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[map] Barrel Destroyer [beta 1]
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 Re: [map] Barrel Destroyer [beta 1]
Posted by Dark Tree on Tue Nov 4th at 5:41am 2008


This is a a discussion topic for the map "Barrel Destroyer [beta 1]" by Dark Tree which can be found here

Map description:

Find and explode all 10 barrels in this beta puzzle map. Is in early beta stage, and would appreciate feedback!

Map screenshots:

Screenshots for: Barrel Destroyer [beta 1]




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 Re: [map] Barrel Destroyer [beta 1]
Posted by Le Chief on Thu Nov 6th at 9:56am 2008

I'll check it out for ya tomorrow and tell you what I think. Watch this space!


Aaron's Stuff



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 Re: [map] Barrel Destroyer [beta 1]
Posted by Dark Tree on Thu Nov 6th at 8:26pm 2008

Thanks, Aaron smiley ... any maps of yours you want critiqued, played?



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 Re: [map] Barrel Destroyer [beta 1]
Posted by Le Chief on Fri Nov 7th at 6:42am 2008

Best thing about the map: The Idea (lots of potential!!!).

Worst thing about the map: Lack of visual aid.

I thought this was a really cool idea, you certainly have lots of potential for many wonderful things for this map.

- One of the things I felt in the map was I wasn't really given any clues (except for the onscreen messages) about what to do. It kind of felt like I was just doing random things until I figured out what I had to do, and I don't know if that's the kinda direction your heading in, but at times playing through this map, I wasn't having fun, I wouldn't go so far to say that at times it was unpleasant, but certainly there where some "ok... this isn't fun, I just want to get past this little section, how do I do it!" moments.

I think one of the things that is really lacking is visual ques/hints/aid. For example, I think it would have made things far more enjoyable if next to that crow bar was a little sign with the hazard suit, or at least the hazard suit hand to hint to the player that he needs the hazard suit. And maybe a little bullseye sign on that little glass platform where I had to launch that rebounding ball thing to destroy the stack of barrels. Certainly that puzzle where you had to activate the little platform and open that door and blow up the barrel to start chain reaction, I really feel like I fluked that one and I could have been there alot longer. Maybe a sign next to it with 3 barrels with arrows pointing to each other or something would have given me a clue. And the whole message onscreen saying that you failed kind of confused me, maybe you could make an autosave trigger just before the event and kill the player if the event fails or something, bringing him/her back to that spot. So certainly this map needs alot more visual clues, it would make it a much more enjoyable experience.

One other issue I had with this map was some of things where quite illogical, and in a map like this, you really need consistency that the player can relate with. For example, those three spikes where a bit strange, it would be much better if you made them actually look like buttons. And the glass with spikes, I was expecting to die or get hurt if I walked over, and that brush based statue kind of thing, he had a wooden leg! I must have spent about 45 seconds hitting it with a crowbar trying to get it to break :P, turns out it doesn't break.

But they where my only two issues, the lack of visual aids gently guiding the player and this inconstancy/illogicalness in the map. I thought that there was a certain degree of linearity (meaning there is only one pathway to go down and specific things you have to do in order) in that map which is by no means a bad thing, but there is definatly space to make it less linear and add an adventure aspect, maybe something like finding a key to open a door which contains the last chicken which when they are found, does something else, which means you can go here... which leads you to another exploding barrel!

Some other ideas:

- A huge arsed tv screen or some other way of keeping track of how many barrels the player has exploded.
- More ambient sound!
- Perhaps different music :P
- More puzzles, there are still alot of things like building a stairway out of physics objects, running across platforms and many other gameplay mechanics that you can add to this gigantic puzzle.
- Not that its important, but I felt that other than that quirky little statue, the map lacked character, its always nice to run around in an appealing environment.
- Lights need a light source!
- Try not to use the onscreen messages so often, they can be easily missed and you can't go back to em, I suggest you replace as many as you can with another means of communication (maybe the same thing as a texture on a wall so you can easily read it and go back to it).

Anyway, hope that helps, I think this map has heaps of potential, just keep working on the map, refining everything and it will be great!

Quoting Dark Tree
Thanks, Aaron smiley ... any maps of yours you want critiqued, played?


Ahh.. yeah? I am working on Night Terror at the moment if you wanna check that out smiley ? I don't want to cause a fuss or anything or make you feel obligated to play it by no means, just if your intrested smiley.

Night Terror Aaron's Stuff Page
Night Terror Snarkpit Thread


Aaron's Stuff



Quote
 Re: [map] Barrel Destroyer [beta 1]
Posted by Dark Tree on Fri Nov 7th at 10:54am 2008

Quoting aaron_da_killa
One of the things I felt in the map was I wasn't really given any clues[/quote] This is something I mean to rectify. The map is very early, but its always nice to know what direction I should go. The only real clues I give are on-screen text, which is pretty terrible, but I made this in a month just in time to submit to a competition. I plan to add, expand, and fix much of it. One of the biggest points I mean to fix is it's "purpose." Why destroy barrels? Why does a barrel exploding open a door? Etc. It DOES feel like you are doing random things.... and while that is not good, I mean to rectify that for b2.

Quoting aaron_da_killa
next to that crow bar was a little sign with the hazard suit[/quote]Right after I fix that fire that is currently an env_sprite and looks absolutely atrocious into the entity setup it SHOULD be to resemble decent looking flames in the source engine, I do need to fix that. Excellent suggestion. I want to try if possible to avoid "signs" and "onscreen text" to have a more natural feel, if I can. I do need to make it more obvious though. Good sugg.

Quoting aaron_da_killa
bullseye sign on that little glass platform[/quote]Also a good sugg. Thanks. It just goes along with the whole making 'important' areas more noticeable. Its a darker area than it should be. Will be fixed.

Quoting aaron_da_killa
that puzzle where you had to activate the little platform and open that door and blow up the barrel to start chain reaction, I really feel like I fluked that one and I could have been there a lot longer[/quote] That whole puzzle is glitchy. The text message was a last minute thing so that people knew they had to go back a little bit if they want to finish the map. That is perhaps a bigger flaw than being confused. I don't want the user to be able to accidentally save after they explode the barrels and be completely f***ed. That's just plain bad mapping. The chain reaction will be more clear cut... not necessarily EASIER, but clearer as to what to do, and a sign here might be necessary. I might photoshop some signs and add them to the map and make it a "theme". I won't want to just have one sign for one puzzle and on-screen text for another.

Quoting aaron_da_killa
maybe you could make an autosave trigger just before the event and kill the player if the event fails or something[/quote]Autosave, maybe. Kill, no. My goal is to have a naturally flowing map where death is not involved unless the player falls from dizzying heights. I actually WANTED to implement an autosave trigger somewhere, but the thing with those is, they cannot be disabled, and anywhere I would have wanted to put it would have been walked through already. I might look into a way to trigger an autosave or place it somewhere just right that the player can't get to till just before the chain reaction. I will also look into respawning barrels until the sequence is complete.

Quoting aaron_da_killa
quite illogical[/quote]I know. We have things that move up and down without being attached to anything, barrels that explode and activate something across the room, the list goes on. I mean to fix this for beta2.

Quoting aaron_da_killa
there is definatly space to make it less linear and add an adventure aspect[/quote]I hadn't thought of this, but it is possibly an idea. For right now I am focused on keeping the player from tearing his/her hair out. If I make too many things available at any one time to explore, the user can get overwhelmed. I will consider the idea of a balance for this here.

Quoting aaron_da_killa
I was expecting to die or get hurt if I walked over
You do! lol... its just very low damage. I think the damage is set to 1 HP per second. I actually thing I need to remove them As you may or may not have noticed, vvis didn't run. The error was "too many portals" or something like that... it wasn't until I released it that I found out where my problem was. It is the hundreds of spikes on top of the glass, they are causing errors even though I have them set to func_detail. They look nice, and I hate to remove them, but unless I can fix the portal issue, I will need to remove them. I need all the detail I can get in this currently bland map.

Quoting aaron_da_killa
it would be much better if you made them actually look like buttons
I will try, but I warn you, I like my spike buttons! I want to make activation terminals unique and something not so standard, but something a touch more realistic could be in order.

Quoting aaron_da_killa
that brush based statue kind of thing, he had a wooden leg
It's a pirate smiley. Kind of, anyway. His peg leg on the chest. Its rather random, and it looks.... terrible, but he was hard to create without having vertex manipulation problems. I really really need to learn how to model so I can make something other than brush-based architecture and detail. And the "treasure chest" looks liek a textured box. I need to make it look like something. Something unique. The whole map right now has "uniqueitus" being that everything doesn't look very original.

[quote=aaron_da_killa]A huge arsed tv screen or some other way of keeping track of how many barrels the player has exploded
I would LOVE to do something like this, but coming from Half-Life, I am still learning Source's abilities and need more training in Hammer. Is there a counter entity that can be associated with a visual display like you just mentioned? That would be pretty cool.

[quote=aaron_da_killa]More ambient sound! Perhaps different music
I both agree and disagree. I will probably keep the current track, but it was already my intention that as the player progresses, so does the music; Just one more thing to give the player the feeling of progress.

[quote=aaron_da_killa]More puzzles, there are still a lot of things like...
Absolutely. This map is far from done and does not yet accurately display all of my ideas. I mean to add bigger, funner puzzles, from traditional, to unique physics/dynamic puzzles that keep the player engrossed.

[quote=aaron_da_killa] Not that its important, but I felt that other than that quirky little statue, the map lacked character
I am actually harsher on this stance than you are! You are SPOT ON about this maps character. There is almost nothing that separates this map from any other amateur work in progress. It has very little character, very little to look at, and is missing all those little details you love to find in odd places you didn't think the mapper meant you to go. It doesn't feel like an industrial building, it doesn't feel like a dream, it doesn't feel like anything right now. It is definitely too vanilla, and I will need to really grind out some character if I want to make this a success.

[quote=aaron_da_killa]Lights need a light source!
BLASPHEMY! Everyone loves random floating invisible entities emitting light for no reason! Pink, greens, yellows, and reds? Perfectly normal! jk, I know I gotta add sources, but I do want a colorful environment.

[quote=aaron_da_killa] Try not to use the onscreen messages so often...
Bingo, bingo, bingo, and bango.

[quote=aaron_da_killa]Anyway, hope that helps

It greatly does. Thank you Aaron. I haven't had this good of feedback since user Captain P in 2004 when I was making Dungeon Death, my first, and only completed SP map for HL:aaatrigger:. Truly, this is exactly what I needed, and I really appreciate the time you put into your critiques. smiley



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 Re: [map] Barrel Destroyer [beta 1]
Posted by tnkqwe on Sun Nov 9th at 6:53am 2008

I don't have HL2DM,but the screenshot gives me the HL feeling.But I can see the idea-puzzle map smiley .The map would be better if it gives the Source feeling,I mean to be more realistic.I think I can make the same map in HL. smiley


Never think about bad things!
TNKqwe:The New Killer qwe

I am Engineer - Play Free Online Games

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 Re: [map] Barrel Destroyer [beta 1]
Posted by Dark Tree on Sun Nov 9th at 9:04am 2008

Quoting tnkqwe
I think I can make the same map in HL


What is in the map that cannot be created in GoldSrc:

+Physics-based puzzles involving barrels
+Dynamic lighting
+Entities parented to each other while moving
+Puzzles involving use of the alt fire on the ar2 weapon

What is in the map that CAN be created in GoldSrc:

+Architecture
+Texturing


Aside from obvious things like cubemaps and better looking fire entities, there is plenty of stuff that you physically couldn't do in GoldSrc. However, like you said, it DOES still have a GoldSrc feeling, because the architecture is not very good. I also have very limited use of models. The biggest problem visually is the lack of detail, leaving it having the blocky, bland look of an amateur GoldSrc map. This will be worked on for Beta2. Thanks for your input, tnkqwe.




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