Thanks, Kasperg. The fan idea sounds interesting. I'm not sure if I find a way of implementing it but I really like it.
The dead ends are... well, I feel rather confident about building a circular or figure 8 layout so I decided to break this up a little and add a few harmless dead-ends here and there. The annoyance factor is hard to tell yet but I don't see anyone running in a dead end thinking "wtf, I'm trapped!".
If you find a dead end which feels very annoying please tell me. I consider closing or opening it to improve the flow.
Re: dm_3006
Posted by midkay on Mon Aug 28th at 11:22am 2006
Posted by midkay on Mon Aug 28th at 11:22am 2006
I agree with Kasperg in that the upper area is very provocative. That's a very good word to describe the feeling I (and apparently others) get whilst up there. " SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">
I do recall running into a few dead ends, but none of them really bothered me - I only recall a couple little "boxes" off the main level you could step into to get a weapon or somesuch. Could even call them good hiding places or ambush spots.
-- midkay
Re: dm_3006
Posted by reaper47 on Mon Aug 28th at 11:43am 2006
Posted by reaper47 on Mon Aug 28th at 11:43am 2006
Hmm, I think you mean the cardboard boxes underneath the fences? They were more decorative than anything. The reason I removed them from this version is that they were bugged somehow. You can still get the battery inside with some ggun acrobatics.
I don't know if anyone noticed, but there's another small shaft somwhere near the arch. Throw in a grenade and you should get some goodies.
I don't know if anyone noticed, but there's another small shaft somwhere near the arch. Throw in a grenade and you should get some goodies.
Re: dm_3006
Posted by midkay on Mon Aug 28th at 11:55am 2006
Posted by midkay on Mon Aug 28th at 11:55am 2006
Oh, no, sorry, I was unclear about that.
By "boxes" I meant tiny little rooms off the main map. Like you literally cut a hole in a wall and put an open box there for someone to walk into. No long corridors to walk down to hit a dead end; the dead ends are quite small and from what I recall simply box-shaped extrusions off the main level.
-- midkay
Re: dm_3006
Posted by reaper47 on Mon Aug 28th at 1:13pm 2006
Posted by reaper47 on Mon Aug 28th at 1:13pm 2006
Oh I get it. Well, they're appendixes of sort to give people cover when going around a corner. I always feel like straigth "L" shaped corridors make movement feel a bit "forced".
Re: dm_3006
Posted by Kasperg_JM on Mon Aug 28th at 4:26pm 2006
Posted by Kasperg_JM on Mon Aug 28th at 4:26pm 2006
Even if those appendixes will make the gameflow less forced, you should
give them some sort of significance in terms of the theme, so they
don't feel architecturally forced. Closed doors, ventshafts, windows or
other things would be the natural way to solve it, I think.
Re: dm_3006
Posted by [FF]FNDR.Jake_Brake on Mon Aug 28th at 5:43pm 2006
Posted by [FF]FNDR.Jake_Brake on Mon Aug 28th at 5:43pm 2006
Well, I have had this up and running for two days on my Dallas server. The reactions have been hot and cold. Those that love it state that it is a very unique layout, great textures, very good fps performance and really provides tremendous "atmosphere". Those that do not like it seem to point to one complaint: the lower levels being just too dark. I agree with Kasperg and Reapers points: More accessibility to the upper levels, and more weapon availability would add a lot. And, add at least one other spawn point up there. I also would lighten up the lower levels just a tad (not too much as I personally like the dark atmosphere as it adds a creepy feeling to the map)
BTW, I am in the camp that "loves" the map! Very clean, unique with crisp detail! I am going to keep the map in my rotation for awhile so keep up the great work!
Re: dm_3006
Posted by reaper47 on Fri Sep 1st at 12:08pm 2006
Agreed, I'll think of something!
[FF]FNDR.Jake_Brake, thanks a lot for the feedback! My internet connection was kinda non-existent the last few days so I could neither join the server or answer your post.
Thanks to you guys I now have a rather clear idea of what to change for the next update!
Posted by reaper47 on Fri Sep 1st at 12:08pm 2006
? quote:
Even if those appendixes will make the gameflow less forced, you should
give them some sort of significance in terms of the theme, so they
don't feel architecturally forced. Closed doors, ventshafts, windows or
other things would be the natural way to solve it, I think.
give them some sort of significance in terms of the theme, so they
don't feel architecturally forced. Closed doors, ventshafts, windows or
other things would be the natural way to solve it, I think.
Agreed, I'll think of something!
[FF]FNDR.Jake_Brake, thanks a lot for the feedback! My internet connection was kinda non-existent the last few days so I could neither join the server or answer your post.
Thanks to you guys I now have a rather clear idea of what to change for the next update!
Re: dm_3006
Posted by reaper47 on Fri Sep 1st at 12:16pm 2006
Posted by reaper47 on Fri Sep 1st at 12:16pm 2006
Heh, I know what you mean. I'll try out something with the next update ![<img src=]()
" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">
Re: dm_3006
Posted by Gwil on Mon Sep 4th at 12:01am 2006
Gwil
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Posted by Gwil on Mon Sep 4th at 12:01am 2006
The one overriding problem I can see with this map is a lack of
identity. The architecture and atmosphere are carried off well, but in
terms of having a clear and quickly understood layout, they do not
succeed.
A lot of the lower water areas look more or less the same. There is not much variation in lighting, room shape or size to give people clear landmarks to play by. Perhaps you incorporate in more side details, like insets in the walls covered by grates. Wires and cables, red/green lights, giant fans or even a pile of rubbish or a distinctive poster can help landmark the map.
My only other criticism would be that the layout also suffers from being too "circular". The escape opportunities from firefights tend to be limited to 2 exits at most, and only in a few areas is there z-axis incorporation. So far you have a good level but it needs refining and retuning in terms of gameplay mechanics. A good theme and good standard of construction is let down by an oversight of mechanics.
I'd list all the things I enjoy about the map, but that's already been done![<img src=]()
" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif"> There is potential for a classic map here.
A lot of the lower water areas look more or less the same. There is not much variation in lighting, room shape or size to give people clear landmarks to play by. Perhaps you incorporate in more side details, like insets in the walls covered by grates. Wires and cables, red/green lights, giant fans or even a pile of rubbish or a distinctive poster can help landmark the map.
My only other criticism would be that the layout also suffers from being too "circular". The escape opportunities from firefights tend to be limited to 2 exits at most, and only in a few areas is there z-axis incorporation. So far you have a good level but it needs refining and retuning in terms of gameplay mechanics. A good theme and good standard of construction is let down by an oversight of mechanics.
I'd list all the things I enjoy about the map, but that's already been done
Gwil
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Re: dm_3006
Posted by reaper47 on Mon Sep 4th at 8:25am 2006
This is what I'm working on right now. The underwater-secion is the most random part of the map. Only there to get an alternate route between two of the main parts of the map. I'm trying hard to give this part more identity.
EDIT: Actually, I was surprised so few people complaint about this part lacking a thematical purpose (probably because it's too dark to see much anyway?). I almost thought that my time is spent better on other parts of the map, only lighting it up a bit and then moving on. Your post finally forced me to make what I think will turn out as the right decision: Trash the whole underground areas and replace them by something more interesting. The blue-light pillars and water will stay in one form or another because I like it. But I'll try to make this section look like some bar/restaurant/shopping area, a bit more open, with a nice view on some underground skybox-backgrounds. I'm glad I could overcome my fears and re-build the section completely. I can also think of better better connectivity down there as the whole underground part always felt a bit to linear to me.
Thanks for pointing this out. I think I can "feel" the problem but it's hard to point a finger on the parts that need alternate routes ect. I'm a bit blind right now. Maybe you can name a few areas specifically that you think would need more escape opportunities?
Posted by reaper47 on Mon Sep 4th at 8:25am 2006
? quote:
A lot of the lower water areas look more or less the same. There is not much variation in lighting, room shape or size to give people clear landmarks to play by. Perhaps you incorporate in more side details, like insets in the walls covered by grates. Wires and cables, red/green lights, giant fans or even a pile of rubbish or a distinctive poster can help landmark the map.
This is what I'm working on right now. The underwater-secion is the most random part of the map. Only there to get an alternate route between two of the main parts of the map. I'm trying hard to give this part more identity.
EDIT: Actually, I was surprised so few people complaint about this part lacking a thematical purpose (probably because it's too dark to see much anyway?). I almost thought that my time is spent better on other parts of the map, only lighting it up a bit and then moving on. Your post finally forced me to make what I think will turn out as the right decision: Trash the whole underground areas and replace them by something more interesting. The blue-light pillars and water will stay in one form or another because I like it. But I'll try to make this section look like some bar/restaurant/shopping area, a bit more open, with a nice view on some underground skybox-backgrounds. I'm glad I could overcome my fears and re-build the section completely. I can also think of better better connectivity down there as the whole underground part always felt a bit to linear to me.
? quote:
My only other criticism would be that the layout also suffers from being too "circular". The escape opportunities from firefights tend to be limited to 2 exits at most, and only in a few areas is there z-axis incorporation. So far you have a good level but it needs refining and retuning in terms of gameplay mechanics. A good theme and good standard of construction is let down by an oversight of mechanics.
Thanks for pointing this out. I think I can "feel" the problem but it's hard to point a finger on the parts that need alternate routes ect. I'm a bit blind right now. Maybe you can name a few areas specifically that you think would need more escape opportunities?
Re: dm_3006
Posted by Gwil on Mon Sep 4th at 6:14pm 2006
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Posted by Gwil on Mon Sep 4th at 6:14pm 2006
I'll have a poke around tomorrow reaper and take some screenshots to
illustrate my ideas better ![<img src=]()
" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> If you can hang on til then? ![<img src=]()
" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">
Gwil
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Registered: Oct 13th 2001
Location: Derbyshire, UK
Occupation: Student
Re: dm_3006
Posted by reaper47 on Tue Sep 5th at 9:00am 2006
I'll try![<img src=]()
" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">
Posted by reaper47 on Tue Sep 5th at 9:00am 2006
? quote:
If you can hang on til then? 
I'll try
Re: dm_3006
Posted by Gwil on Wed Sep 13th at 10:34am 2006
This shot has been brightened (as have the others). The colour of that ladder is a sticker for blending in with the concrete. A quick glance makes it easy to miss. Stick in an emergency light or a recess to make it more noticeable.
Also, the area with the crossbow and charger could be extended IMO - another pathway, or perhaps access to ventilation systems, as seen in the lower levels with the RPG/SLAM. Reward players with 2 Combine balls - the ones out at the moment are easy to get!
One path syndrome. Such a large area, it is crying out for more escape routes / entry routes. Adding a door in either location which could lead either up or down gives opportunity to expand the Z-Axis, and remove the feeling of a single path experienced in this areas.
Also, while I understand it is an alpha, there is nothing in terms of detail or architecture to make this area identifiable as a "landmark".
Similar points to the shot above. Behind me is a redundant alcove, in front of me too! Are these going to be doors or stairs? There's a lot of recesses or gaps in walls which look like doors that aren't yet. Adding at least one in the blue pools areas will open up the dynamic so much more.
Similar points again. See how grey this area feels? There's no girders, light variation or indeed changes in architecture. Cut some pipes into those walls, vents, emergency lights, fencing, power boxes. Anything! It helps us to navigate a level if we have objects serving as landmarks. Also, it looks nice to have some variation in your brushes![<img src=]()
" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">
As above - also a prime culprit for "alcove syndrome". This area needs doors and variation in the brushwork. The atmosphere is good, but it's let down by seeming dull in terms of repeated shapes and flow.
And here we have a fine example of what this map really does well. The large jutted pillar, coupled with the light shaft coming down AND the big pile of rubbish (nice touch with the falling bottles, BTW![<img src=]()
" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">) makes
us recognise and instantly assess which way to pursue or escape
via. While the right hand side is a little "grey", the rest is
excellent. Using the grating over to the far left along with green
lights is the quick and easy method of adding that landmarking,
variation and detail to the map.
(I hope you can understand my scruffy Wacom handwriting![<img src=]()
" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">)
Gwil
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Posted by Gwil on Wed Sep 13th at 10:34am 2006
Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:
Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:
Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:
Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:
Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:
Here's some of the points I was talking about in my previous post, re - "one path" syndrome.This shot has been brightened (as have the others). The colour of that ladder is a sticker for blending in with the concrete. A quick glance makes it easy to miss. Stick in an emergency light or a recess to make it more noticeable.
Also, the area with the crossbow and charger could be extended IMO - another pathway, or perhaps access to ventilation systems, as seen in the lower levels with the RPG/SLAM. Reward players with 2 Combine balls - the ones out at the moment are easy to get!
One path syndrome. Such a large area, it is crying out for more escape routes / entry routes. Adding a door in either location which could lead either up or down gives opportunity to expand the Z-Axis, and remove the feeling of a single path experienced in this areas.
Also, while I understand it is an alpha, there is nothing in terms of detail or architecture to make this area identifiable as a "landmark".
Similar points to the shot above. Behind me is a redundant alcove, in front of me too! Are these going to be doors or stairs? There's a lot of recesses or gaps in walls which look like doors that aren't yet. Adding at least one in the blue pools areas will open up the dynamic so much more.
Similar points again. See how grey this area feels? There's no girders, light variation or indeed changes in architecture. Cut some pipes into those walls, vents, emergency lights, fencing, power boxes. Anything! It helps us to navigate a level if we have objects serving as landmarks. Also, it looks nice to have some variation in your brushes
As above - also a prime culprit for "alcove syndrome". This area needs doors and variation in the brushwork. The atmosphere is good, but it's let down by seeming dull in terms of repeated shapes and flow.
And here we have a fine example of what this map really does well. The large jutted pillar, coupled with the light shaft coming down AND the big pile of rubbish (nice touch with the falling bottles, BTW
- Improve gameflow, especially in the flooded areas. It is too close to being a single track level when two large areas like that are sourced by only a handful of doors.
- Break up the architecture - add girders, work with some new
shapes. Remebering a level by the idea of "the room with the pipes" or
"ramp room" is classic navigation.
- Expand the z-axis play. Intergrate more venting and suspended walkways. With the extra doors added and layout reformed, there is plenty of scope for intergrating 1/2 new areas with a layout consistent with the current alpha.
(I hope you can understand my scruffy Wacom handwriting
Gwil
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Re: dm_3006
Posted by Kasperg_JM on Wed Sep 13th at 1:07pm 2006
Posted by Kasperg_JM on Wed Sep 13th at 1:07pm 2006
I think those tips are great. The concrete textures work very well in the outside areas because of the light and contrast.
The same massive concrete surfaces seem to suffer in the interiors because the size and lighting style are not enough to give them the same value.
As Gwill said, you can either spice up the interiors or open up even more shafts of light into these rooms (like the one in the fifth pic Gwill posted). Everyone mostly agrees that the map could be a bit brighter, but I don't know if it would take something away from the map. The transitition is very nice with HDR.
Since it's a multiplayer map, I think you'll have to go with what's best for the gameflow and not the visuals.![<img src=]()
" SRC="images/smiles/sad.gif">
Speaking of the underground rooms. Something that you could do is using a lighting color code to make navigation easier. For example, you could have your blue lights in the alcoves and beneath the pillars, while all the exits would be lit with a green/othercolor hue. I think things like that could make learning the map easier.
The same massive concrete surfaces seem to suffer in the interiors because the size and lighting style are not enough to give them the same value.
As Gwill said, you can either spice up the interiors or open up even more shafts of light into these rooms (like the one in the fifth pic Gwill posted). Everyone mostly agrees that the map could be a bit brighter, but I don't know if it would take something away from the map. The transitition is very nice with HDR.
Since it's a multiplayer map, I think you'll have to go with what's best for the gameflow and not the visuals.
Speaking of the underground rooms. Something that you could do is using a lighting color code to make navigation easier. For example, you could have your blue lights in the alcoves and beneath the pillars, while all the exits would be lit with a green/othercolor hue. I think things like that could make learning the map easier.
Re: dm_3006
Posted by reaper47 on Wed Sep 13th at 3:16pm 2006
Posted by reaper47 on Wed Sep 13th at 3:16pm 2006
Wow, thanks Gwil! I will look at those tips very closely to incorporate them as much as I can.
PS: I like the tablet-writing.![<img src=]()
" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">
PS: I like the tablet-writing.
Re: dm_3006
Posted by reaper47 on Fri Nov 10th at 6:41pm 2006
Posted by reaper47 on Fri Nov 10th at 6:41pm 2006
This version is outdated. For comments and suggestions see Alpha2a look here!
Check out the map profile for a changelog.
Check out the map profile for a changelog.
Re: dm_3006
Posted by midkay on Fri Nov 10th at 9:35pm 2006
Posted by midkay on Fri Nov 10th at 9:35pm 2006
It's great to hear that, reaper47. Nice to have an update on this. ![<img src=]()
" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Can't wait for an alpha2.
I think boosts in motivation are universal. Over the past few days I got done 75% of the work I needed to do in order to release a beta 2 of dm_residential (shhhh, let's keep this on the down-low). Hooray for productivity!
I think boosts in motivation are universal. Over the past few days I got done 75% of the work I needed to do in order to release a beta 2 of dm_residential (shhhh, let's keep this on the down-low). Hooray for productivity!
-- midkay
Re: dm_3006
Posted by reaper47 on Thu Nov 16th at 6:09pm 2006
Posted by reaper47 on Thu Nov 16th at 6:09pm 2006
Not that it's a big surprise but everything takes longer than I feared. Wheee!
I'm really thinking a lot about layout right now and that doesn't let me focus on eyecandy at all (not. at. all.). So no screenshots any time soon. I'd like, however, to get some ideas about the layout changes.
Especially Gwil's post was a huge help here and I'm trying to incorporate as much of the feedback as I can. Maybe there will be an unofficial release that's not meant to run on any server but is solely there to allow the layout experts to have a dry look at the changes.
I'm really thinking a lot about layout right now and that doesn't let me focus on eyecandy at all (not. at. all.). So no screenshots any time soon. I'd like, however, to get some ideas about the layout changes.
Especially Gwil's post was a huge help here and I'm trying to incorporate as much of the feedback as I can. Maybe there will be an unofficial release that's not meant to run on any server but is solely there to allow the layout experts to have a dry look at the changes.
Re: dm_3006
Posted by G.Ballblue on Fri Nov 17th at 4:10pm 2006
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Posted by G.Ballblue on Fri Nov 17th at 4:10pm 2006
If anything, please don't change screen 2 (if you already haven't) since the way you managed to set the water up is great. The half-arched hallway in the distance was nicely done, too.
Screenshot 3 has an interesting glow effect -- but I can't get the thought out of my head that the lighting is a bit crummy. The shadows scream "quake 1" in my opinion, and it doesn't look like they're bouncing enough. Too abrubt, and to splotchy -- at least, in my opinion.
The only other suggestion I have is to get some texture variation -- the majority of this map seems to consist of brown/concrete/brick stuff, and that can get incredibly confusing really quick. Apart from the above, good job so far![<img src=]()
" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">
Screenshot 3 has an interesting glow effect -- but I can't get the thought out of my head that the lighting is a bit crummy. The shadows scream "quake 1" in my opinion, and it doesn't look like they're bouncing enough. Too abrubt, and to splotchy -- at least, in my opinion.
The only other suggestion I have is to get some texture variation -- the majority of this map seems to consist of brown/concrete/brick stuff, and that can get incredibly confusing really quick. Apart from the above, good job so far
G.Ballblue
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Breaking the laws of mapping since 2003 and doing a damn fine job at it
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