interesting @ the bricks idea. I'll certainly change these at some point (same texture for all three buildings, mostly placeholder) - I wonder how brick would look there, so the exploded hole in the wall would be seamless with the rest of the wall.

Nice idea with the block... no need for a drawing, I know exactly what you mean. In fact, that just gave me another idea, some supporting pillars scattered around the basement might look cool.

Yeah, Finger - a tutorial would be very cool. image It's very cool that you explained it here but for other people who aren't reading this thread, etc.. going into detail on a seperate tutorial would be a good idea.

And yeah - that plaster wall.. sigh. I just don't really know what to do with it yet, go with displacements I probably will. (Talking like a jedi, I am!) Nice concept art that is (alright, that's enough of that). image It seems like it'd be quite a pain to accomplish with the clip tool though... (or the vertex editor for that matter). So I might give it a try, but probably end up going with displacements.

And yeah.. I really don't have the least idea where I'd be today had I not posted this map so early and recieved so many comments from everyone here. I truly wonder what the map'd look like. image I'm very glad to be the one on the receiving end of this excellent stream of comments, [constructive!] criticism, suggestions...

Thanks to everyone who's helping me out with this. image

[edit]
Oh yeah.. forgot to mention.. right now I'm working on that basement. I'll try the retexturing/pillars/boxes ideas. smiley Working on the to-be apartment interior...


-- midkay



Quote
 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Mon Jul 31st at 10:56am 2006

Alright, so I just kind of came up with a different way to redo any "broken walls" found in the levels (a more realistic concrete-type crumbling). It's much easier than either displacements or the way I did it where the concrete looked really jagged like glass... and it looks better than both to boot. I'll be redoing all the busted walls in the map this way, I think. *cheers happily* image

Here's a screen - from within Hammer, I just got done with it: http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/4660/bustedwallzj8.jpg

Got to add decals now to spice it up a little bit, as well as some debris on the ground and inside.. and I will be working on the basement some more.

If there are any comments or suggestions - maybe I can get one or two before I head to bed between one and two hours from now (knowing me, though, could be four hours). image

*back to work*


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Mon Jul 31st at 1:32pm 2006

Looks better, thats what I was trying to convey with my MS-Paint outline. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Mon Jul 31st at 2:21pm 2006

Cool. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Yeah, I'm still up. Told you I'd probably last another four hours. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

I really am confident about the way the basement area and apartment will turn out. I really like this new method of creating chunks of rock/blasted walls/floors... almost to the point where it's fun. :O

I've.. well.. just wait for it. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Pillars, supporting concrete, crumbling concrete.. this area's starting to get a mood I really like. Screens will be up tomorrow whilst I compile overnig-- er... overmorning (7:20am ATM, probably will sleep ~ 8am). <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Mon Jul 31st at 3:29pm 2006

Man you're a crazy nightowl. It's only 11:33 PM here. Lookin' forward to the new screens though.



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Mon Jul 31st at 3:40pm 2006

Haha. 8:36 now.. :o It's lovely though. I'd wake up at like 7PM and go to bed at 10AM if I had my way.. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Anyways, yeah.. compiling+going to bed now. Did a cordon compile of the area, lighting is really cool. Did some tweaking to it.

So, see you all in 8 hours.. unless I don't ever wake up, that'd suck... You guys would never get to play the map! <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif"> *poof*


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Tue Aug 1st at 12:06am 2006

Alright, eight new screens of what's done so far of my one newly revamped little room <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">

Screen 1 - looking at the room from a corner.
Screen 2 - another angle from the same place. (Still to-do: redo that crumbling concrete)
Screen 3 - ceiling, which I'm fond of (the shadows/lighting on it, feels quite industrial).
Screen 4 - from the opposite corner of the room.
Screen 5 - looking up into the to-be destroyed apartment/hotel room.
Screen 6 - looking out a hole in the wall (the one I showed yesterday in Hammer).
Screen 7 - looking down on the basement through the big hole.
Screen 8 - out the destroyed window of the apartment. This will be fun to snipe out of, I hope.. I think I'll put a crossbow here and remove one over in the alleyway. That'll total up to two in the map, one in this room and one across the map in the top hole of the destroyed building (which is DIRECTLY across from this window, you can see it in the picture). That could make for some fun gameplay, two sniping holes opposite each other. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

So I'm really enjoying destroying things now with this crumbling concrete technique. I just realized I've been talking about a "new technique" but haven't really detailed it.. basically I take a long brush, cut it up with straight lines horizontally, and then clip them off vertically. I think I might make a tutorial on this, since it's such a quick, fun method and the easiest way I've found yet. Just after I check if there are any tutorials here on something similar.. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

So yeah, as far as the basement, I still have some things to do; I want more pipes and some vents snaking around the walls/ceiling to make this feel like a more cramped, dirty, rarely-visited basement. More decals, drains on the floor, more debris from that collapse in the ceiling from the apartment..

Also one of Finger's concept art images gave me an idea I think could look really cool. In the first image he seemed to destroy the upper left corner of this building (from the POV of the first concept drawing, it's the upper left, I mean). What that got me thinking about was having a huge headcrab canister just absolutely plowed straight into the building from that corner, smoking, rubble all around, just destroying the upper left corner this way.

Also a few thoughts on map performance. I'm going to have to worry about this soon, I can't get too detailed with anything here, which is unfortunate. FPS is around 35 from the top of the corner building roof where you can see basically everything, which isn't that bad considering the size of the map, but I'll have to get even more aggressive with optimization. I always do things the most efficient way possible (e.g. nodrawing all over every face that can't be seen) and I'll keep doing that but I'll also have to start using more hintbrushes to split up the leaves (notably the ones that hit the top of the skybox thus can see into basically any leaf in the map). Compile time has been going up quickly as well, though I'm not exactly worried about this. Vvis took 2 hours 15 minutes or so last night, and Vrad was an hour (x2, since LDR and HDR lightmaps are compiled seperately so Vrad runs twice).

Enough rambling for now. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Gonna start working on the apartment interior.. then smash down a couple walls to lead it over to another apartment.. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


-- midkay



Quote
 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Tue Aug 1st at 1:27am 2006

I like what you've down with the basement. Be careful about adding grates to the floor though, as right now the texture makes it look almost like gravel, and not concrete.

Also, I think it would look cooler if you somehow made the ramp up to the second floor part of the concrete ceiling supports, not just pieces of wood.





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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Elon Yariv on Tue Aug 1st at 1:59am 2006

The supports in the lower room looks from some reason too thin, I'm not sure they can hold the building in real life.


Elon Yariv



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Tue Aug 1st at 2:22am 2006

Morphine-

Ah, you're right - better switch out that texture <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Should be more concrete-ish.

Also that sounds cool, having the collapsed support lead up to the apartment. I'll give it a try.

Elon-

Yes, I felt they were rather thin too... I don't know exactly what I'll do yet. Probably make them larger (maybe twice as large) and have them - near the top - shrink down to the size they are now (so they recieve all their pressure from the beams). That or maybe make a "block" of concrete that goes around the concrete beams, where they intersect, and have a bigger pole run up into that.

Dunno how clear any of that is, but I see it clearly in my mind. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">

Also, I started a tutorial on the concrete-chopping... I might finish it off tonight. I love writing. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by reaper47 on Wed Aug 2nd at 8:37pm 2006

This map is really taking shape. I love the lighting now. There was a time when sunset lighting was a bit overused but after all the pale and colorless maps you see it's almost like a breath of fresh air. I love the way the orange light comes in in this very flat angle. The white-ish street-lights next to the orange-lit facades create an interesting contrast, I love it. It's near-perfect lighting-wise (which is one of my favourite aspects of map aesthetics).

I still think the map could benefit from a "less is more" approach. It's looking pretty vast at places (although I can only judge from the screenshots). I'm sure some of the streets or stairs/ramps could be stripped to make the layout a little tighter, circular and get a better gameflow.

One more thing I noticed: You can still see the shape of a window in the texture at the hole in the wall in the second screenshot. Looks very illogical once you notice.



Quote
 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Wed Aug 2nd at 9:16pm 2006

Hey, reaper47.

Thanks a lot for your comments, I also felt like I wanted to do something different from the typical bright-lit sunnyday lighting, and I like the atmosphere of this. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Still some tweaking to do, but the basics are there. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

As far as cutting it down a bit - that may be a good idea. here is an extremely rough paint over of what I was thinking when you mentioned this; cutting off a couple unnecessary buildings, mostly. I removed the crossbow in the upper right corner, leaving one in each campspot across the map from each other; thus that alleyway is unnecessary altogether and can be removed. I'll add a ladder up to the other crossbow in the campspot from behind soon; gives campers something to worry about and increases flow. Still trying to lay some things out until I do the fine-tuning but I think this is the way to go.

And I just realized what you meant with your last statement. Yeah, this is to be fixed. Maybe today. I need to redo the destruction around that hole in the building and in the process tweak the texturing and get rid of that window.

Thanks for the comments and heads up! <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Captain P on Wed Aug 2nd at 9:56pm 2006

First thing that's noticeable is the open nature of this map. It's fresh, I like it. It does feel a bit empty because of that, so you may want to spread some props around, 'tactically placed' of course. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

In the first shot I noticed those supporting bricks. At the hole in the wall, one of them is rotated... which is structurally incorrect, as those bricks are probably set deep into the underlying wall, and they wouldn't behave like that on impact. Just a small detail, but it shows somehow.
Besides that, the damage is too local and 'managed'. A building that takes such holes has taken moer than just that. Fire behind windows, broken glass, more damage spread across the building... and if it's recent damage, dust should fill the air and debris should be widespread 'available'.

Later shots show a very cubic nature. There's a few road curves, but that's mostly it. Add some curves, like in the train station plaza in HL, some buildings had nice little towers sticking out. I'm not sure what else you can do to break up the cubic buildings, some reference shots could help here. Also, one of the roads is blocked by debris - with an obvious linear edge between road and debris. Such things could be some more natural. I know it's a hard thing to do, but it'll pay off.

Besides those things, it's looking good. I wonder how it'll play, as it looks quite open and large. Buggy, anyone? <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


Create-ivity - a game development blog



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Wed Aug 2nd at 10:41pm 2006

Hey, Captain P;

Sure, I'll try to clutter it up a bit-- er... tactfully.. place some... very carefully-chosen... props... in very specific.. selected.. locations... <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">

About the bricks.. thanks for your thoughts. If I keep them I'll probably redo them or at least readjust them so they're more aligned, considering that. I'd also like to do more destruction, but I need to keep a careful eye on performance as well, and finishing the layout.. this suffices for now but I'll try to get it more convincing. Thanks for the pointers. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

I don't feel very likely to touch the road anymore but I'll certainly keep working on the buildings; I personally wouldn't consider any of them done (though maybe the hotel "nearly"). The debris will be more varied soon also when I add the new behind-corner-building alleyway. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

And yeah, I think maybe like a week before I think I'll release it I'd really like to get some people from Snarkpit as well as friends + friends-of-friends together for a large playtest (hopefully like >8 people) to see how this map plays with a lot of people.. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">

BTW @everybody, I just redid part of the exploded building; here's a Hammer shot.


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by Elon Yariv on Thu Aug 3rd at 8:58am 2006

You need to add more level changes in the rubble, use displacements, just like ordenery terrain.


Elon Yariv



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Thu Aug 3rd at 3:47pm 2006

Hey Elon-

Which rubble do you mean? The "ground" inside the destroyed building? It's already displacements, and I can make it more uneven.. that sounds a bit nicer, I'll try it later. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Thanks.


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Fri Aug 4th at 6:59pm 2006

Alright, so a quick update with particularly rough screenshots of entirely unfinished work. What's new? <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Started working on the "alleyway" idea, behind the corner building that wraps around, so the player has somewhere to jump. I also redid all the holes in the damaged building with the new technique.

Screen 1 - a glance down the alleyway, and the size/location in comparison with an area you all should be familiar with.
Screen 2 - in the corner at the other end of the alleyway, looking down towards the street on the right and towards the parking lot on the left.
Screen 3 - a view of the alleyway from the parking lot.
Screen 4 - the alleyway from the roof of the corner building.
Screen 5 - new destroyed concrete (don't worry - more details/decals/texture work coming soon, just rough outlines).
Screen 6 - same as above.
Screen 7 - New ladder up the back of the building and way in to the sniper area, giving the sniper more to worry about and more places to go.
Screen 8 of the other sniper spot which I've done some work on, now it's a small room (e.g. hotel/apartment). Slightly brightened in Photoshop to show the wall texture.

Not really looking for crits on the alleyway yet, I *just* started it last night, maybe spent 20 minutes on laying it out before running off to bed. I've got some thoughts already on changes, but I like how it's started out. I've got some things planned; I'll have a weapon back there, or at least ammo; as well as a ladder to the roof (a second ladder, that is, considering the one by the parking lot) for an alternate route up. I'll as well have a route in/out of the building's interior (that damaged hallway with all the rocks - out; hole in the building - in). <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Should add a lot of fun variation/alternate-route gameplay.

Just a sneak peek, expect more polished screens in a few days...


-- midkay



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 Re: dm_residential
Posted by midkay on Sat Aug 5th at 9:30am 2006

This is just kind of a rant post (though there's a nice little link halfway in if you want to see what I've been working on). Onwards;

Gosh, I'm getting really.. hmm.. frustrated/nervous/angry/worried/upset over the past few hours and just generally sickened/weary as far as the map. No specific reason, but some contributing factors:


  • Hammer update, although very cool, seems to make it run much slower. It's noticeably choppier when navigating in a 3D view and this has only made me *more* worried about performance.
  • PERFORMANCE. I already feel like the FPS is quite low in some areas and I still have a lot more I want to add. I know I should probably worry about it a bit later after I've got stuff laid out but it's this really awful, nagging feeling whenever I make something new, be it prop or brush, that "this isn't helping!" and it's really just frustrating, I can't get much anything done.
  • Introducing more buildings... thus more details.. architecture is frustrating sometimes.
  • Sealing off passages. Fences won't work for three seperate alleyways in one area, will they? Sigh. SIGH. SIGH.


The playing area is probably too big and discouraging as it is. Right? Here is how I've got it right now. I need to cut off some stuff. What/how?! And how will I deal with sealing off the huge expanse of hill? :

I feel like listing a to-do so I can see just how much I've got ahead of me.


  • Hole inside the corner building leading outside. Realistically. Maybe two of them. Back-of-head-performance-nagging-voice is shouting.
  • Damage to the parking lot, I've wanted to do this since I saw Finger's illustrations. Performance voice nagging a lot more...
  • Populate the environment with more buildings. They also need to have realistic layout, e.g. along streets. I can't just throw them all around the place like they seem to be in most maps. Do I even need to say that this is performance-worrying?
  • More flow, basically a few more connected rooms between some things I already have. Guess what, performance-worrying.
  • Texturing on the destroyed building, of course windows have to be blasted out rather than just sitting there. That sounds fun. It also sounds rather performance hurtful.


I can't even bother going on.. sigh.

I'll try to straighten out my thoughts on everything, decide what I'll have to do next, and just do it.. start cutting things down, trimming here and there...


-- midkay



Quote
 Re: dm_residential
Posted by reaper47 on Sat Aug 5th at 11:26am 2006

midk, this phase comes with every map. Just move through it. Or make a pause but at the same time think of when to start working on it again. I'd hate to see this map abandoned.




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