larchy said:
I think there was a thread everyone was arguing in and someone went back and deleted all their posts because they realised they looked foolish

Ah, yes, I remember that argument. Thanks for adding in the option larchy .

I've added the Horde option. The 30minute thing was one of these requested 'features' at the time :P I think there was a thread everyone was arguing in and someone went back and deleted all their posts because they realised they looked foolish... so people asked for an edit limit. Mods can still edit stuff though so just ask if something like that needs adding!

I was surprised on the podcast that they said they didn't like backtracking. Some of my favourite parts of Half-Life and it's expansions was revisiting somewhere once it had been all destroyed. I am not saying that when you have backtracking in your map that you have to destroy the whole room, more to the point that just make something different. Make a light flicker or put some baddies there, you know? Show them that you have acknowledged the backtrack. Even without that it is still nice to backtrack.

Yak_Fighter said:
Who the hell voted against open-ended layout? That's the fucking holy grail of design. It's just very difficult to do without a whole lot more effort on AI, UI, graphics... pretty much every aspect of an fps.

Yeah, looks like we need to get out the ban hammer and ban somebody, time to come clean anonymous person, don't make gwil go look through the database to find out who voted that one, it will only make the duration of your ban more permanent. Nuh, just kidding :P. Perhaps the person read the poll question as "what is your favorite...", I don't know. Perhaps that person can discuss why they felt that way, we want to hear.

Riven said:
I waited to respond to this until I had some time to say something. You missed one other layout that William added on the podcast and that's 'Horde -type' gameplay. You know, the kind Left 4 Dead built itself upon, and also some crappy mods for source?

Ah yeah, silly me :swear:. I can't add it to the original post because there is a new feature which doesn't allow me to edit posts 30 minutes after it has been sent.

Anyway.

Ideally, a game would use most of these combinations, including backtracking. I mean, throughout the course of the game, you would encounter linear bits, than an arena boss battle bit, than more linear, than a loop, than multiple choices which lead to linear again, than some back tracking, than a horde section where your stuck in a room battling waves on monsters before a door opens, than another loop, than some linear bits, than another multiple pathways, than a linear pathway, than an open ended task, than a loop etc, while this whole process was sprinkled with alternative paths, that would be ideal and the most fun, and I think most people would agree with that.

Haha, well it seems like you caught me Aaron :P I'll admit, I probably should have made this a topic on the Pit, I'm not sure, it just didn't cross my mind for some reason, ya know? But while we're at it, I'd love to discuss this with the members here!

I waited to respond to this until I had some time to say something. You missed one other layout that William added on the podcast and that's 'Horde -type' gameplay. You know, the kind Left 4 Dead built itself upon, and also some crappy mods for source?

So, what's the best kind of level layout? -Well a combination of them all or select few would be the best. No one wants to just run down a hallway the whole game, and no one wants to be backtracking over the entire game either. So they're all useful in their own manner when combined with others. I suspect a lot of people don't like backtracking simply because of the nature in which it alludes itself to. Like Aaron stated before, you could be crossing through the same level geometry but from a different perspective (vantage point). Kasperg brought up a very good example (as a comment on the podcast's page) about one of the most popular SP mods for Source: Minerva. How many times does Adam Foster have you backtracking in that game? -Pretty much every map. Yet, it still remains more fun than some retail SP games. Why is that? If it's main mechanic is backtracking and linear layouts, how do you justify the ever so unpopular 'backtracking' layout?

-I suppose many maps and games that DO include backtracking must not have done it very well to have given it such a bad connotation. It can still be a useful level layout tool to make the most out of your geometry! Adam Foster used it for almost every map in the series but he made sure that if you were to be returning to an area, it would either be blowing up around you, or making you walk through it from a different perspective. It never became boring.

-Now about Open-ended areas: The 'End-all Be-all' level layout type. Episode 2 is most notable for its last sequence of the game where the player has free rein to drive anywhere he wants to in order to destroy the Striders and Hunters. This became very popular in part to the open-ended layout the whole sequence was given. It just made for some good 'ol fun times. I heard (including myself) many people would load the game right before that sequence just so they could play it again, but a little differently, enabling many hours of fun to be had for all. Sure the sequence had other things going for it other than just the open-ended layout to make it so much fun, but had it not been for that, EP2 may not have been quite as satisfying as some gamers were hoping for.

So, How would you build an entire FPS game/mod based on this layout? Simply creating a mod with such a layout doesn't mean instant fun. But it does mean more work. In order to make it interesting, as an entire game and not just a sequence like EP2 had, you'd have to build a modular story, one that could be pieced together regardless of how the player decided to unfold it. For if the game were split into five (5) 'landmarks' then each landmark would signify a plot-point in the advancing story and an accomplishment in the gameplay; meaning it should become very significant every time a player unlocks a new landmark.

If each landmark became modular then they would need to be related by a common denominator/a common back story/a common setting. So, if we were to build a very small game based on this kind of layout, we could imagine five rooms all networked to one another. Meaning regardless of which room you were in, you could travel down a separate hall to any of the other rooms. Arriving at a room would mean you'd unlock a landmark, and after traveling to each room (however you'd like mind ya) you'd beat the game.

Based on that concept, you could design an entire game in which instead of small rooms, you might substitute entire cities or underground caverns, or separate space ships. Whatever the mind drives you think of. This isn't a new concept, it's been done for FPS games before, but we normally view it outside of the built game 'world'. Meaning, you normally see it as a User Interface where with the click of a button, you're going to landmark A rather than walking there yourself. In that case, you might as well be building small linear paths that could be pieced together instead of actually mapping out a network for them. I think the mod team that could pull this layout off as an entire game experience, could receive some awards. -Are there any mods that have this?

-I'll talk more later...

Who the hell voted against open-ended layout? That's the fucking holy grail of design. It's just very difficult to do without a whole lot more effort on AI, UI, graphics... pretty much every aspect of an fps.