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 Re: FF_Flare
Posted by BlisTer on Wed Jan 10th at 10:12pm 2007

? quoting Captain P
I think those greyish flat parts are a nice, easy-on-the-eye contrast to the heavily filled, complex ceilings. It's sort of saying: "Yes, this map has a unique style, and it looks pretty, but here's the route to take, don't get distracted."

I do think Orph makes a good point though, about the lighting and generally, color contrast. It's generally very bright, with too little contrast to break it up. Perhaps that's why I like the brow-greyish floor parts so much, because at least those are a bit darker so they stand out somewhat.
I like the outside, with it's high tower rising up in the night, lit by a few spotlights, but again, I think more contrast could greatly improve the feeling. A darker skybox, a darker top of the tower, with bright spotlights shining up to it... sppoky.

Yep a nightsky is an option. i'll do a night compile and a post a screen here.

Also bear in mind that it's an FF map so i feel the areas where the player can come should be bright to not hinder the (fast) gameplay. That's why i have most of my shadows on the walls or ceilings.

? quoting Dark_Kilauea

It looks nice to me, except that it looks... too clean. It looks cleaner than a hospital. Put some trash in there, or have some broken equipment or wires. I think a little trash and wear and tear would do wonders for this map.

I don't really agree that it looks to clean. The panels have a "dirty" spec map and the concrete has a "dirty" normalmap. btw, it's still an FF map.. so i won't add litter :P

I do agree that i could add cracks decals to the concrete in some places.




These words are my diaries screaming out loud



Quote
 Re: FF_Flare
Posted by Orpheus on Thu Jan 11th at 12:52am 2007

This is a picture that Zombieloffe posted that I agree with as to how I envision lights looking in any map. Its a fair representation anyway. I know its not what you want, but its what I had in mind when I was commenting earlier. Sometimes, pictures speak better examples.

image





The best things in life, aren't things.



Quote
 Re: FF_Flare
Posted by BlisTer on Thu Jan 11th at 8:09am 2007

? quoting Orpheus
This is a picture that Zombieloffe posted that I agree with as to how I envision lights looking in any map. Its a fair representation anyway. I know its not what you want, but its what I had in mind when I was commenting earlier. Sometimes, pictures speak better examples.

image

well there's no question that in most cases it's better with lightspots than with lights. the 2 lightspot above one another, one small one facing the source and a bigger one facing the floor is a well-known trick. The thing is, i use it in most places if you look closely, see the 3rd, 4th and 5th screenshot.




These words are my diaries screaming out loud



Quote
 Re: FF_Flare
Posted by Junkyard God on Thu Jan 11th at 9:32am 2007

I think this is a nicely styled map, but i think you're red lights in the map don't stick out enough.
The whole map is quite blandly lit as far as i can tell from the screenies.
But thinking of old tfc maps they were also always 'well lit' so to speak to make the gameplay maybe a tad better.

conclusion of this sketchy comment: the map looks good but i think you could improve it by tweaking the lighting a bit.
For example in the 4th screenie of the thread, the red lighting near the walls, could stand out a bit moe if you made the rest of the lights somewhat dimmer (i think).

Such lighting themes in my opinion ususaly make maps more interesting to the eye and maybe some what more exiting if you're walking around in such places, instead of having most of the level have the same well lit clean feeling to it.
This would also maybe solve some other comments concerning the map looking cleaner than the IC unit in a hospital <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Anyways, think it looks quite interesting ,and since i'm still looking forward to playing FF i think this map would make a nice addition to it. keep it up! <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">




Hell, is an half-filled auditorium



Quote
 Re: FF_Flare
Posted by reaper47 on Thu Jan 11th at 11:20am 2007

? quote:
This is a picture that Zombieloffe posted that I agree with as to how I envision lights looking in any map. Its a fair representation anyway. I know its not what you want, but its what I had in mind when I was commenting earlier. Sometimes, pictures speak better examples.

image



You know me, I'm a lighting fetishist, and first I too thought it's all about the lighting. But I don't think that's it. All the tricks in the "GOOD" picture are there. Maybe there could be more cold/warm contrast and a night setting for the outside could bring some brightness contrasts. Maybe the ceilings could be darker...

But there's actually some very nice lighting going on like in this pic or here.

But the texturing is very bright also, so it might be responsible for the brightness.

One more idea: How about trying to make the map more clean, taking a bit of bumpmap contrast from the concrete textures and making the red stripe paint cleaner? I actually always liked the "cleaness" of this style and maybe it gets lost a bit behind the very classic looking concrete. You could still keep the concrete/high tech metal contrast. I think right now the concrete dominates a bit, while probably it should be the clean plates that should dominate.

Yea, just random thoughts. Again, I like this a lot. It's just about the finer details and contrast.


Why snark works.



Quote
 Re: FF_Flare
Posted by BlisTer on Thu Jan 11th at 11:23pm 2007

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Here's the nightsky version, i think it looks somewhat better and since leagueplay hasnt got fighting in the midfield i think i can get away with it. let me know what you think.

? quoting Junkyard God
For example in the 4th screenie of the thread, the red lighting near the walls, could stand out a bit moe if you made the rest of the lights somewhat dimmer (i think).

Ok this gave me serious doubts about my monitor settings? The red lights in the 4th screenshot are placed completely in shadow, there isnt one white/yellow light shining on there and stand out great imo. the only whiteness shining on there is from bounces, and since you see those bounces as making the red not stand out, i asked myself if the lights are really too overdone bright. So i did a fast compile of the ramproom with dimmed lights. i also replaced the few lights i had with light_spots. I do agree that it is more athmospheric, but on my monitor this is simply not acceptable for a FF map. This would only suit HL2SP or maybe HL2DM or other slowpaced mods. comments?




These words are my diaries screaming out loud



Quote
 Re: FF_Flare
Posted by reaper47 on Fri Jan 12th at 1:01am 2007

The stronger contrast is interesting, but I too fear the map could drown in darkness. Maybe just keep the night-sky and probably the darker ceilings (and other things in the background outside of gameplay areas).

Anyway instead of talking so much about what probably can't be described in words I did what I should have done all the time and took some screens. First is a screen that I think describes all my concerns about texturing in general:

image

I know it's a mean perspective, but it also is a very common part to see for the player. If the transition from a concrete to a metal surface was really so clean, the concrete would be less shabby. If the concrete was as dirty, there would be a border, gap or any other, more structured transition. Just compare the border of the red stripe to the white paint with the polygonal border to the metal-surface. It's impossible. You can't cut concrete like this so cleanly into a metal-surface. Probably making the concrete a little cleaner would do the polished metal-style the most justice. Or there could be a thin border-stripe on the top and bottom of the concrete texture...

This is all I was talking about the last few posts, so... nothing more to say about it (at last image ).

While taking screenshots I also found a few texturing (or brushwork) errors. These little things stand out quite a bit because it's quite striking compared to the very clean rest of the map. Here's a little collage:

image


Why snark works.



Quote
 Re: FF_Flare
Posted by Orpheus on Fri Jan 12th at 3:20am 2007

Just by looking at the screens, I favor the night theme.

Lights again I'm afraid. I pick the night, because it gave me my desire. The daytime, looks to close to fullbright. I guess if I were told to pick a word that best describes yesterdays conversation I'd pick "Stark" The screens are to stark for my taste.

Again, thats not a bad thing, its my taste, not the end of the world. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">





The best things in life, aren't things.



Quote
 Re: FF_Flare
Posted by Naklajat on Fri Jan 12th at 5:50am 2007

  • I'm sure the movement in Fortress Forever is (will be?) faster than HL2DM (which is like clodding through mud with your shoelaces tied together), but there's a fine line between 'spacious' and 'over-scaled' and I'm afraid this leans more toward the latter. I feel about 2-4 feet tall running through this level, depending on the area.

  • The yellowish lighting + gray textures on most everything makes the map look and feel monotonous. Throw in some more variation in the lighting, and get a more varied texture palette than the handful of different gray concrete and metal textures. I like the actual form beneath the gray textures, but there's just not enough color variation to excite the player's eyes as it stands. Also as someone else pointed out the speckled gray floor texture is pretty bland, I think a bump/normal map and a little dirtying up of both the texture and the specular alpha map would help it a lot.

  • The big round recessed light things LOD out way too close, and it makes a very noticeable transition.

  • The fan that pushes you to the upper level needs work, when you jump up you hit the ceiling and land on the very edge of the top floor, at best.


    • =o



    Quote
     Re: FF_Flare
    Posted by BlisTer on Fri Jan 12th at 3:54pm 2007

    Thx for going through it with a toothbrush Reaper <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif"> i'll try to fix most of those. i'll also try to shift the concrete texture a bit downward to make the upper edge of the texture visible. that will hopefully give it enough of a transition effect, as i can't afford to put in seperate brushes at every transition, and i also don't want to lose the detailed normalmap of the concrete.

    ? quoting Baron von Snickers

  • I'm sure the movement in Fortress Forever is (will be?) faster than HL2DM (which is like clodding through mud with your shoelaces tied together), but there's a fine line between 'spacious' and 'over-scaled' and I'm afraid this leans more toward the latter. I feel about 2-4 feet tall running through this level, depending on the area.

    • i first was affraid about this too. The "clodding through mud with your shoelaces tied together" really gives that feeling about us being small and the rooms too large, because it simply takes some time to cross them. However i suggest you take a look at the latest FF gameplay video. If you even look at medium classes like the sniper, he runs very fast. For a true feeling about dimensions and time needed to travel them, run through Flare with the boost on. I feel it's just about right. Also i feel the high ceilings and "wide" corridors aren't too high, but just high enough to conc/trim/double jump freely without feeling cramped. For gameplay reasons i implemented two bottlenecks (top ramp and T) for defense to put a halt to all this free movement.

    I'll see what i can do about the LOD and airlift, thx for the feedback <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">




    These words are my diaries screaming out loud



    Quote
     Re: FF_Flare
    Posted by BlisTer on Fri Jan 12th at 9:12pm 2007

    update: did another iteration with a slightly brighter & more varied skybox, i think it's a good middle ground. check 1st shot in its profile.


    These words are my diaries screaming out loud



    Quote
     Re: FF_Flare
    Posted by Captain P on Fri Jan 12th at 10:01pm 2007

    Hmm, I think it's a good balance now. Not too opresssingly dark, not too bright and contrastless.

    Are you planning to convert this to TF2 when it gets released bytheway?


    Create-ivity - a game development blog



    Quote
     Re: FF_Flare
    Posted by BlisTer on Sat Jan 13th at 11:22pm 2007

    Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

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    Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

    beta 2 is online

    While i still stand by my brightness on the floor, there seemed to be a general consensus that there wasnt enough contrast. so overal i changed most lights to light_spots to have more contrast on the floor. Light on ceilings and walls is dimmed somewhat. I think there's a nice balance between "being able to see fast enemy" and "atmosphereic contrast" now.

    Furter changes include some minor issues Reaper mentioned (i wasnt able to make your requested transition (yet) though), and the airlift that propels you somewhat horizontally into the upper corridor now. The dusk nightsky is a fact now too.

    I'm going to India for a week, i'll be glad to receive more feedback when i get back. Cya!




    These words are my diaries screaming out loud



    Quote
     Re: FF_Flare
    Posted by ReNo on Mon Jan 15th at 10:19am 2007

    Yup, thats a big improvement mate! My big complaint is about the floors really, as you have these really interesting ceilings throughout, but absolutely nothing going on on the ground. To make matters worse, one of the textures you are using a lot on the floors is extremely clean and near featureless, which doesn't sit well with the fairly crisp and detailed concrete texture used frequently alongside it.

    Looking very distinctive though mate, keep it up <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Have a nice time in India!



    Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net



    Quote
     Re: FF_Flare
    Posted by Gwil on Mon Jan 15th at 3:46pm 2007

    I'd actually be a little more brutal and say that the tiles on the floor look hideous, they bring the whole map down. I'd suggest maybe scaling them up to 0.50 or using an alternative colour.

    I'd reckon you could go with some more lighting to neutralise the "circles" effect you have here - it might be personal preference on my part, but I prefer spot lighting such as that to be used sparsely.




    Quote
     Re: FF_Flare
    Posted by BlisTer on Fri Jan 19th at 6:04pm 2007

    Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

    Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

    Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

    @Cpt P; maybe, but then TF2 would have to be as fast as FF, otherwise the dimensions would be too large.

    ? quoting Reno
    My big complaint is about the floors really, as you have these really interesting ceilings throughout, but absolutely nothing going on on the ground. To make matters worse, one of the textures you are using a lot on the floors is extremely clean and near featureless, which doesn't sit well with the fairly crisp and detailed concrete texture used frequently alongside it.

    I see your point, and it has equally been brought up by other ppl. The problem with floors is that you can't vary in the z-direction too much, otherwise it would hinder movement and line of sight. In contrast, this is possible on ceilings and walls. So I experimented a bit with XY variation and a concrete, non-shiny texture too match the walls better. Plz share your feelings about the screens below.

    ? quoting Gwil
    the tiles on the floor look hideous, they bring the whole map down. I'd suggest maybe scaling them up to 0.50 or using an alternative colour.

    i used that colour as it comes back in the wall and ceiling panels, hence improving style harmony. I tried experimenting with .5 scale though, take a look at one of the floor tile stripes in the screenshots below.





    These words are my diaries screaming out loud



    Quote
     Re: FF_Flare
    Posted by reaper47 on Fri Jan 19th at 9:13pm 2007

    For z-variation with the floor you could put something underneath it and a grating texture on top. The parts underneath had to be very dark or otherwise in the background so it doesn't distract too much.

    Just a thought.


    Why snark works.



    Quote
     Re: FF_Flare
    Posted by fishy on Sat Jan 20th at 1:02am 2007

    the tiles look better at their original size. though making them more grubby with some 'stain' or 'blood' overlays to break up the monotony, would lead to fewer complaints. the walls could probably use some in places too.




    i eat paint



    Quote
     Re: FF_Flare
    Posted by Dark_Kilauea on Sat Jan 20th at 6:13pm 2007

    I hate to say this, but you should consider putting in a few crates, to add cover for the players to hide behind.

    Some of these areas are way to open for those that like short range combat <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


    Dark_Kilauea
    DVS Administration
    http://www.dvstudio-production.com/



    Quote
     Re: FF_Flare
    Posted by BlisTer on Mon Jan 22nd at 6:27pm 2007

    Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

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    Well i feel we're slowly getting there <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">

    I took another detailed look at all the remarks and i felt that these still stood out a bit:

    • some of the rooms to feel a bit empty
    • red lights in the map don't stick out enough
    • The yellowish lighting + gray textures on most everything makes the map look and feel monotonous. Throw in some more variation in the lighting
    • nothing going on on the ground. To make matters worse, one of the textures you are using a lot on the floors is extremely clean and near featureless, which doesn't sit well with the fairly crisp and detailed concrete texture used frequently alongside it.
    • tiles on the floor look hideous, they bring the whole map down. I'd suggest maybe scaling them up to 0.50 or using an alternative colour
    • 'stain' or 'blood' overlays

    apart from these, i got remarks about that the bare parts could do with more panelling, and that the yard could be improved.

    So i mixed all these remarks in a big c**ktail and came up with an expansion of style. i felt the coloured lights i now mainly had in the upper corridors could be expanded onto the yard, main ramproom and lower corridors. For the latter 2 i combined them into more interesting floorwork. apart from that i used more panelling in the frontside of the bases. apart from the overall yellowish and blue/red colourd lighting, i also threw in more white for variation and contrast. i also darkened the colour of the floortiles somewhat and added stains here and there. furthermore i added flag direction signs.

    remarks are welcome!

    download beta 3




    These words are my diaries screaming out loud




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