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If there was a book on HL2 modding...
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 Re: If there was a book on HL2 modding...
Posted by TimHolt on Sat Sep 17th at 4:26pm 2005


...what would you want to see in the book?

$39.95 down at Borders or your other favorite bookstore type deal. Obviously can't show every single thing about modding of course. But what would you like to see in a book like that?





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 Re: If there was a book on HL2 modding...
Posted by Madedog on Sat Sep 17th at 4:30pm 2005

The same reply i gave to you in HL2world... there have been enough people who think they are good enough to make a book like this.



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 Re: If there was a book on HL2 modding...
Posted by TimHolt on Sat Sep 17th at 4:33pm 2005

? quote:
The same reply i gave to you in HL2world... there have been enough people who think they are good enough to make a book like this.


Except i've actually go a contract in my hand.

Personally, I've checked the shelves at bookstores for game development books for a long time, and I'm always dissapointed. For starters, most books are about coding engine things, using DirectX, etc. Seriously, how many people really can use that? How many people just want to mod their HL2 game, even if it's just making a map?

What would I like to see? For one thing, a reference section that lists all the entities. Forget searching some wiki - i want to fold over corners of pages or put postit notes on them. I'd also like to see information that lets map makers (for example) learn the basics of model making, so they know how to work with a model maker - or eve make basic models themselves. Model makers need to know a bit about materials and textures so they know what to ask for and expect, etc.

So what would you like to see in this book?




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 Re: If there was a book on HL2 modding...
Posted by Madedog on Sat Sep 17th at 7:38pm 2005

First of all you've got to tell people that modding is not exactly just making couple of empty boxes, writing a new name and leaving everything else exactly the same! Tell you what - better write a book out of Game Engine programming, something VERY easy, using OpenGL (not DirectX). We have s**tload of other materials everywhere, there are FAR too many mappers, and to tell the truth - we have far too many mods aswell... most of which are never going to succeed.

Anyway, you are going to write a chapter(!) out of mod requirements and tips and what modding is all about, if you really are serious about it. I don't have time for this, so i'll just hope you'd do great. So, yeah, what modding is all about, check the Valve wiki (and write your own...), requirements for mod (again... valve wiki, write your own + the same I said in my text above, modding is not about making two maps and 2 textures. It is about making a bunch of models, new weapons, new characters, an interesting storyline etc etc (you can use your imagination).

Extra: if you get to level design part, I believe we can help you by giving short descriptions on this and all you know, if you don't know what to write. One of the MOST important parts is optimization. You can read Zombie's optimization tutorial, consult him personally (or me... or other snarkpitters) and so on and so on. Lots of good maps are very unoptimized. Also you should include an example CD with LOTS of materials (that is to say... sources) on it. When people can actually look the completely unoptimized map, in fact - they would create their own, with the help of the book, from single room to a huge world, by the end of the book they would have a perfectly ready modification, unoptimized map, which they could then optimize WITH the book, step-by-step.

Stage 1: Inoptimized map. They will use the book's help, which things to convert into func_details etc, the book tells everything, shows those objects aswell. Skybox done. Func_detailing begun.
Stage 2: Half inoptimized map - lots of world brushes are now func_details
Stage 3: Mostly inoptimized map - all annoying world brushes are now func_details.
Stage 4: Half optimized map - placing of hint brushes has begun
Stage 5: Mostly optimized map - hint brushes are placed, occluders are being placed...
Stage 6: Completely optimized map.
(sorry for the amount of optimization, but i'm addicted :P)

Anyway, don't forget to tell them difference between clipping and carving and why you should avoid carving whenever possible.
Then, you might want to let them create VERY difficult architecture during the book, explaining everything step-by-step. You can use hints from snarkpit tutorials. Those are here for community and as long as the authors get credit for their work, everything's cool <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">
Let them learn GLView, let them know commands to check the optimization level (+showbudget, mat_wireframe etc..)

As for modelling part... have them create a model! An npc model! Texture it together! Animate it! Rig it! Weight it!
Programming: Implement new weapons, new entities, new game modes perhaps, netcode...
Texturing part: UV unwrapping, using photoshop and its free alts (GIMP, i can tell is a good one (y))
Sound - let them learn Audacity and Soundforge and other interesting tools
Faceposer - LEARN IT! It's a vital tool for Single Player maps and/or mods.

I hope these tips will help you on-the-go.



HL2 tutorials 'n' stuff: http://madedog.pri.ee
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 Re: If there was a book on HL2 modding...
Posted by Crono on Sat Sep 17th at 9:54pm 2005

Madedog, I just thought I should point out, that OGL and DX aren't the "opposites" ... you're thinking of D3D (which is part of DX). The difference is that, OGL is simply a library system used for interacting with the video card, most often for 3d representation. Direct3D is the same thing, just Microsoft's version (and Windows only). While DirectX controls, pretty much everything else input wise. There is no suite like that in regards to the OGL world, but, honestly, I wouldn't want one. I think DirectX is poorly designed. Although it is a nice idea to have everything in one place, so it's easy to use ... it's a bad idea to use garbage programming practices to bring it to life (DirectX code is disgusting. And it forces you to do things that you really don't want to do most of the time, such as using Globals ... for things that don't need to be global)

Anyway, otherwise ... I guess I'd agree, but ... the only people who really develop games with the attitude of "Multi-Platform", which is what you'd need, since you don't want any DX material, are far and in between.

For the most part, aside from the programming suites, practices, and platform, EVERYTHING else is identical in the process. Such as models and such. It just depends on what they want to do. Which, honestly, from a programmer's perspective, the only way to really know how to do that is the get a degree in the field. If you're just doing something on your own ... there's no point in building your own engine. It'd probably crash and burn, since you have no real knowledge in the area, sure you can have books, but, I gotta tell you ... most programming books are really close to being wrong. It's almost never the most efficient way to do whatever they're explaining. (For example, a lot of books explain how to use Templates early on and build all their datastructures on top of that. That's a bad idea, because templates are a very flawed concept and really never work like they're suppose to. Not to mention, they are harder to support, since you have basically program a scenario for every single way the thing could possibly be used for ... for the rest of time. Which is, as you could guess, impossible.)


Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



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 Re: If there was a book on HL2 modding...
Posted by mazemaster on Sun Sep 18th at 1:30am 2005

So, are you focusing more on the programming aspect, or the mapping, aspect, or the modeling aspect, or what?


http://maze5.net



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 Re: If there was a book on HL2 modding...
Posted by Madedog on Sun Sep 18th at 1:32am 2005

Yeah, sorry, I was meaning D3D... (DX nevertheless...)

otherwise... as crono told you, you can have the books and all but they are almost wrong... I just checked out a book which you brought out in HL2w, and on those excerpt pages... crap!



HL2 tutorials 'n' stuff: http://madedog.pri.ee
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 Re: If there was a book on HL2 modding...
Posted by wil5on on Sun Sep 18th at 1:41am 2005

The modding world changes too fast for a book to be written. I'd rather have people who know how games in general work than people who refer to a book for outdated answers to their problems.

Also, this is not an editing question.




&quot;If you talk at all during this lesson, you have detention. Do you understand?&quot;
- My yr11 Economics teacher



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 Re: If there was a book on HL2 modding...
Posted by TimHolt on Sun Sep 18th at 1:50am 2005

? quote:
So, are you focusing more on the programming aspect, or the mapping, aspect, or the modeling aspect, or what?


A bit of all. More of a general book that lets people get going on it who don't exactly know where to get started. But also hopefully a useful reference tool for experienced people. I've been mapping on HL1 and Source since... before it got released (legally) and I still end up looking up entities at times. I'd die for a book that had a list of all the ents, render types, etc.

As to books going out of date - yea I suppose they do. But with Source, I think (hope) one can use the model of HL1 a bit. Look how long HL1 was around (and still is around) as a modable engine. Long time. Yes stuff changed, but still, after 5-6 years you still could find stuff on Handy Vandal or Vlatitude or where ever that was still useful.

--- Edit ----
Legally as in legally using it before it got released, not using it before it legally got released :^)




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 Re: If there was a book on HL2 modding...
Posted by mazemaster on Sun Sep 18th at 4:07am 2005

So, is the book going to be more of a set of walkthrough's and tutorials, or a general writing on the theory of HL2 modding, or a "tips and tricks" type of book, or a reference book for looking stuff up while you are modding, or what?

I know I am asking questions and not giving answers, but I think its important that you flesh out exactly what the book is going to be about before you get into the specifics.


http://maze5.net



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 Re: If there was a book on HL2 modding...
Posted by TimHolt on Sun Sep 18th at 5:49am 2005

? quote:
So, is the book going to be more of a set of walkthrough's and tutorials, or a general writing on the theory of HL2 modding, or a "tips and tricks" type of book, or a reference book for looking stuff up while you are modding, or what?

I know I am asking questions and not giving answers, but I think its important that you flesh out exactly what the book is going to be about before you get into the specifics.


Hopefully without become too bland or generic, a bit of all is the idea.

Nothing set in stone, but the idea is to lay out a development plan for a simple mod that requires some model work, coding, mapping, etc. Then go through the process of developing that mini-mod according to the plan. Each chapter builds on the previous, and readers can go through all chapters if they want, or just stick to the code/model/map/etc. chapters (and get the stuff they don't want to do off CD or download). In other words you don't HAVE to code if you just want to model what the book suggests.

All source published with the book: C++, models, maps, textures, etc.

Several chapters interspersed with general things such as making materials, editing sounds. Also more general mod team advice such as making a team, legal suggestions (don't rip off copyright material), how to mod "cheap" if you can't buy Visual C++, 3ds MAX, etc., running a website, dealing with fans, dealing with team problems.

And also put in some useful references such as an entity guide, material vmt options, FGD format, etc. Stuff you're always looking up unless you do it all the time.

Will it have everything? No. Will it have a lot of advanced topics? No. That's hard stuff to do, and it's also the stuff of "Second Edition" if that ever happens. Will it be full of useful information for the kind of people that hang out here and write tutorials? Probably not. But that's exactly the type of person I'm trying to connect with for some advice. Exactly the kind of people that would be great to have preview things before they go off to the publisher.

So probably the basic guiding idea is to write the book I wished I would have found on the bookshelf 6 years ago when I started working on HL1 mods. And if I was just starting out now, the one I'd like to get right now. Also, the book I myself wished I had right now for handy reference.

My all time idol when it comes to books is the O'Reilly Camel (Perl) book. Still got it, still use it, and it looks well loved. It's reference, amusement, instruction, insite, and a great coaster for a beer bottle or coffee cup too :^)




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 Re: If there was a book on HL2 modding...
Posted by Jinx on Sun Sep 18th at 9:41am 2005

"Half-Life 2: Mod Maker's Source Guide : Prima Official Game Guide (Prima's Official Strategy Guides)" was on my Amazon Wish List for a long time... but never came out. I just checked back and it's 'no longer available', so maybe the project was canned...

Compared to the online resources available- tutorials, forums, custom tools, etc.- any book would probably be able to provide little more than an introduction to the basics of the dev tools. Which isn't a bad thing, really, but to truly excel you have to get online and into the communities.

Also, shouldn't this be in the General forum?



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 Re: If there was a book on HL2 modding...
Posted by Campaignjunkie on Sun Sep 18th at 9:56am 2005

I would focus a lot of the book on the design aspects of modding. Many people don't seem to have trouble finding staff or making maps / models / materials, but rather their "plan" is just insanely bloated and impossible to finish. Usually they want to make a Source version of their favorite game (Halo, Resident Evil) but that really ignores the benefits and weaknesses of modding in the first place - respectively, innovation and lack of resources. So yeah, I think that's a problem that a modding book should really address.

Mini-mod idea sounds like a good idea; some concrete examples to get beginners going. But lots of people will likely make it into their own mod though - I've seen deathmatch versions of the Worldcraft tutorial maps, for example.




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 Re: If there was a book on HL2 modding...
Posted by TimHolt on Mon Sep 19th at 10:24pm 2005

? quote:
I would focus a lot of the book on the design aspects of modding. Many people don't seem to have trouble finding staff or making maps / models / materials, but rather their "plan" is just insanely bloated and impossible to finish. Usually they want to make a Source version of their favorite game (Halo, Resident Evil) but that really ignores the benefits and weaknesses of modding in the first place - respectively, innovation and lack of resources. So yeah, I think that's a problem that a modding book should really address.

Mini-mod idea sounds like a good idea; some concrete examples to get beginners going. But lots of people will likely make it into their own mod though - I've seen deathmatch versions of the Worldcraft tutorial maps, for example.


Right - what you really need to do is open people's minds, get them going in the right direction, and of course have reasonable goals. It would be kind of amusing to include an example of a BAD mod plan - your typical "100 guns all different, 20 classes, here's my sketches I did in math class and i'm the idea guy and I just need coders, skinners, modellers, mappers - please contact me" type of plan.

I'd fully expect a mini-mod to get copied a lot. I mean sure you might get a little flood of bad clone mods as a result, but I also think if you can get someone learning to actually accomplish something, it's good. Right or wrong, if you tell someone they have to spend months doing stuff before they actually can see some results, they'll probably get frustrated.

One advantage of a mini mod that has all source and materials available: people can proceed down different tracts of learning and not have to do it all. They can learn mapping, and just download the code and/or models. Or just work on model making and use the map and codes, or just coding and use the models and maps.

People can also get their feet a little wet outside their area of interest and expertise as well. Personally, I think the more you know about how the other people on a team do their jobs, the better you can do yours on a Mod team. For example mappers that can make textures (at least mock them up) and/or models do better. Coders that understand map making a bit code better entities that work well for mappers. Model makers who map a bit know how to make maps can create better prop models. Basically people with more knowledge make better decisions, and can more easily understand the decisions of others.




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 Re: If there was a book on HL2 modding...
Posted by IronWhim on Sun Nov 6th at 8:08pm 2005

For a good start for what I'd like to see, though in a different engine, take a look at Jason Busby's "Mastering Unreal Technology: The Art of Level Design." We use it in the Game Development class at my school, and it's a good, basic reference.

I think the book should have something for everyone, with ideas of how to take core concepts to a deeper level. What I'd like to see most, as a modeler, would be stuff relating to modeling for Source. Polycount, max UV maps per model, basic model structure, and which sorts of texture maps (color, spec, etc.) can be used.

As a beginning level designer (and all of that in UT2k4), I'd want to know a bit about the physics engine as well as the core concepts of how to design a level. Most of the modelling questions apply here as well in terms of the actual construction of the level.

I'd also want to know about dialogue scripting and character interaction for those people (like myself) who want to do a total conversion for a single player game.

Finally, I'd want to know how to completely change weapons around to suit whatever I'm trying to do, as well as how to work up new vehicles.

I think that covers the basics of what I'd want. Another source I just thought of would be to add a number of videos that would walk through the basic concepts (character modelling, vehicle and weapon creation, etc). If you've seen the Unreal DVD that comes with the DVD version of the game, you've got a good idea of what I'd look for.

Thanks,
B





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