tf_to_be_decided
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Re: tf_to_be_decided
Posted by fishy on Mon Nov 26th at 12:02am 2007


I spent most of today copying over and retexturing the blue base to red. Some entities needed their I/O stuff moved over too, but for the most part it's done, and I now have two bases. The middle of the map is really only placeholding atm.

There are no flag or capture areas. That means the map isn't ready for any competitive playtest yet, but I'd be interested to hear about framerates. The fx5900 card that I have is forced to run under dx8, and is traeted like a 'special' child by the Ep2 engine, so I don't know if my average 60fps is a decent indication of what other people will get.

6mb download from here.




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Re: tf_to_be_decided
Posted by RedWood on Mon Nov 26th at 12:48am 2007


This is already looks better than any of the custom map i have played thus far on TF2.


Reality has become a commodity.



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Re: tf_to_be_decided
Posted by mazemaster on Mon Nov 26th at 7:18pm 2007


I am only judging by the screenshots (dont have TF2 )-: ), but from them i would say that the map looks very crisp, very clean, well-produced, with wide open space for gameplay flow. Here are my crits so far:

The textures are super bland and flat, making the spots of flair you have added (support beams, window frames, signs, light fixtures, etc) look out of place. Like they just appeared out of nowhere, rather than naturally being part of the map. The lighting is also very flat, adding to this. I think that I can see the underlying style you are going for - big open clean industrial spaces. Some great maps that do this theme well and get the lighting and textures right are the tram intro sequence in HL1 and Sulsa's HL1 map Chaocity3, maybe check those for references.

I can't really comment much more without seeing more of the map, good luck.






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Re: tf_to_be_decided
Posted by reaper47 on Mon Nov 26th at 8:14pm 2007


I have great hopes for the TF2 mapping scene. The screens look very solid, even in this early stage.

What I miss from the screens is probably the red/blue color for the base walls. Maybe adding some yellowish tones to the spotlights might also give the map's visuals more atmosphere. The map's definitely in need of color.






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Re: tf_to_be_decided
Posted by fishy on Mon Nov 26th at 9:34pm 2007


Thanks for the comments. I agree that the base colour is something that's maybe a little too subtle at the moment, but I'm hoping that when I add the various navigation signs, and any other decals etc, that the problem won't be as obvious.

I'll post a few more screens after this damn migraine is past the optical stage, and I can see what I'm typing.

[Edit] No I won't. I went for a lie down, and left the map to compile the updates that I made today, but the compile settings were for vbsp only. (leakfinding settings). It's amazing what you miss when you can't see right, or in this case, it was mainly left that was affected. :/




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Re: tf_to_be_decided
Posted by fishy on Wed Nov 28th at 4:58pm 2007


Anyway, back to business.

The first 2 pics show the same view from each base, and the main textures that I've used to differentiate between the bases. The floor edges and metal bars are probably the least obvious until you compare them side by side. Examples of both can be seen from probably 80% of the map.( the bars are used for window frames too)

The floor texture used on the stairs, and the concrete used on the roof supports are a little more obvious as team colours in the red versions. I don't know if that's maybe because blue would be a more of a 'normal' colour for these surfaces. Better examples of these in the last pic.




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Re: tf_to_be_decided
Posted by reaper47 on Wed Nov 28th at 9:24pm 2007


First two pics are hard to distinguish. Generally I think knowing what base you're in should be as obvious as possible based on wall colors alone. This is extremely subtle. In TF2 they use this beautiful color-bounce effect a lot (bright white spotlights on a red textured surface dimly lighting the faces around it - mainly the ceiling - with a reddish glow). Maybe you could experiment with some central, colored and sharply lit structures? Like a spotlight facing up right across the ceiling in the third pic. Most colored parts in your map are in the shade (not hit directly by any lights).

Third screenshot looks the best so far. With the textures changing right at the brush-edges the wall supports look a bit... polygony. I know TF2 goes for stylization, but screen 3 almost looks TFC. I think it's the different colors for different brushes that makes their low-poly structure so obvious, so maybe it just needs a more fluid transition between the red and whit/concrete parts?

I definitely like the direction the map is going, though. That looks like a fun ramp-room. Many good memories coming up and yet it looks fresh.






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Re: tf_to_be_decided
Posted by Crono on Wed Nov 28th at 9:31pm 2007


These have a striking resemblance to Goldeneye. If that was already noticed, sorry, I didn't read the thread.


Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



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Re: tf_to_be_decided
Posted by reaper47 on Wed Nov 28th at 10:05pm 2007


Yea, the cavern map. Now that you mentioned it... <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">





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Re: tf_to_be_decided
Posted by Crono on Thu Nov 29th at 3:29am 2007


Fishy, you should have this playing over and over in the map.

Edit: I hate regenerating links sometimes. Here's the main page. Click on "Subterranean Caverns".



Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



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Re: tf_to_be_decided
Posted by Cassius on Fri Nov 30th at 2:22am 2007


? quote:
These have a striking resemblance to Goldeneye. If that was already noticed, sorry, I didn't read the thread.
This occured to me, too. That's not a bad thing by any means, however. At least in its current spareness -- which I trust Fishy will not leave unimproved -- it recalls the feel of an older age of mapping.

Let's talk rocks. My biggest qualm with most TF2 maps, Valve's releases included, is the terrain. In almost every level, it's flatly textured, choppily lit and colored like coffee with too much milk in it, and the rock ceiling you've shown here is no exception. Give it a texture that brings out its shape. If none are available, I'll give you some of mine.




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Re: tf_to_be_decided
Posted by Le Chief on Sat Dec 1st at 1:46am 2007


style-ised realism, I like it. I really like it.





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Re: tf_to_be_decided
Posted by Cash Car Star on Sat Dec 1st at 1:04pm 2007


I agree with mazemaster's assessment. The solid, clean brushwork will definitely appeal to TF gameplay, I wouldn't clutter things up with movable junk like an HL2DM map or immovable junk like a CS map. The hallways are clean and this is good. But otherwise, it's unremarkable.

Your team colors are very muted. I haven't played TF2, so I don't know if that's par the course, but I learned from my few CTF attempts that vibrant team colors are not to be overlooked, and standing out really is a good thing. Put some sharp color strips along the ceiling. Make the team home OBVIOUS. And get rid of that prefab cart in the shot, along with any texture that screams HL1.

The last of the three preview shots hints that there's more dynamic gameplay than we can really notice in these shots, otherwise I'd mention something for making the hallways too flat.




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Re: tf_to_be_decided
Posted by Juim on Sat Dec 1st at 3:20pm 2007


Awesome stuff Fishy. I have to agree that the tex set is partly whats keeping this map from looking as amazing as it could. Also, The great room is inspiring with its support beams amidst the rocks. I would recommend a more darkened dramatic approach to lighting this room. Upwards pointing spots to hilite the ceilings and so on. Could be a real show piece.


Quote from Nietzsche....God is dead
Quote from God....Nietzsche is dead



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Re: tf_to_be_decided
Posted by fishy on Sun Dec 2nd at 2:37am 2007


I don't think I ever played goldeneye, so that one's lost on me. The link to the .mp3 doesn't want to work either, but I guess it's some Bond music. And Bond music, when I think about it, would be perfect for a lot of tf2 maps. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Cass, your textures are too realistic for tf2. Cartoonism ftw, at least for the moment.

I've worked some on lighting. Out of the various trials there wasn't too much that impressed me. Each base is now more 'team coloured', using coloured light from the various office windows, slight tints to the overhead lights, and, as Reaper suggested, some strong spots bouncing off of coloured logos. It all looks somewhat saturated to me now, so normalizing the light a little, and retexturing, is still on the cards.

Here's a sort of walkthrough of the blue base,

image
From the stairs at one end of the base, overlooking the main entrance hall, the main door is on the right, just after the blue logo. The lower spawn room is in the recess.

image
Looking up the stairs from the same place. The final half set of stair will lead to the front battlements, still a w.i.p.

image
A good view of the upper deck from the top of the half set of stairs. The round door on the right is the predicted secondary route to the intel, but we'll come back that way later. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

image
This one is taken from the opposite end of the previous pic. The upper spawn is directly behind the pov.

image
Heading down the stairs takes us to a short corridor leading to the intel room. The square door leads back into the main entrance hall, and is the same square door that's seen in the 1st pic.

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Into the intel room. The intel itself is on the lower deck, so even though the attackers might have a slight height advantage when they enter the room, they need to make the most of it before comitting to a grab.

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Looking back down into the room from the other end.

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This corridor is still giving me the s**ts, but I'll sort it. It leads from the intel room (left) to the top deck of the stairs that we started on. image

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The only thing I like about that corridor is the window, but even that has a very iffy view.

And a couple of pics from the red base for colour comparison.

image

image

There's a door on the top deck, almost directly above the front door, which leads the an office, capzone, battlements area, but there was a hicup.




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Re: tf_to_be_decided
Posted by Gwil on Sun Dec 2nd at 2:34pm 2007


Is this a CTF map fishy? My only concern at the moment would be that it seems too much of a corridoor layout - an issue which chokes up 2fort and puts people off it. 24 man servers especially need more vistas and wide spaces in light of how medics work in TF2 as opposed to TFC.



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Re: tf_to_be_decided
Posted by reaper47 on Sun Dec 2nd at 6:16pm 2007


? quote:
It all looks somewhat saturated to me now


It seems sticking with DOD for so long has seriously affected your eye's Cone cells. image Honestly, if anything, the texturing is too little saturated still, especially for a TF2 map. I'd say base coloring could be even more obvious, it remains very subtle, especially for players who aren't familiar with both sides. Aiming for in-your-face obviousness when it comes to team colors is the way to go for TF maps, especially for texturing.

I like the lighting much more now. Pics 3, 4, 7, 9, 10, 11 have "dark spots" in them (parts between lights that are near pitch-black on darker monitors). Make sure all your lights, especially if spotlights are used, overlap and have no shadow areas between them. It might be a more subtle thing, but I always found it to turn out rather annoying if lighting isn't gapless.

As for the corridor that gives you the "s**ts": Besides getting rid of that weird, bright/grey ceiling texture, I - once again - suggest lighting as a solution. I know I bring it up almost everywhere, but it's kinda my thing...
I'd cut the row of little lamps (which don't quite fit the place) and rely on nice spotlight use again. Basically, I think the ceiling lighting is too fullbright/homogeneous. Make the ceiling darker, and throw an upwards-aiming spotlight across it from the right, to give it structure.

There might be a time when spotlights get out of fashion, but it works so well for TF2 and the game is just out for two months - so why not try the obvious first and start experiment later? image






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Re: tf_to_be_decided
Posted by fishy on Sun Dec 2nd at 6:19pm 2007


Aye, Gwil, it's CTF. What I probably should have already mentioned, is that this is aimed at lower number servers. All of the default maps suck big time when the numbers drop. Quite a lot of custom ones that I've played do too. It seems to be that when numbers drop to around 5v5, most of the remaining players on a server will decide to give up and go and look for somewhere else to play. It's impossible to tell until the map gets played, but I'm expecting 5 v 5 to be enough to keep this one moving along at a reasonable pace. Intense would probably be the wrong word to describe the play on a full 32 man server though.

As for the corridors, they are few, and needed for visblocking. I've also got my fov at max, which sort of streaches the view into the distance, and makes them everything appear a bit longer than it is.

[edit]

reaper, the todo list includes setting a min light level for the map, so that it isn't too dark between the pools of light. Some spotlights in the s**ts corridor would be better. I like the little wall lights, and I've tried to ignore the fact that they do look out of place, but I think you're right about removing them.




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Re: tf_to_be_decided
Posted by RedWood on Mon Dec 3rd at 1:41am 2007


Their appears to be a start to a tunnel at the bottom of your pit. Is it ever going to lead some ware?


Reality has become a commodity.



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Re: tf_to_be_decided
Posted by fishy on Mon Dec 3rd at 4:23am 2007


? quoting RedWood
Their appears to be a start to a tunnel at the bottom of your pit. Is it ever going to lead some ware?

It's there as an option, as are a couple of doors elsewhere. I'll need to see how the map plays first.




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