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Hinting very specific corridor
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 Re: Hinting very specific corridor
Posted by Flynn on Fri Jan 12th at 7:00pm 2007

I would like to know is it possible, if at all to hint this section of corridor I made. I made it specifically to test these kind of scenarios so it doesn't matter if it can't be done. However I would like to know if and why it can't be done.


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 Re: Hinting very specific corridor
Posted by Crono on Fri Jan 12th at 8:07pm 2007

Take a screen shot top down (I assume your corridor changes horizontally)


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 Re: Hinting very specific corridor
Posted by Flynn on Fri Jan 12th at 9:42pm 2007

Well I assume you meant in Half-Life 2. Here is the corridor:

Top:

image

Inside:

image

Insider number 2:

image




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 Re: Hinting very specific corridor
Posted by Dark_Kilauea on Fri Jan 12th at 9:48pm 2007

One hint can be used. Place it at 45 degrees diagonally across the corner.


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 Re: Hinting very specific corridor
Posted by Flynn on Fri Jan 12th at 10:07pm 2007

Don't you think I've tried that D/L the .vmf and see what I mean for once


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 Re: Hinting very specific corridor
Posted by Crono on Fri Jan 12th at 11:11pm 2007

Well. That's how you use a hint brush on a corner. Maybe you aren't applying it correctly. A shot from hammer would show that a bit more accurately than an in-game shot.


Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



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 Re: Hinting very specific corridor
Posted by Captain P on Fri Jan 12th at 11:14pm 2007

So what makes you think a single 45 degree hint brush doesn't work here? Yes, it's a more complex situation than a standard L-shaped corridor, but theoretically, a single brush would suffice.

Oh, and next time you get mad about someone not looking at your map, upload the right one. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">


Create-ivity - a game development blog



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 Re: Hinting very specific corridor
Posted by Orpheus on Fri Jan 12th at 11:24pm 2007

Personally, I think Mister Flynn needs to stop asking for help. He hasn't been very accommodating since he's arrived. Of course this is just my opinion. Since I am regarded as rather an asshole myself, I think I'm fully qualified to recognize another one.

Flynn, for my part... Stop asking for help until you have given something back first.

I'm going to post this as an "Answer to your problem" because your problem is your an asshole.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: Hinting very specific corridor
Posted by reaper47 on Sat Jan 13th at 4:01pm 2007

You don't have to hint a corridor like this. Hint-brush placing is only a last measure of polishing, to get slightly better performance in rather unusual architecture. I can't imagine many scenarios where hinting a corridor like this would bring much performance gain.

I can see this becoming a vvis nightmare, however, because every section of the corridor will be split into multiple vis-leafs automatically (no matter if you hint it or not). Try to keep the corridor's profile a convex shape, so it fits into a single leaf. Vis-leafs have to be convex, so concave shapes have to be split into multiple convex leafs. If you don't understand this I'd recommend leaving hinting alone for now, it's really just an extra-method if there's nothing else to do.

Also downloading a VMF is a super-duper extra service for only the most desperate problems (because it takes time). Use explanatory screenshots or drawings to get answers. You'll get them quicker, also.

I also dare asking what's so a bad about a mapping newbie asking for help?


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 Re: Hinting very specific corridor
Posted by Flynn on Sat Jan 13th at 4:53pm 2007

Okay I've heeded the advice brought to me by Reaper47 about convex corridors and hopefully understood it for future reference.

Let's just say that there is alot of rendering action in each room then I would need to hint it.

Now I get that hinting must span three surfaces in general: Each side of the corridor and the corner.

It will not work if the hint brush is going through a corner or if a hint brush is not touching a corner.

So then I run into a dilema with all of the corners who like to jut out into the corridor I have no idea how to clip them.

So if hinting a corridor like this even possible?

Oh and Orpheus if you want a shootout, do it in general chat. Hang on no, that would get you the attention you wanted then wouldn't it.




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 Re: Hinting very specific corridor
Posted by Juim on Sat Jan 13th at 4:53pm 2007

There are alot of faces in that hallway, for such a simple layout. Seems kinda borked somehow. Perhaps you could remake it alittle cleaner?





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 Re: Hinting very specific corridor
Posted by Flynn on Sat Jan 13th at 5:04pm 2007

Yeah I could try that. Is there any chance it could be hinted? EDIT: Well the answer is yes, actually. It seems that the hint was working all along yet I forgot to run V.I.S. But this also confuses me because the hint brush goes through a fair few corners. And according to this tutorial which I am sure you have all come across hints do not work when they go through a corner. So if anyone could explain this to me I would be etererly greatful and actually no. That would be abit weird. Let's just leave it at "eternerly greatful".




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 Re: Hinting very specific corridor
Posted by reaper47 on Sat Jan 13th at 5:36pm 2007

I think there's something important about hinting you've missed so far: The content of one vis-leaf must be completely invisible (from any point to any point) to the other leaf for vis-leafing to make any sense. So the player will alyway see around a 90? corner a bit.

I'm not sure if your read it already but I recommend reading this (or reading it again). It's the best explanation on hinting you'll ever get:

http://www.student.ru.nl/rvanhoorn/optimization.php?chapter=hints&PHPSESSID=88381710cf39f8a5ff43c6f59a6935fb

But always remember: Usually VBSP creates vis-leafs automatically, placing the virtual "hint-brushes" automatically and doing quite well so. Placing HINT brushes yourself is an extra-work, not a necessity. Especially if you built your map in a way different areas of a map are hidden to each other nicely.

PS: If you really want to cross the line: Here's an explanation of the true core of BSP and leaf-cutting. It's the deepest you can dive into the world of BSP files without becoming a professional programmer: http://qxx.planetquake.gamespy.com/bsp/


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 Re: Hinting very specific corridor
Posted by Orpheus on Sat Jan 13th at 6:47pm 2007

? quoting Flynn
Oh and Orpheus if you want a shootout, do it in general chat. Hang on no, that would get you the attention you wanted then wouldn't it.

Bare in mind. I didn't make that answer blue.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: Hinting very specific corridor
Posted by RedWood on Sun Jan 14th at 9:02am 2007

If it were me, I would encase the whole hall in nodraw solids and make all those angles fun_details. Then place your hint. Of course this is only if the location of the hall makes it possible.



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 Re: Hinting very specific corridor
Posted by Flynn on Sun Jan 14th at 9:18am 2007

? quoting reaper47
I think there's something important about hinting you've missed so far: The content of one vis-leaf must be completely invisible (from any point to any point) to the other leaf for vis-leafing to make any sense. So the player will alyway see around a 90? corner a bit.

Alright maybe we aren't seeing quite eye to eye here but what I was trying to say was that in the .vmf (as I assume you know) the hint brushes goes through several parts of the corner. And according to the tutorial this is wrong:

? quoting Optimisation tutorial

Hint brush goes through the corner:


This causes the same as the situation in the two brushes, only much worse!




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 Re: Hinting very specific corridor
Posted by Captain P on Sun Jan 14th at 12:27pm 2007

Read carefully! It's not 'wrong'. It's just not the most optimal situation, but still better than not hinting it, in most cases of course. It'll just cause some more vis-leafs, but still achieves the same effect.

I'd encourage you to read up on binary space partitioning and to find out how the VIS process actually works on the inside: that kind of insight is more helpfull than just knowing what types of corners hint brushes will work on.

As for corridors like these, I wouldn't bother. Unless I notice performance issues, it's not worth my time, optimizing something that doesn't need optimization. "Preliminary optimization is the root of all evil" is a commong saying amongst programmers, because it makes your code much harder to maintain on the long run, so it works against you rather than for you. It's better to profile your code, to see where the actual bottlenecks are. For maps, it's the same: check where you're getting low performance and spend your time optimizing those area's, not every 100+fps corridor.


Create-ivity - a game development blog



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 Re: Hinting very specific corridor
Posted by Naklajat on Sun Jan 14th at 1:48pm 2007

You should really never make a corridor like that out of world brushes. If you make the hallway the simplest shape possible (ie, a rectangle) and make all your angled detail geometry into func_details that sit inside the rectangular hallway, your vis compile time will be much shorter and you can easily use good hints.

There's really nothing I can think of that you can do with world brushes that can't be done using simple world brushes + func_detail brushes (besides wait several hours for your map to compile, that is)

As an aside, it's my understanding that the editing forums are for asking questions, and I've never seen any rule stating "You have to answer X many questions per Y questions you ask" Every mapper ever started mapping without any knowledge of how to properly make a map. I think this is a perfectly valid question, a good one even, though it was asked poorly. Flynn, before you click 'submit' ask yourself if you've given enough information for your question to actually be answered. If you haven't, don't be surprised or offended if people can't help you.

@reaper47: I lost all my bookmarks a while back and wasn't able to find that BSP technical details page again, thanks for the link <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">


=o



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 Re: Hinting very specific corridor
Posted by Flynn on Sun Jan 14th at 2:44pm 2007

Alright, thanks ladies, I like the Baron Von Snickers advice. You are very grown up


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 Re: Hinting very specific corridor
Posted by omegaslayer on Sun Jan 14th at 8:45pm 2007

Flynn (I hate to flog a dead hoarse) Ive noticed that a lot of your questions can simply be answered by searching the internet for the answer. Here is what you were looking for in this case:
image

It simply came from the valve developer community's website:

http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Hint_brushes

Try looking there before posting here with your questions.



Posting And You




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