hammer is stupid
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Re: hammer is stupid
Posted by fishy on Wed Nov 5th at 10:04pm 2003


i decided it was about time to start the attempt at reducing r's on the map i've been working on. some sky and some hint brushes helped a bit, but when i tried turning some rocks into a func_wall, hammer decided that they were somewhere else. when i ran the compile, it stopped, telling me that there was a leak starting at a func_wall @ 0,100,4. it's the '4' bit that's odd. none of the map is above -300.

covering the area with a sky brush seems to have solved it for now (compiling atm), but i'm not too happy with that. seems a bit 'chewing gum and sticky tape' ish.

i've seen stuff like this happen before with func_water, but never with a func_wall. just wondered if anyone else has.





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Re: hammer is stupid
Posted by Adam Hawkins on Wed Nov 5th at 11:26pm 2003


Any of these rocks that you 'func_walled' on the edge of your map? An entity-based brush will not seal the level like a normal brush does, making a leak. Try changing the rocks back to world brushes and see if that sorts your problem... [addsig]



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Re: hammer is stupid
Posted by Dr Brasso on Thu Nov 6th at 12:54am 2003


also make sure that if and when you DO remove some of the pesky func rocks, that you do a check for problems, and delete the leftover enties....they seem to stay some times after you chop em up etc....just a thought....i found out the hard way...

and at the risk of a flamewar, i dont think its hammer thats causing yer problem there man....

:Doc Brass...

[addsig]




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Re: hammer is stupid
Posted by fishy on Thu Nov 6th at 6:11am 2003


no adam, i knew about that one. ,)

i suppose its easier to see what i meant from the pic.

like i said, extending the sky over where hammer thinks the rocks are has sorted it for now.





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Re: hammer is stupid
Posted by Reign on Thu Nov 6th at 7:42am 2003


hehe thats funny..

hammer IS stupid..

reign





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Re: hammer is stupid
Posted by Gollum on Thu Nov 6th at 9:35am 2003


Doc Brasso has got a good point: sometimes this error can be caused by empty solid entities. Check for problems if you haven't already; any occurences of "solid entity is empty" will need to be deleted manually (Hammer can't fix this itself). [addsig]



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Re: hammer is stupid
Posted by mazemaster on Thu Nov 6th at 10:17am 2003


Brush based entities (excluding certain rotating ones) will not cause a leak if they are outside the world. They can only "cause" a leak if you intended them to seal your level, which they can't do.





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Re: hammer is stupid
Posted by ReNo on Thu Nov 6th at 12:12pm 2003


From the looks of your drawing it says the rocks are at the origin, which certainly suggests to me that the problem is the one Brasso and Gollum pointed to. [addsig]



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Re: hammer is stupid
Posted by Gollum on Thu Nov 6th at 1:14pm 2003


Keen are the eyes of the elves! I hadn't noticed that, but it makes sense.

[addsig]




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Re: hammer is stupid
Posted by Dr Brasso on Thu Nov 6th at 2:34pm 2003


ahhh.....elven goodness...../me reaches for box of Keeblers crackers....mmmmm

fishy, please post the results of your quest so it can be added to the data base ergo, the snarkpit "fountain of knowledge"....

Doc Brass...

[addsig]




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Re: hammer is stupid
Posted by fishy on Thu Nov 6th at 9:02pm 2003


still no definative answer.

i check for errors regularly. there is no instance of any empty entities (something i've not seen for a very long time, btw), or any other errors. anyway, that would put the entity at 0,0,0 (the grid origin) and not 0,100,4

here's another pick. i used edit>select all, to highlight everything, instead of the select tool. this would highlight even empty solids, but as you can see, there is nothing highlighted at the co-ords stated. the entire level is well below that area.

the evil carve tool has never been out of it's box, so i can't point the finger at it. all of my rockwork is done by adding edges to simple blocks, and moving the vertex points, so it's not like i've clipped a brush and ended up with floating points either. this is one of the reasons i use alt+p regularly. to make sure i've not made an invalid shapes.

this is definately more akin to func_water drowning you in parts of a level where it doesn't exist. some of you (if not most) will have seen it at some time. seems to happen when func_water is either a complex shape, or is next to one. when it happens though, there wont be any leak created if it extends into the void, as func_water can exist there anyway.

this makes me wonder how many times this has been the cause for the threads that go something like, 'whats wit dis f00kin leak s**t - my maps is teh perphakt'.

the answer would probably be none, but i wonder about some strange stuff at times.

.........................................................

wow, another strange thing just happened.

in preparation to offer up my bsp to thomas, i retextured the whole map (other than sky and hint) with a generic hl texture, so that he wouldn't have to dl the wads for it too. i lowered the top of the sky back down to below the co-ords to expose my phantom func_wall to the void again, and ran the compile proccess to confirm the leak was still happening. it was. but the other strange thing was in the log. i had exceded max clipnodes. seems very odd that retexturing something would increase the clipnodes. other than maybe free-standing water, which i dont use much of at all.





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Re: hammer is stupid
Posted by KungFuSquirrel on Thu Nov 6th at 10:13pm 2003


This is a shot in the dark, but worth mentioning... Have you accidentally hidden any objects at any point that might be in an invisible VisGroup? Maybe you had some brushwork up in that location, hid it, and then moved the rest of the map?

I'm sure this probably isn't the case, but if you haven't checked yet you might just want to be sure. I know I've made plenty of silly mistakes like that. *shrug*

Don't hate me for mentioning this, but I can't count how often I've been stumped on something only to find it was just a weird little mistake. I'll go hide in the corner now. [addsig]




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Re: hammer is stupid
Posted by mazemaster on Thu Nov 6th at 10:55pm 2003


So hold up a second, from the diagram it looks like you put the rocks outside the level but they are appearing inside the level in-game, but from your explanation of the problem (in words), it seems like just the opposite problem is happening.

1: where did you put the rocks?

2: where does hammer show them to be (if not the same as 1, please explain)?

3: where do the rocks show up in the game?





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Re: hammer is stupid
Posted by fishy on Thu Nov 6th at 10:55pm 2003


? posted by KungFuSquirrel
Don't hate me for mentioning this, but I can't count how often I've been stumped on something only to find it was just a weird little mistake. I'll go hide in the corner now.

oh my, do i come over that serious? i'd better use more smilies and stuff. hate is bad. very self destructive. so no, i wont hate you. i might throw things at you or kick your dog or somesuch, only just as stress relief you see, never as hate.

i'm gonna bump the thread in the maps forum with a link for the compiled map, but if anyone wants to have a look at the rmf to verify/disprove/whatever this strangeness, i'd be happy to zip it up for them. (reputable enquiries only please )





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Re: hammer is stupid
Posted by Dr Brasso on Fri Nov 7th at 12:14am 2003


dont know if im considered "reputable", but i'd be glad to take a look at the rmf and see what i can decipher....send it to my aol addy, itll handle the size limitations just fine....pm me if you decide to so i'll watch for it.....

bugmanrox@aol.com

Doc Brass...

[addsig]




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Re: hammer is stupid
Posted by KungFuSquirrel on Fri Nov 7th at 1:01am 2003


Hehe, well, it was worth a shot. you never know. [addsig]



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Re: hammer is stupid
Posted by Dr Brasso on Fri Nov 7th at 7:15am 2003


ok fishman....a few things ive found right off the bat....would you care to discuss them here, since it is an editing forum, or would you like to get on icq or aim or something first?....yer call.....

i havent done a full compile yet, because of the clipnodes factor....i have since removed them/turned it off and am going to compile it overnight....ill let you know what happens....other than that, its pretty decent architecture, although the one texture covering everthing makes it kinda hard to appreciate....

lemme know....

Doc Brass...

[addsig]




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Re: hammer is stupid
Posted by fishy on Fri Nov 7th at 11:18am 2003


? posted by mazemaster

1: where did you put the rocks?

2: where does hammer show them to be (if not the same as 1, please explain)?

3: where do the rocks show up in the game?

1. inside the level

2. shows them where i put them

3 show up in the correct place in game

its only when i try to compile that hammer says there is a leak, originating outside the level.

Doc, fire away. you should only need to run a bsp compile for the error to show itself.





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Re: hammer is stupid
Posted by mazemaster on Fri Nov 7th at 2:45pm 2003


Then what does it have to do with the rocks? I think its time for a full compilelog.





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Re: hammer is stupid
Posted by Dr Brasso on Fri Nov 7th at 4:03pm 2003


alrighty then...installment no. 1....

this is one i havent run across.....hint brushes all over the place....not that thats a bad thing, i just dont think that they are used in a very efficient manner.....and, im not real sure yet (still researching), but a few were hanging outside the "box" into the space outside the map.....im not sure what effect this has yet, but im still working the problem....when you use hint brushes, placement is fairly crucial, but im sure you knew that....

if anyone has some definative knowledge on this, please speak up, because this is one helluva search.... Gollum?...where are ya???....

and, many many brushes intersecting/overlapping...in a basic mathematical "world", which is what this is, everytime you lap or intersect them, it is compounding your compile times, and increasing your faces by a factor of at least 4....which in my mind kind of counteracts the effects of func_walls....now, this is just theory, but im thinking at this point that this is why you are reaching your clipnodes max....im asking for your permission to do some actual editing on your rmf....just to test my theory....btw, i compiled with -noclipnodes, and it basicly froze at about 62%.....over a nine hour period....

i will tell you, i like the layout, but i think you need to be a bit more careful in your brush placement.....be a little "cleaner" in your placement....may sound harsh, but that is not my intent.....

......to be continued....

Doc Brass...

[addsig]





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