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/me picks up crayons
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 Re: /me picks up crayons
Posted by Sim on Sat Jan 24th at 7:01pm 2004

This is a picture I've entered for the BakaNeko contest. The contest itself hasn't picked up many people this month, but I had fun drawing the picture. Anyway, I'm posting because I'd like some criticism, seeing as there are some good artists here. There are some things I don't like about the picture like the window reflections and some other small things I can't quite put my finger on. I would however be grateful if you could pick me up on a few problems and help me fix them, or at least bear them in mind for future projects. I made this picture from a scanned sketch, and then redid the lineart and CGed it in NeoPaint. NP doesn't have layers, which is a big problem, and I'll probably learn PSP before I start any more CGs.

The larger version (264k) is here:
http://www.benfold.com/sim/ahead-time_hi.jpg
You have to click the enlarge button on the picture to get the right size, otherwise it will look all jagged.

Thanks in advance.

[addsig]



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 Re: /me picks up crayons
Posted by matt on Sat Jan 24th at 7:29pm 2004

Nice, like the way she looks like she is desparing. Art is always fun, even if no-one appreachiates your work. (Although I'm sure you have many fans!!!) [addsig]



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 Re: /me picks up crayons
Posted by Gollum on Sat Jan 24th at 7:37pm 2004

I rather like it - simple and effective With regard to the reflections, you could try diagonal stripes instead of random squiggles.

BTW, "BakaNeko" means "Stupid Cat" in Japanese





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 Re: /me picks up crayons
Posted by Sim on Sat Jan 24th at 7:42pm 2004

It did try for some time to get the window reflections to look right, and I tried diagonal stripes too, but it seemed a bit unnatural. I was aiming for a more light-hits-water sort of reflection but it didn't seem to turn out very well.

The site does feature a sort of human/cat person sort of mascot. I didn't know you knew Japanese.

[addsig]



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 Re: /me picks up crayons
Posted by Forceflow on Sat Jan 24th at 7:47pm 2004

Looks great.



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 Re: /me picks up crayons
Posted by Gollum on Sat Jan 24th at 8:04pm 2004

I don't really know Japanese - I just lived in Japan when I was younger, and picked up a few things. I've forgotten almost all of my (non-native) language skills now



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 Re: /me picks up crayons
Posted by Orpheus on Sat Jan 24th at 8:17pm 2004

If only, i could make maps like you draw

*sighs*

the building in the back, stinks of a great map theme

? posted by Sim

[addsig]



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 Re: /me picks up crayons
Posted by matt on Sat Jan 24th at 8:27pm 2004

Nevermind, Orpheus, we can't all be good at the same thing. Think how boring the world would be, eh? [addsig]



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 Re: /me picks up crayons
Posted by Crono on Sat Jan 24th at 8:34pm 2004

If you're going to get into drawing stuff then scanning it in. I would suggest goin' down to an art store (yes it does have to be an art store, or a craft store, maybe) and grab a couple of colored pencils, the name of the color is "non-photo blue". they're great. The shade of blue they are don't show up on a scanner, when scanning in under line-art.

I've personally found that using line-art doesn't work very well (at least not for me). I usually scan in greyscale and tweak everything with levels and what-not (yeah, you really need Photoshop for these parts).

For constructive critisicm on the picture, maybe if you filled in the 'reflections' a little they would look better. Because they do kind of look like water reflections, but they are too rough. Water is very flowing and smooth, and it refracts light in the same way.
So try filling them in a little, or make more defined areas, Also around the edge of the reflections make it one solid flowing line (same color of course) just so you can get rid of the rough look (of the reflections anyway).

also. Maybe you should study some wings and facial placement or draw on larger paper (Larger paper = more detail = looks better when sized down, think comic books)

The archetecture for the buildings is pretty nice. You should try messing with the vanishing points a little more though, it always gives a better effect. Because of the buildings (and lighting/shading) the figure there doesn't seem to 'fit'. if you're trying to convey an emotion (Like being overwhelmed) make the surroundings represent that. There are actually rules to drawing anime (imagine that lol) but most people come up with their own style. There are some tutorials out there on techniqes that people already use to accomplish what has already been done. Other then that. . . .looks pretty cool......try working on the lines though. . . they're too hard (no pixel fading) so the edges look jagged. Photoshop would really help with that though, also it's not hard to learn by any means, its like any other graphics program. If you really want to get into artsy drawings on the computer, check out painter, it simulates like every art tool every created, even water (against paper). [addsig]



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 Re: /me picks up crayons
Posted by matt on Sat Jan 24th at 8:43pm 2004

Whats its cl_skyname???!!! [addsig]



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 Re: /me picks up crayons
Posted by Sim on Sat Jan 24th at 9:29pm 2004

matt: it doen't use a HL sky, I made it myself on the top part of a new image and then placed the picture on top. The sky is meant to look like that of Ganymeade (moon of Jupiter).

crono: some useful tips there. I have seen some tutorials on drawing wings, however I found them quite late into colouring the picture, and I felt that it would be both difficult to draw them for the first time on pc, and I was also very near the deadline as it was that I felt some things couldn't be changed. I may touch up the picture a bit now that I have unlimited time, but I probably won't be changing the wings.

I've heard of non-photo blue before, I'll have to keep an eye out for that somewhere. My inking skills are a bit shaky though and I didn't trust myself (only messed about with inking pens so far) on the picture. So I just scanned in some reasonable rough pencil, went over it on PC with a blue colour, then changed the picture to 2 colours (blue and white), then changed the blue to back and the palette back to 16 million. I have tried scanning a pencilled sketch and then fixing it in NP and it took me hours, probably because of the limited tools. With an inked sketch there is still a lot of ugliness in the black and my method took very little time. Still, if the picture is really complex I'd probably try the PS method instead.

I'm not quite sure what vanishing points are. This picture was quite a step into the unknown, being my first attempt at perspective, serious CG and complex architecture. If you could explain vanishing points, I'd be grateful. I also wasn't quite sure about what you meant by 'fitting' and making the surroundings represent the emotion. I'm not sure if it's relevant, but the picture is meant to be about a girl who is sent forward 500 years into the future via time machine, and that she is just taking in her surroundings.

I was kind of hoping that downsizing the picture would help smooth out the lineart a bit. Would you recommend me using a low 'blur' for the picture to make the lineart smoother.

A huge thanks though for the input, it's much appreciated

[addsig]



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 Re: /me picks up crayons
Posted by Yak_Fighter on Sat Jan 24th at 10:22pm 2004

A vanishing point is a spot on the horizon where all the horizontal lines will meet way in the distance.

The best way to explain it is to draw it, but I don't have a working scanner, so I can't. I will try to explain it though.

Try to draw a simple three dimensional cube. The lines that go up and down are obviously the vertical, and in a simple two vanishing point picture they will always remain directly vertical. The lines that make up the top and bottom of the cube are horizontal lines (if you were looking from a 2d side view of the cube, think WorldCraft if that helps) Now, this time draw a horizon beforehand and make a dot where you want your vanishing points to be. Break out a ruler and draw two lines from one point outward, one that is below the horizon and one that is above. Do the same for the other point, trying to get the lines above the horizon to intersect at the same position on the x axis the bottom two do. Then draw a vertical line between those two intersections, and draw a vertical line on each side of that one to make the edges of the cube. That cube will now be in the proper perspective.

I don't know how helpful this is, I can't explain the mechanics of drawing too well obviously.

As this relates to your drawing, due to the perspective you have chosen the tops of the upper buildings in the background will not be parallel to the tops of the buildings closer to the person. They will be skewed more so that their corners are higher than they are and the ends behind the other buildings will be lower. Horizontal lines at eye level will be straight, so the platform the person is above should not be so angled.





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 Re: /me picks up crayons
Posted by Sim on Sat Jan 24th at 10:58pm 2004

I got some of that, but I agree that it's difficult to describe with words. Thanks for posting though. I think there's a book somewhere on perspective, I'll see if I can find it. [addsig]



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 Re: /me picks up crayons
Posted by FoX1 on Sun Jan 25th at 1:38am 2004

http://mathforum.org/sum95/math_and/perspective/perspect.html

http://www.olejarz.com/arted/perspective/

I believe these 2 sites will help explain what Perspective is.

[addsig]



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 Re: /me picks up crayons
Posted by Crono on Sun Jan 25th at 2:51am 2004

You should try using fountain pens instead of those blah point fine tip pens.

they're the best for inking (or just drawing in normal pencil and scanning it in, darkening it with levels and fixing the lines by hand). I'd suggest (if you're serious about it) investing like 40 bucks in a small light table OR just tape your drawing up against a window during the day and trace it. that'll clean it up very nicely. as for scanning, you should ALWAYS scan at 300 resolution, in case you want to print it out later. If you want to post it online or whatever you can always copy it to a different size/resolution.

Also those sites don't talk about 2, 3, or 4 point perspective.

Here's some examples (Except 4 point, you need a compass to do that).

(Red is hoizon line, blue are vanishing point lines, black is the object, and the vanishing points are yellow)

1 Point

2 Point

3 Point

Hopefully those help you out, I realize they're not the greatest size, but they should give you an idea. Start looking at some comics and stuff like that with buildings and you'll see what I'm talking about, you could even (if you had a light table) trace over it with another sheet and find the vanishing points. It works for everything in certain distances (not so much close up).

The practice actually makes certain things looks weird. Like when you get close to the vanishing points, so you should plan them outside the viewable image space (Draw on paper bigger then the intended drawing or tape sheets on the back or something).

Anyway, my only other suggestions would to read up on some anatomy, it always helps.


[EDIT] I forgot to mention, in three point perspective you can put the third point below your horizon line. It'll give the effect that you're above the object. [/EDIT] [addsig]



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 Re: /me picks up crayons
Posted by Sim on Sun Jan 25th at 10:53am 2004

Thanks Crono, that really helped. I'll see if I can use that in my next drawing. I suppose the more I concentrate on perspective, the better I'll be at finding what's wrong with it. The images here have been downsized greatly. The picture was scanned at 300dpi and I worked on it at 1249x1752, then downsized it to 713x1000.
Again, thanks for the input. I've learnt a lot with this picture.

[addsig]



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 Re: /me picks up crayons
Posted by Crono on Sun Jan 25th at 10:56am 2004

Not a problem. Just ask if you're curious about anything (such as techniques, there are many for shading). [addsig]



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 Re: /me picks up crayons
Posted by Sim on Sun Jan 25th at 11:03am 2004

I've seen a whole load of sites with useful tutorials etc. but I was so rushed off my feet trying to get that picture finished that I didn't have the time to read them and try out the techniques. I think maybe I'll take a break and experiment with different styles and techniques. Of course, I'll ask here if I'm stuck, or posting another picture [addsig]



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 Re: /me picks up crayons
Posted by Crono on Sun Jan 25th at 11:11am 2004

You might find something for this, but something I found to be a pretty good practice on technique and whatnot, is to draw a ribbon on a piece of paper and shade it according to a light source you choose, preferably not one facing the viewer.

This is what I mean. Get a ruler, tape 2 pencils on the sides, make them pretty even, and draw some wavey shapes accross a large sheet of paper. make some loops and stuff too, don't twist your hand though.

Now touch it up so everything fits accordingly, and choose a shading method (I found that I enjoyed blending from doing this, also known as smudging).

Obviously you have to choose a light source as well. the cool thing about this practice is that, if you do it until its finished, pretty much, no matter what it will look good. And if will introduce some new shading techniques and methods

Give it a try, if you want. [addsig]



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 Re: /me picks up crayons
Posted by matt on Sun Jan 25th at 1:14pm 2004

twas' joking, Sim... [addsig]




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