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512x512 mile map
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 Re: 512x512 mile map
Posted by Masa Pain on Thu May 18th at 5:38am 2006

I'm trying to figure out a way to build a world in HL2 by stringing together multiple maps. A requirement is a seemless transition from map to map. Anyone have suggestions or ideas about this? Thanks.




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 Re: 512x512 mile map
Posted by omegaslayer on Thu May 18th at 6:03am 2006

Im not sure the actual conversions of miles to units in hammer - But immagine thats at least 5X5 = 25 maps. Which is a lot to make by most respects.

But to answer your questions you would have a level transition from one edge using trigger_mapchange (?) info_landmarks and some heavy duty 3D sky boxes, and some fog. Not a task for someone new to mapping. And you wouldn't have a "seemless" transition because you would have the loading screen. This is NOT a task for a new person to mapping to undertake.

If this is for a project of some sort then I wish you the best of luck.

Edit:
Here is a great article explaining how to change levels in HL1 (same idea though). Only think of this on a larger scale.
http://collective.valve-erc.com/index.php?go=level_transitions



Posting And You



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 Re: 512x512 mile map
Posted by Masa Pain on Thu May 18th at 6:07am 2006

Omega, thanks for the response. Yes, this is not a job for someone new. I'm not asking for myself. I'm actually doing some research. It is important that there is a seemless transition between maps. The guys at Smiling Gator figured this out so I'm hoping someone else out there would have an idea.




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 Re: 512x512 mile map
Posted by Naklajat on Thu May 18th at 7:32am 2006

You'd have to change the view scale to do that. I don't know how exactly, but I know it's possible and I know you have to make a mod to do it. It's in the game code somewhere.


=o



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 Re: 512x512 mile map
Posted by wil5on on Thu May 18th at 9:51am 2006

It would probably be an easier task to create maps with transitions, since youd have to rescale all the game content as well (unless you want giant monster headcrabs). Not to mention that you lose map detail. But if this is the course of action you want to take, its not hard, just change the players view height, movement speed and hull size (at least thats what you had to do in HL1, Source may be a bit more involved).

If you dont change the player scale, using a rough guide of 1 unit = 1 inch, a map is 32768 inches a side. Thats 0.517 miles (0.832km). So for a 512x512 mile game world, youd need nearly ten thousand maps, which is silly. With an engine like Source, it would be difficult to fill an area that large anyway, Source is more suited to small detailed areas. It would be more realistic to aim for 1-2 miles, and if youre making a complete mod, scaling the player might be the best course of action.

Perhaps you should look into how the guys at Smiling Gator did it.




"If you talk at all during this lesson, you have detention. Do you understand?"
- My yr11 Economics teacher



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 Re: 512x512 mile map
Posted by Masa Pain on Thu May 18th at 2:56pm 2006

Thanks a bunch for the responses guys. This research is for the qualification of an MMO with Source. I know, OH GAWD not another MMO. Or even better, "Everyone wants to make an MMO". But either way, I'm looking to find the solution to this. Like I said Smiling Gator figured out one way to do it. I looked at their site and it looks like they may be licensing their tweaks to the source engine since they had actually licensed the game.

Not sure how scaling would work for this in an MMO. I'm thinking it would take some custom coding and I'd imagine some kind of preloading magic with a grid positioning system. That way not all the terrain is loaded into memory but maybe only a 3x3 grid which is preloading based on what grid you move to. Maybe that is too much? Maybe just load on map and as players near one edge/corner of that map begine preloading of the adjoined map.

Any thoughts, suggestions or hypothesis?




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 Re: 512x512 mile map
Posted by omegaslayer on Thu May 18th at 6:53pm 2006

When you first post neglected to mention you want it like an MMO, so I really didn?t know how to respond. So here is a better response:

When source loads a map it loads the entire thing, unlike where WoW (or Elder Scrolls Does it) where it loads only ?sections? of maps (and hides the unloaded areas in fog), source can only go as far as the boundaries in hammer. Outside of coding I have no idea how this is done, nor if it could be done, I don?t think that it would be a great idea, as source tends to have lots of lag on a map (calculating where everyone is at a given time).

So my general thoughts would be that its not a simple task (you?d be messing with the actual engine code on how it loads polygons maps??which is a big nono), nor could it be simply fixed with mapping. So outside of lots and lots of coding (which this site really isn?t about) I don?t think its too possible.





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 Re: 512x512 mile map
Posted by Masa Pain on Thu May 18th at 7:05pm 2006

Omega, Thank you. I appreciate your feedback. I was looking to you guys, the mappers, to get a feel for what you thought. Yeah I was thinking this would be code intensive.




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 Re: 512x512 mile map
Posted by Naklajat on Thu May 18th at 8:18pm 2006

My guess about Smiling Gator's MMO is that they completely ditched the server code and started from scratch. That's a complete guess though., based on the fact that for an RPG you'd need a lot of features that aren't in the Source engine, like saved experience and items, things that you'd basically have to build from the ground up. I put some thought into a PvE Diablo-esque mod with persistant items and experience across different servers, but decided a project like that is WAY too big for a noob like me to take on. In any case, judging from how most source servers handle 24+ players, I'd say an MMO is basically not possible with the default server code.

VERY code intensive.


=o



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 Re: 512x512 mile map
Posted by Masa Pain on Thu May 18th at 9:25pm 2006

I'd agree with what you are saying. I assumed as much. I'm researching the extent of what can be done with the current code. My project already has a client and server model complete. Hypothetically, replacing the client with Source and retaining our existing server.




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 Re: 512x512 mile map
Posted by wil5on on Fri May 19th at 12:06pm 2006

I doubt an MMO would work in Source without a major overhaul of much of the game code. As the Baron has pointed out, the netcode can't handle anywhere near an MMO number of players, but also the map loading system (and possibly world rendering) would have to be changed, physics would probably have to be scaled down considerably (the netcode is slow for a reason)... if someone has got a working MMO which uses Source, theyve put a huge amount of effort into it.


"If you talk at all during this lesson, you have detention. Do you understand?"
- My yr11 Economics teacher




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