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Render problems causing high r_speeds
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 Re: Render problems causing high r_speeds
Posted by Trucker on Sun Mar 27th at 6:27pm 2011

Hey.

Been working on this project for about 12 hours with no problems at all


When i started laying roof on the building, my r_speeds would go very high, so i deleted the roof again.

I thought it would fix it, but now at some points of the map it renders everything through the walls causing 1800+ w poly

I have taken some pictures in software mode which really showed me what brushes were the problems:

As you can see here everything is fine when i stand close to the window.
w-poly count was about 215 right here

When i take a couple of step backwards, you can see it renders lots of glass walls through the wall. (they are func_breakable)and i suspect it renders the whole map aswell here
w-poly count is over 1800 right here

So the w-poly changed like that just from walking a few steps back. It is like this at various places in the map and only a few places give good r_speeds

As said, everything worked perfectly fine at some point with the same walls etc.
Just suddenly this started to happen.

I would really appreciate some kind help here! smiley
since i basically thought about the cause the whole day without finding a fix

So i turn to you experienced mappers out there. I am sure someone has had this problem before.

Thank you
Trucker




Quote
 Re: Render problems causing high r_speeds
Posted by Orpheus on Sun Mar 27th at 7:10pm 2011

9 times out of ten the r_speed issue is because someone forgot to do a full compile. Up to a certain point fast compiles will suffice but from then on to get an accurate reading you must do a full compile.

Other causes:
  • You do not have adequate vis blocking.
  • You are using older/out moded tools.
  • You have a hole and the compile was interrupted.

    Try seeing if any of these are the issue and get back to us.
    Also, load in DEV mode and turn r_speeds on so WE can see the numbers.
    Its nice to see someone using r_drawflat. Its much more reliable imo.

    Good luck.. Welcome to Snarkpit



    • The best things in life, aren't things.



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     Re: Render problems causing high r_speeds
    Posted by Le Chief on Sun Mar 27th at 7:33pm 2011

    func_walls and other entities don't block vis, you need to keep those vis blocking brushes as world objects. Also tying multiple brushes to one entity will create a see one, see all type situation.


    Aaron's Stuff



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     Re: Render problems causing high r_speeds
    Posted by Trucker on Sun Mar 27th at 7:45pm 2011

    Cheers for the fast replies!

    @ Orpheus

    This makes sense. I do suspect the full compile thing now, as none of this map was changed from when it worked perfectly fine.

    I do not see the place to use zhlt-commands ( -full ). Are they put in the .bat file somewhere?

    Actually, I don't know if i have used fast compile so far, but with compile times of 50 seconds i believe i have?

    @ Le Chief

    I found out about the func_wall thing the hard way smiley
    At one point i tried to make every wall, that had touched the ceiling into a func_wall
    I will never do that again haha. Lucky i did it in a new "save as".

    One question on the "see one, see all"
    If i have made a glass wall section and tied it to the breakable, will duplicating the wall cause the "see one, see all (duplicates)" situation or not?




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     Re: Render problems causing high r_speeds
    Posted by tnkqwe on Sun Mar 27th at 7:53pm 2011

    The Zoner's tools (ZHLT) have to downloaded. The never come with the editor.


    Never think about bad things!
    TNKqwe:The New Killer qwe

    I am Engineer - Play Free Online Games

    Citizen Arms



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     Re: Render problems causing high r_speeds
    Posted by Trucker on Sun Mar 27th at 7:57pm 2011

    Yeah i got ZHLT,
    Just need pointers of where to put all http://zhlt.info/command-reference.html these when compiling



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     Re: Render problems causing high r_speeds
    Posted by Orpheus on Mon Mar 28th at 2:20am 2011

    I have not mapped for HL1 in forever but this tutorial still applies. Use it and all your compile woes should disappear. There are a shitload of ways to compile but this one is error proof. Use it at least till you get more confident.



    The best things in life, aren't things.



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     Re: Render problems causing high r_speeds
    Posted by Trucker on Mon Mar 28th at 7:52am 2011

    So you would suggest to use this HLCC compiler instead of batchcompiling?

    and Cheers for the answer, i will make sure to try it as a fix!



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     Re: Render problems causing high r_speeds
    Posted by Orpheus on Mon Mar 28th at 10:43am 2011

    No I do not suggest it so much as it is a course to try. I used HLCC. I preferred a batch compiler. That said, HLCC will generate a great Bat for you upon request.

    The only reason I suggest it is because it can show you many settings for different bat files... AND its a great first stepping stone for learning how to compile.

    That said.. Hammer compiles decently. There was a time people used bat file compilers to save ram. These days, ram is much less an issue. You might try that route.

    Also, exporting to map is a great way to find errors. Not that this is you problem, but its always good to remember.



    The best things in life, aren't things.



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     Re: Render problems causing high r_speeds
    Posted by Trucker on Mon Mar 28th at 1:27pm 2011

    Okay.

    So i tried the HLCC

    Is it supposed to compile when clicking the blue button? because mine didnt, so i used it to generate a .bat file and used it through Zhlt

    This looked different from the old compile and took twice the time.

    Ingame i still had the same problems though smiley

    Is it because i made a mistake in the HLCC or is my map doomed?



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     Re: Render problems causing high r_speeds
    Posted by Orpheus on Mon Mar 28th at 2:56pm 2011

    Few maps are doomed. All you'd have to do is look at a Doc Rock map and you'd know that anything is releasable.

    Seriously though, we have a shitload of tutorials on optimizing maps. Try some of them. Without actually seeing the map I cannot determine the areas that need addressed. It sounds to me like a minor vis blocking situation. Especially if you have received no error messages.

    HLCC is very old. It might not work well BUT it will only compile .map files. NOT .rmf's You need to export to map before using it.

    You might try zipping your bsp and seeing if someone will look at it for you.



    The best things in life, aren't things.



    Quote
     Re: Render problems causing high r_speeds
    Posted by Trucker on Mon Mar 28th at 6:52pm 2011

    Yeah.

    The problem is though, that it wasn't always like this.

    At unchanged areas this error occurs, and i had done nothing to optimize it before.

    That is why i suspect an invisible error somewhere, which i am simply not skilled enough to solve.

    http://www.2shared.com/file/cPaEJsLO/trucker_map_problem.html
    ^^ i have zipped it as you suggested containing the .rmf , the .rmx , the .map
    And a compile log from last compile
    I would really appreciate if someone skilled could look at this, while i try any last desperate attempt to solve it myself. smiley

    It would really make my day and i would be very ashamed to put all this hard work to waste

    Thanks for the replies
    Trucker




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     Re: Render problems causing high r_speeds
    Posted by Orpheus on Mon Mar 28th at 7:24pm 2011

    Give'm time. Someone may step up to the plate. I imagine its something real simple. If no one gets to it by the time I get home, I'll give'r a looksee.



    The best things in life, aren't things.



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     Re: Render problems causing high r_speeds
    Posted by Trucker on Mon Mar 28th at 7:33pm 2011

    Yeah. it's probably very simple for the mappers used to it smiley

    Sounds great to have you look at it if no one does smiley
    My guess is you are out Trucking?



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     Re: Render problems causing high r_speeds
    Posted by Orpheus on Mon Mar 28th at 7:35pm 2011

    Just left Edison New Jersey. Right now I'm in West Chester Pennsylvania. I will be heading for Fort Worth Texas soon.



    The best things in life, aren't things.



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     Re: Render problems causing high r_speeds
    Posted by Le Chief on Mon Mar 28th at 7:41pm 2011

    I don't think the -full parametre will help much, worth a try though.

    If you're getting geometry that shouldn't be rendered it means that/those vis leafs are visible to the engine for whatever reason such as: leak, poor map design, small gap in the geometry, converting a vis-blocking brush to an entity etc.

    Quoting "Trucker"
    One question on the "see one, see all"
    If i have made a glass wall section and tied it to the breakable, will duplicating the wall cause the "see one, see all (duplicates)" situation or not?


    No thank god otherwise hold shift + drag to clone would be basically redundant smiley Every brush within the same entity instance will be rendered if at least one member can be seen so only tie multiple brushes to the same entity if theyre next to eachother


    Aaron's Stuff



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     Re: Render problems causing high r_speeds
    Posted by Trucker on Mon Mar 28th at 9:08pm 2011

    @ Orpheus
    Sounds great, i don't know much about the states though, as i am from Denmark myself smiley

    @ Chief
    What really tricks my mind is about the "poor map design"
    At one point, it had no problems at all. Now i got these problems with the exact same design as before.

    Really a maze this one s:
    well, atleast i got the glass duplicate worry out of concern now



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     Re: Render problems causing high r_speeds
    Posted by Orpheus on Tue Mar 29th at 12:05am 2011

    There are two oddities that no one has ever given a satisfactory answer IMO.

  • There is some threshold where maps change from "NO PROBLEMS" to "PROBLEMS"
    No one has ever said at what point this occurs but every map does it.

  • There are certain problems that are caused by absolutely nothing, and even sometimes go away without altering a damned thing.

    These two things happen with startling regularity. If you do continue mapping you will invariably come across both many times.



    • The best things in life, aren't things.



    Quote
     Re: Render problems causing high r_speeds
    Posted by Trucker on Tue Mar 29th at 9:05am 2011

    Yeah. I see that problems can occur from out of nowhere.

    Also the problem is without a doubt that it renders the map through walls, which should block VIS.

    My big problem is, i have no idea now what can cause it smiley



    Quote
     Re: Render problems causing high r_speeds
    Posted by Orpheus on Tue Mar 29th at 11:36am 2011

    Somewhere here at Snarkpit there is a diagram of how the HL1 engine draws. It cannot draw through vis blocks but it can draw over and under vis blocking. So, if you are way back in a corner of some area and in a straight line you have vis blocking BUT the engine can see over the top, the wall is doing you absolutely no good.

    In other words, the engine can see bounced... IE, over the wall reflected off the sky, into the next area.

    This may not be your problem, but it could be. Areas need to be independently sealed with vis block. If it is possible for you to go over the top of the wall into the next area, so the engine can.



    The best things in life, aren't things.




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