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fy_trailertrash_beta
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 Re: fy_trailertrash_beta
Posted by Bender on Sun Mar 18th at 5:25pm 2007

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TRAILER TRASH IS HERE! Welcome to my official second full release.

Some of you might know that I have been working on the de_mentalhospital map. Well just to take a light-hearted break from that map, I decided on doing something on a much smaller scale, and here we are! I know that this forum isn't necessarily "pro-fy_ or killbox", but i think thats because there are just so many really crappy fy_ and killbox maps out there. I've attempted to break the fy_ mold with my very first map fy_thejunkyard, which has evolved into cs_thejunkyard (which i need to get on here btw), and now here is my second fy_ map which I hope is a step in the right direction as far as these types of maps go. I forsee this map working very well with the CSS GunGame Mod if any of you are familiar with that. In any event take this map for what it is, a small fun, quick n' dirty, pull the trigger as fast as you can romp. Enjoy!


DOWNLOAD HERE: fy_trailertrash_beta

Here is the Map text that precedes the team selection menu in-game:
***********************
Counter-Strike: Source
***********************

TITLE: fy_trailertrash_beta
DEVELOPER: BENDER

E-MAIL: jacobsummer@hotmail.com
WEBSITE: www.MercEx.net
DATE RELEASED: March 2007


DESCRIPTION:
It's an all out slugfest inside and out of this Trashy Trailer! First team dead loses!
Perfect for your GunGame Mod or just to bang around with a few bots, fy_trailertrash_beta is here for you to enjoy with seriously fast paced action, and fun gameplay. Beware of the sides of the trailer which may be shot out and blown open for access!

Thank You:
-The Merciless Exiles Clan for their unwavering support in my mapping.[www.MercEx.net]
-The Snarkpit crew for technical support and exposure.[www.snarkpit.net]
-My wife who knows how much I enjoy mapping.
-Anyone who enjoys and plays this map. THANK YOU!


**CHECK OUT THESE FINE OTHER MAPS FROM BENDER available at Mercex.net!
-cs_thejunkyard
-fy_thejunkyard
-de_mentalhospital *COMING SOON* see snarkpit.net or Mercex.net for details.

BEANS FOR NEW SCREENS! ENJOY!
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Enjoy the map everyone! It is a beta release, so if there are enough suggestions about something in particular, I will improve and re-release. But for now, she's done!

~BENDER





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 Re: fy_trailertrash_beta
Posted by Kasperg_JM on Tue Mar 20th at 12:20am 2007

Two tips that come to mind by looking at the screenshots:

Use the PaintAlpha tool with the displacements, because the grass texture looks unrealistically even throughout the whole map. The displacements are too pointy and seem unnatural in some parts. There are quite a few trees and rock models you should use to spice up the background.

As far as lighting goes, I see you have a light enviroment because the inside of the building is dark and there's a shadow under the wooden platform. Other than that it looks fullbright.
Use a different light color, give it more contrast and a lower pitch value (something like -40). Give the light a non 90? direction.

The thing is, just because the concept is simple and the map is small, doesn't mean you can't do a whole lot of things to make it very pretty. The Source engine has a lot to offer!




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 Re: fy_trailertrash_beta
Posted by Elon Yariv on Tue Mar 20th at 10:03am 2007

Ok where to begin. The sun is almost never shines right above you, thats because most of the hours of the day it's either acenending or decending(well, it looks like it does, I know it doesn't), also most of the year it doesn't rise exectly in the east and decent exectly in the west, the location changes through out the year. And a little advice, never make maps that happen at noon, the lighting is more intresting when the shadows are quite long, but it doesn't have to be dusk or dawn. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">
Add a sun(I think the entity is called env_sun, but I'm not sure), place it somewhere in the east or west. In the middle of the day it should be high up. In the dusk or dawn it should be low, even partly hidden.

As for the map it self- just a little cabin with fances and lots of props. A little displacement in the edges of the map. You should blend dirt textures with that grass, make the dump's ground it self coverd with dirt with only small patches of grass. The whole layout is boring just a square with nowhere to hide. Though garbge dumps don't need much building maybe you can add some more, and don't place them in an orginized pattren, random will look better. Need more garbge doesn't have to be props, it can be piles of rubbles, the props shouldn't be the main attraction.

The location of the dump is rather peculiar! Where would you usally find dumps. Near a city, usally the slums of a city. Then you should surround this little dump with a few old building in poor conditions.


Elon Yariv



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 Re: fy_trailertrash_beta
Posted by Junkyard God on Tue Mar 20th at 10:22am 2007

Even if the sun isn't 'acending or decending' it won't be directly above you unless you live on the equator. (is that what it's called, line on the mdidle of the earth?)
Also, there seems to be very little cover for people to hide around, for a half decent player it's just picking out heads from the looks of it.

The idea is pretty nice, but I think you need to enhance it a bit, maybe make a trailor park or something like that.


Hell, is an half-filled auditorium



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 Re: fy_trailertrash_beta
Posted by Bender on Tue Mar 20th at 8:50pm 2007

Hey guys thanks for takin the time to check out my map, and i appreciate the criticism, and I can honestly nod my head in agreement with just about everything you've said.

With that said... a few things to note:

Obvious stuff:

-Yeah, the skybox ain't pretty. I suck at getting them lined up, and displacements aren't exactly my forte. Any skybox volunteers can get credit if they'd like to improve it for me? I'm partially too lazy/partially too unskilled to fix for now.

-true, map lighting at noon isn't the most thrilling, however a midday, high noon kinda feel was what i wanted. I wanted the map to be very bright, but not fullbright. It's bright,a nd it's staying bright, maybe i'll throw in a touch more angle to the sunlight, but i dont want much.

-I was having diffuculty gettin an env_sun to work, I knew of them and wanted one, i just didnt know how. snark tuts did not help.

-The lack of cover was done intentionally. (here is my CS philosophy) To me, this will force players to get close to and utilize the trailer (which is what i wanted). Adding too much surrounding cover I feel would decrease a team's NEED to move forward and engage, as well as encourage spawn camping (something I did NOT want). If you play the map with bots you know that if you spawn camp, you're toast. Move towards the trailer, throw nades/flash/smoke, ambush and flank from within the trailer to gain the advantage. I did not want either team camping spawn waiting to pick off joe rambo who will come runnin round the corner. to me, LACK of cover, forces everyone into 'rambo' mode, and encourages a bit more of creativity and combat than if there were enough cover for everyone to hide behind.

I've playtested hundreds of rounds (with bots) in this map so its what i've noticed so far. as han solo once said though "good against drones is one thing kid, good against the living, well...thats something else". I have yet to get it on a server (i've had two offers which will prolly happen), so i will report back how it does with some live brains playin.

other comments are still very welcome





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 Re: fy_trailertrash_beta
Posted by reaper47 on Tue Mar 20th at 11:30pm 2007

Yea, adding cover would add cover-tactics and sniping which CS surely isn't made for. It's clearly a fast-paced fraggin' shooter for quake-style rambo fights. Also anyone who buys a weapon other than the MP5, deagle, colt, sig or aug is homosexual.

Wow, was that me? It's just that this fy_lol-philosophy killed what made the original CS such an intense and tactical game. While at the same time people kept complaining about superficial crap like bunny-hopping resulting in annoying "improved" motion-stopping movement slow-downs that today even infect DM games. Maybe it's nobody's fault and people got bored with what CS originally stood for and are now only using the bare run-and-gun core gameplay because, while being monotone, it still causes a lot of flashes and explosions which will always be entertaining enough for a quick round.

Really, this rant isn't aimed at you, personally, Bender. I just can't read a paragraph like "The lack of cover was done intentionally" without remembering the times when cs_backally and cs_siege were popular and fun to play maps.

I actually like the trailer-thingy itself, though. And the fact that you can climb up to the roof.

The problem with the map's visuals is that at no point you seemed to plan the outer corners of the game-field resulting in a big, square box with some terribly bald green(?) mountains(!?!) filling about 50% of the screen in most places.


Why snark works.



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 Re: fy_trailertrash_beta
Posted by Junkyard God on Tue Mar 20th at 11:44pm 2007

Indeed, the good old maps and tactics are forgotten in todays counter strike, only verry few people actually like to play anything but fy maps, aim maps, and dust versions, aztec versions and maybe one or two other maps.

While the realy fun in the game, imo, lays in the maps like siege etc.

Anyways, back on topic:

I think you have a pretty decent explenation for most faults, I would really try and get the skybox fixed, it's not that much trouble if you just follow a quick tutorial here on snarkpit.

The rest seems pretty much the way you intended it to be, and even for an fy map, I guess that if you made what you wanted, how you wanted it, it's not bad.


Hell, is an half-filled auditorium



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 Re: fy_trailertrash_beta
Posted by Bender on Wed Mar 21st at 1:37am 2007

reaper i know EXACTLY what you are saying, junkyard you too. In all honesty, I DO enjoy a tactical game over many of the fy_ maps that are out there (cuz as i've stated before, many are much more of teh suck than this one IMO). The point of this map is just NOT to be tactical, its meant to be a run-n-gun slugfest, which i think we can all appreciate a time and place for, and I think this map does it fairly well, giving even tactical players some (although limited) options. haha i thought i sensed some sarcasm in that opening line reap.

My other main map that I am working on if you haven't checked it out (de_mentalhospital) is much more intended for that tactical player. The goal of that map is to put both teams into an uncomfortable scary, unsettling setting.

This trailertrash map was something i whipped up, in somewhat of a hurry (i'd say 6 weeks) for my friends who play on servers that have these run-n-gun type maps. Servers I play on also do a lot of gungame mod, which this type of map would be ideal for i'd think.

Yes this map is certainly not an exercise in what the HL2 engine is capable of...could it be better...yes, do i have the time/will to upgrade? not really, but never say never.

I don't want to make a career of making fy_ maps, they don't appeal to a large enough audience, and I am certaily MUCH more capable above and beyond the "one-big-box-with-everything-in-it" syndrome. (see de_mentalhospital). I guess just take this map for what it is...an fy_map that ain't horribly ridiculous, very playable, and fun.

any of you guys play it with some bots yet?





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 Re: fy_trailertrash_beta
Posted by Riven on Wed Mar 21st at 3:19am 2007

I did, and I must say it's very fast paced. I was looking for the breakable areas, but only found them because the bots shot them out first which caught me off guard (they killed me immediately). I played on the idea of throwing a flash up high to blind everyone one on the other side at the beginning; albeit I could see that getting really old really fast online.

I didn't like how small the trailer was (I know it was in proportion to a real-life trailer, and you pulled it off quite well). It was too small to protect yourself with, and most of the time I avoided entering it because it turned into a death trap because of the small spaces and open windows on every wall (not to mention the breakable walls). An enemy would just have to take a peak through a window to catch anyone off-guard in there. I know it's an fy_ map, but even those have some cover, which I just didn't see here. If there were any tactical advantages in the map, they were purely accidental. I think the environment was accurate; the trailer looked believable, but the scene around it was not.

? quoting Bender

-The lack of cover was done intentionally. (here is my CS philosophy) To me, this will force players to get close to and utilize the trailer

"[Utilizing] the trailer" was my last plan of attack. I treated it as a large wall to separate my team from the other's at spawn. It's not bad for players to get close, (it's a good idea) but when there's nothing to retreat to during a fire fight, it boils down to a "who saw who first" competition.

? quoting Bender

To me, LACK of cover, forces everyone into 'rambo' mode, and encourages a bit more of creativity and combat than if there were enough cover for everyone to hide behind.

Well, I think when you take the "tactical" aspect out of Counter-Strike, your left with a mediocre game. Once again I realize this is supposed to be an fy_ map, but my argument remains: The less cover, the less strategy. This "rambo mode" you speak of is what happens when you put a bunch of people in a room and give them guns. There really is no thinking to go along with the killing, and it really dulls the "win" factor because then, it no longer is as fair as it would have been. It's the person with the fastest hand; a Russian roulette of sorts.

When I load up an fy_ map, I'm expecting fast game play. I may suspect it'll be a pretty basic layout, but a good fy_map will have its tactical advantages. I'm not seeing that here. It's all about surprise with this map.

Final Thoughts:
Yes the map is basic, and you established that, so I'm not pointing out "wrong" aspects per-say. I just think you would be losing a lot of interest from people when they play this version. Your cutting its longevity down because of its simplicity.

/rant

P.S. Excuse me for being harsh, The map has potential and is a good idea. It's fine the way it is because it is a functional map that offers fast game play, (which I love) and it does cause you to think even faster, just not the kind of thinking I surmised Counter-Strike to be all about (i.e. tactics).

Good Job so far!




Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202



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 Re: fy_trailertrash_beta
Posted by Elon Yariv on Wed Mar 21st at 10:20am 2007

So you want a "king of the hill" styled map. Well as Riven said the 'hill' is a death trap, nobody would like to stay there.

First you really should place it on a hill, Hight advantage. Then you could add small cover that wouldn't be higher then the hill. Also you need to fortify the hill. Not real fortifications I mean. Something that'll fit the theme. How about toxic waste pits scattered around the hill with empty barrels around them, happens even now a day in some dumps. Also to add an advatage to the hill, place a very very strong weapon there.

If there are cars in this dump then where are the cranes, the thingy that crashes the cars and turns them into small cubes. And finally the convoyer that leads those cubes to the place they are melted. You don't have to map it all it can be in the 3D skybox. I know you aren't good at 3D skyboxes, but you must learn how to use them someday. This map has a great potantial, you must work on it more.


Elon Yariv



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 Re: fy_trailertrash_beta
Posted by reaper47 on Wed Mar 21st at 10:38am 2007

Well, it's OK. The map has vrad run and accaptable brushwork and texturing which puts it above the majority of fy_ maps.

Did you run cubemaps btw? Those reflections look a bit fullbright.

I'm also coming to a point where I don't really feel like "blaming" anyone, including the mappers, for the lack of tactical maps. I think that players simply got too good, learning the one most effective way of playing a given map (especially default ones) so the tactical aspect actually gets quite repetitive and only the quick reactions count. So this is all that experienced players really play for, if they want to win (which they do). fy_ maps may be good for training reactions.

I suppose that there's still a possible layout left that would force players to learn new tactics. But it's probably very difficult. With good reactions you don't really need to use tactics to win.

Sorry for being so pessimistic. If you spend some time on the Snarkpit you get very direct. Don't let that get you down image


Why snark works.



Quote
 Re: fy_trailertrash_beta
Posted by Junkyard God on Wed Mar 21st at 11:29am 2007

The tactical side of maps might get repetitive, but msot of todays cs players, don't even know the map train, or havana.

But I guess this map fairs not bad ofr an fy map due to the fact that it's not just a box with some random props spread around. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


Hell, is an half-filled auditorium



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 Re: fy_trailertrash_beta
Posted by Naklajat on Wed Mar 21st at 12:53pm 2007

Classic CS is less about being able to aim and more about knowing where to stand and when to move. A bunch of noobs with good communication and a plan can beat a team of pubgod uberaimers who don't communicate.

@Bender
  • The same grass texture across all the terrain makes it look flat and lifeless, use a blend texture and alpha painting. It's pretty straightforward and easy, and it improves the visual quality by a lot.
  • The straight-down relatively dim white sunlight is boring, put a little yellow/orange-yellow in the sunlight (and gray-blue in the ambient), and put the brightness around 500-600 (100-200 for the ambient).
  • Add just a little bit of a tilt to the light_environment. The sun is only straight down two days out of the year, and only in the tropics. PLUS source generally looks ugly with a straight-down light_environment.
  • After adding some tilt, consider placing a few trees, they cast nice shadows, and shadows are something this map is starved for.
  • If you've got a 3D skybox, it's really hard to tell. Add some trees and man-made stuff to it, or make one if you haven't.

    It looks better than most fy_ maps, but it still lacks a lot visually.

    -Snickers


    • =o



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     Re: fy_trailertrash_beta
    Posted by Orpheus on Sat Mar 24th at 1:13am 2007

    I do believe that this is the most comments I have seen in a long time with regards to such a basic map layout/design.

    Its rather refreshing.





    The best things in life, aren't things.



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     Re: fy_trailertrash_beta
    Posted by Kasperg_JM on Sat Mar 24th at 4:18am 2007

    It's true.
    I thought that even if it's simple and doesn't look too good at this point, the idea has a lot of potential. HL2 and CS:S are full of props made exactly for this type of setting.
    What I still don't understand is why some mappers show more care in making the 3D credit letters and decorating the screenshots than on making the map itself pretty. A good looking map advertises itself with just a couple of screenshots.




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     Re: fy_trailertrash_beta
    Posted by Junkyard God on Sat Mar 24th at 9:16am 2007

    Might be nice to try and clip/vertex some dents into the trailer walls and such.
    Because now it looks very dirty and sloppy, but yet very neat and sturdy at the same time.

    I think a trailer like that could do with some denting. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


    Hell, is an half-filled auditorium



    Quote
     Re: fy_trailertrash_beta
    Posted by reaper47 on Sat Mar 24th at 2:52pm 2007

    Well, dents would be decoration too... image

    I think this is and will always stay a fy_ map and you can't magically turn it into anything more complex. You could put in more stuff, but no matter how many props and details there are, they'll always look like they are staged in a square arena (because they are). So... I don't know. I think the main message of this thread is that the Snarkpit isn't a big fan of fy_ maps :/


    Why snark works.



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     Re: fy_trailertrash_beta
    Posted by Junkyard God on Sat Mar 24th at 3:17pm 2007

    I don't think most level design communities are a big fan of fy_ maps.
    But you could turn the 'theme' of the map into something nice by revising the layout drastically.


    Hell, is an half-filled auditorium



    Quote
     Re: fy_trailertrash_beta
    Posted by Orpheus on Sat Mar 24th at 8:09pm 2007

    For my part, if they would remove the concept of "Frag Yard" and put it back to Killbox, it wouldn't be so bad.

    To alter the name, just to be more politically correct is poor sportsmanship.

    What I cannot understand is, almost anyone can make an arena map. And they are accepted. Why not add just 10 walls or so and make a killbox an arena?

    Anyway, this map got some good advice. AND it was pretty much unbiased.





    The best things in life, aren't things.



    Quote
     Re: fy_trailertrash_beta
    Posted by Forceflow on Fri Mar 30th at 12:33am 2007

    This has potential, but you need to work on the lighting. It's not fullbright already, but it hasn't got any soul.


    :: Forceflow.be :: Nuclear Dawn developer




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