Launchpad 14

Re: Launchpad 14 Posted by Captain P on Mon May 12th 2008 at 11:10pm

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Posted 2008-05-12 11:10pm

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Captain P

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Hello people. :smile:

After finishing up dm_mudanchee, I was in the mood for some more mapping. Since my last map took 2.5 year, and since HL2DM isn't the most fast-paced game, I thought I'd go for a small, compact and doable level. One that I can work on for some time, then some more time, and so on, and still get it done before the end of this year.

So, here's launchpad 14, a small outpost in an endless marsh. The core of the level is an aircraft elevator, with 3 circular floors around it and plenty of cover to go for. A small control tower makes for a nice, though not very safe, sniper spot.

I'm still in the gameplay testing phase, trying out different layouts and connections to see what works best. So please take a few run-throughs and tell me what you think. I'd like to have a few playtests with this soon, too, to confirm and further tweak the playability.

Anyway, for now, here's the download (1.1 MB).

And here's some screenshots:

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Re: Launchpad 14 Posted by Le Chief on Tue May 13th 2008 at 3:33am

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Posted 2008-05-13 3:33am

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Nice idea for a map. I'll give it a go a bit later today, but judging by the screenshots, it dosen't look exactly like an aircraft elevator just yet, there is too much concrete and not enough metal, wires, red lights (that sort of stuff :razz: ).

Also...

Captain P said:
endless marsh

So, does that mean that this place used to be full of water? If so, than adding something like a ship in the distance washed up on the sand might be a nice idea.

If its more of a baron wasteland, than a few dead trees would look nice.

Yeah, I'll give you more feedback when I have a run through it :wink: .

Aaron's Stuff

Re: Launchpad 14 Posted by reaper47 on Tue May 13th 2008 at 7:12pm

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Posted 2008-05-13 7:12pm

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Heh, so you too ended up doing a "small and doable" map. I guess it's the most logical style for HL2DM maps.

Maybe I'm spoiled from the awesomeness that is dmmudanchee, but I have to say, this doesn't look quite as hot as your previous map. I know, I know, it's WIP, but if it's a WIP/layout sketch, then I guess, there's something wrong with the proportions. The cylinder-shape looks a little too strict, you could break that up in a few levels with different width and a few (more) bigger, non-cylindrical parts.

I can see what you have in mind, but in it's current shape, it's still way too geometrical, too evenly structured.

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Re: Launchpad 14 Posted by Captain P on Tue May 13th 2008 at 7:22pm

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Posted 2008-05-13 7:22pm

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Captain P

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Yeah, geometry is more or less placeholder, it's the layout I'm trying to nail right now. Gameplay, 'y know. The final look will be more naturally shaped, not as surgical as this. The control tower will get a more distinct shape, the base of the tower will probably be a rock, and there's going to be clouds and perhaps some aircraft flying around.

Anyway, did you run through it and if so, what do you think about the layout? :smile:

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Re: Launchpad 14 Posted by haymaker on Tue May 13th 2008 at 10:02pm

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Posted 2008-05-13 10:02pm

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<div class="abouttext">Message submitted 3 minutes after original post:</b></div>
Had a run around, I like what you're after. Some thoughts i had:

layout seems fast and understandable, though the tower area seems too disconnected from the "bowl"

while inside the cylinder, seems a touch too symmetrical and disorienting.

I'm not a fan of fall death myself, are you thinking of denying access to the edge?

You already mentioned structural changes, I would avoid the cylinder theme if possible for performance and symmetry reasons. Pretty hard to visblock what you have here, plus you can't hide any nodraw boxes being all exposed like that. That said I like the near absence of corridors

Header too low here, and the other one like it

Climbing boxes = drag. Is this going to be an elvator or something?

A lot of layout is influenced by where you think weapons will be. Fill it up with lots of everything, throw a few nades and fastballs around, try and figure out some xbow bounces.

Re: Launchpad 14 Posted by reaper47 on Wed May 14th 2008 at 11:06am

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Posted 2008-05-14 11:06am

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I guess, the layout's very nice from a quick look. I can imagine that main area in the middle (the one with the spaceship, to serve a few nice fights.

The staircase tower is a little repetitive. I personally try not to have more than two identical stairways above each other.

About the cylinder/basic shape: I wouldn't plan the layout on geometrical shapes. I'm not saying it won't work out, I just think that a more natural or "grown out of purpose" style architecture not only looks better, I strongly believe that it would also provide some fun gameplay opportunities.

For example, the current flatness of the walls makes certain areas feel very "cut off" from others. Also the strict, cylindrical shape destroys any cover which you're trying to compensate with... crates! If you settle for freer geometry you can add cover more easily with the most fundamental brushwork-layout which is always better than plastering corridors in crates, IMO.

So, I do think that layout and geometry go hand in hand, especially in this state. I always find that a layout that gives player a sense of freer movement, also looks better in the end, since it makes you curious for more. This is what I'm missing a bit - beyond detail-focused eye-candy concerns which wouldn't make much sense for this early state.

Loosen up the strict geometry a bit, hide the cylindrical/squareish nature a bit more, and in the end, I think that would improve layout as well as looks.

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Re: Launchpad 14 Posted by Riven on Wed May 14th 2008 at 4:41pm

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Posted 2008-05-14 4:41pm

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Hmm, the game play on this map doesn't really excite me too much. I mean, I understand it's a WIP and-all, but I can't see this map being much fun to play even if it is fleshed-out. It may just be me (and I'm usually not one to make bad raps on people's maps), but even the setting doesn't intrigue me much. I don't know what to suggest either. I simply don't see this map going much anywhere in giving me reason to play it compared to any other dm map out there. I guess that's what I'm looking for: A good reason to play this map (btw, I did DL it and run through it). I just get negative 'vibes' about this one Captain P; hopefully you'll be able to prove me wrong.

-Good Luck with it...

[EDIT]

I CAN suggest something! I don't think it should be symmetrical that's too clich? and boring (especially for a map like this). Take advantage of the vertical game play!

Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202

Re: Launchpad 14 Posted by Captain P on Thu May 15th 2008 at 11:29pm

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Posted 2008-05-15 11:29pm

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Captain P

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1370 posts 1995 snarkmarks Registered: Nov 6th 2003 Occupation: Game-programmer Location: Netherlands

Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions. :smile:

Yeah, I've more or less been trying to cram a layout into an empty cylinder. That's a bit where I got stuck. Adding some walls and (placeholder) crates isn't going to do the trick I suppose. Back to the drawing board with that. I want to keep the general layout, but fill in the lower two floors better, as well as spicing up the upper floor and expanding the tower.

I'll post an update as soon as I have a layout that I'm more comfortable with. Don't worry - dm_mudanchee went through quite a few layout changes before it played like it plays today, and it certainly has looked uglier than this map looks right now, so I'm not too worried about that. :smile:

What I'm envisioning is a lot more make-shift and freeform looking than the current map, so don't worry about it looking too symmetrical or geometrical for now, it helps me focussing on the layout. Here's a sketch that shows what the final map should look like, roughly speaking:

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Re: Launchpad 14 Posted by Riven on Fri May 16th 2008 at 2:47am

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Posted 2008-05-16 2:47am

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Wow! I must complement you on your awesome sketch work! That helps me to understand the setting a little better. The idea and drawing reminds me of Yoda's planet, Dagobah.

Captain P said:
"but fill in the lower two floors better"

Eh, maybe it is just me, but simply 'filling in' what's there on the lower levels wouldn't do it for me. Circling around on such a small scale wouldn't be much fun IMO, I think there needs to be some deviating paths! But, if you pull off the awesome effects and details, this map certainly won't fail in the beauty department! It might become slightly iconic too!

It's looking better in my head; I'm waiting to play the next version soon!

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Re: Launchpad 14 Posted by reaper47 on Fri May 16th 2008 at 11:19am

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Posted 2008-05-16 11:19am

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Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

That sketch looks positively awesome. It's easier for me to see where you want to go with the layout now, too.

I made a little illustration for what I mean about layout vs. looks vs. geometry (sorry, pic got a bit large):

Basically, I feel like in your current layout, things are too strictly seperated as "first floor corridor" "second floor corridor" etc, with minimal overlapping and variation between two floors, except for a few doorways and crate-jumps. I think, as early as this is, you should already consider architectural details like this, because they're as important as the large-scale layout IMO.

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Re: Launchpad 14 Posted by Captain P on Fri May 16th 2008 at 11:40am

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Posted 2008-05-16 11:40am

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Captain P

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1370 posts 1995 snarkmarks Registered: Nov 6th 2003 Occupation: Game-programmer Location: Netherlands

Hmm, I see what you mean. The problem is, that central shaft is supposed to be an elevator, so I'm not sure if your example screenshot would really fit. But yes, I'm working on those floors: I'm now trying to approach them as a serie of interconnected rooms, with a few more connections between the floors, less opening towards the central shaft and less of a circular flow in them. So, if you'd just keep running forwards, you would visit multiple floors, rather than running the same circle again and again.

I'm thinking of some staircases, ladders and ramps between the rooms (and no climbing boxed), as well as assigning functions to the rooms, such as armoury, crew department, repair shop, refuel station, etc. Perhaps that'll help with the layout - it'll certainly help for the visuals later on.

I think I'll have a new layout done this evening. I'll post an update as soon as I'm ready. :smile:

Oh, and guys, I'll say it again: your feedback is awesome. It's really helping me a lot. Thanks! :smile:

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Re: Launchpad 14 Posted by haymaker on Fri May 16th 2008 at 1:28pm

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Posted 2008-05-16 1:28pm

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<div class="abouttext">Message submitted 7 minutes after original post:</b></div>
I just wanted to quickly say I really dig the whole map-in-a-tower concept, beats the map-in-a-hole hands down. The idea of a visible horizon is something I've been trying to incorporate with limited success. Are you thinking a custom skybox?

It also opens up some interesting possibilities for interior lighting with the light_environment via directional windows, you could get away with a sunset/sunrise thing here and have big industrial floods as well.

Anyway perhaps too early for lighting but the thought had occurred to me. Too bad light_env takes so bloody long to compute.

Re: Launchpad 14 Posted by Le Chief on Sun May 18th 2008 at 2:08am

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Posted 2008-05-18 2:08am

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Wow, that sketch looks cool, very professional looking.

It kind of appears as if in the sketch, the tower is wider at the base than it is at the top of the structure, I think that looks better and more natural. Those radio/satellite tower things in your sketch look great, I would like to see that in the map thanks :smile: .

But yeah, I'm waiting for some new screenshots now.

Actually, I would also like to add that this map reminds me of a Halo 3 multiplayer map. Here is a screenshot of it. The map is called blackout, for memory, its some sort of oil rig thing suspended high above some ice, its in the arctic or something.

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Re: Launchpad 14 Posted by Captain P on Sun May 18th 2008 at 8:07pm

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Posted 2008-05-18 8:07pm

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Yo, new screenies + download! :smile:

I've changed the layout considerably - the whole map is essentially rebuilt from scratch, the connectivity between floors should be a lot better now. I haven't done item placement in this version yet though, but that's next on the todo list now. I'm still thinking about some minor layout changes - adding a ladder from the control tower right towards the lowest floor, and a ladder in the external elevator part to connect the floors there, as in the first version.

So, what do you think? Is it a big improvement or not, and what other changes would you suggest?

Download here! (.rar, 566 kB)

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Re: Launchpad 14 Posted by reaper47 on Sun May 18th 2008 at 8:59pm

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Posted 2008-05-18 8:59pm

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Big improvement, IMO. Personally, I'd make the spaceship(?) a better connection for reaching the upper levels. Right now, you can't jump from the ship to the windows/openings on the above level (last pic you posted).

Some of the corridors/indoor rooms seem a little big for not adding much to gameplay. I think you could block off a few parts, shorten some corridors to save you work and make the layout feel denser and more varied.

I generally think the map's larger than it seems, so use this state to save you time and cut off every corner you don't need. :biggrin: Few things more tedious than detailing dev-textured rooms, so make sure you can get truly excited about every single one of them.

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Re: Launchpad 14 Posted by Captain P on Wed May 21st 2008 at 12:35am

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Posted 2008-05-21 12:35am

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1370 posts 1995 snarkmarks Registered: Nov 6th 2003 Occupation: Game-programmer Location: Netherlands

Update! :smile:

I've added weapons and other items now, as well as a ladder from the control tower to the lowest floor. Except for some odd spawn-point placement, the map should be fully playable now, so if anyone is interested in a playtest session, please drop me a line (PM, mail, msn, whatever).

Download here (.rar, 1.2 MB)

And of course, here's some updated screenshots (I've added the 3D skybox back in to give it some more sense of place, might help playtesting somewhat :razz: ):

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Re: Launchpad 14 Posted by Riven on Wed May 21st 2008 at 6:03am

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Posted 2008-05-21 6:03am

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<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">I have to admit, it's looking much, much better, as I think you already agree. I'm wondering what your new mindset was when going in to re-do the entire map? Obviously, you already mentioned floor connections, and layout in general, but I'm hoping you're keeping the bigger picture in-mind as well? The concept is showing through a lot better now in this rough, rough stage, but what I'm missing is the sense of scale. That-is, windows are very large, openings are very large, ramps and walkways seem very large; maybe it's just a really small map, and those dimensions are normal player dimensions appearing to be larger, but what throws me off are the thick brushes used to define walls and floor thicknesses. I imagine for such a small level, you will want to pack it with as much detail and game play as possible to keep it interesting; you should start at the layout phase by adding what I call: junk props. These props probably won't be used in the final pass on the map, but are useful in keeping scale and space oriented. Preferably static props, they are added at a whim's notice, and not pre-thought-out. They can be deleted later, but help to keep your sense of perspective and your audiences? perspective (especially when taking far-off shots such as the ones you posted). Just like orange-mapping a level from the beginning helps with texture and wall dimensions, so too can junk props help remind you that it won't be a barren bundle of on-grid polygons representing your fiction world. I?d like to eliminate the notion that adding props before a map is filled-in is bad. It?s alright to include props before weapons or textures. Anything that helps you rapidly prototype a design idea is something that should be used, and props can do that for you IMO. </SPAN>

<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN>

Keep up the good work!

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Re: Launchpad 14 Posted by haymaker on Wed May 21st 2008 at 6:49am

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Posted 2008-05-21 6:49am

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( I forgot to take screens of what Im about to say )

-I still can't find a reason to go up into the tower, seems disconnected somehow. I don't think you want a supercharger up there unless you leave it barren of weapons. Maybe an elvator from the lowest level, as an escape a la biohazard?

-There is a staircase opposite a deck/landing, it's just a touch out of reach for a jump in a counter-clockwise run. Another deck to the side of it could shorten that.

-I don't know how you were planning to deal with fall damage onto the plane-ship, I would either double up the hpacks on that grate deck that is just past it, or raise the plane's brush up until you don't crunch. ( Another trick is to place a model at a fall location )

The new brushwork looks a lot easier to hint, good call there. The only other concern I had was disorientation, but that will likely resolve itself during future stages. Nice fast layout!

Re: Launchpad 14 Posted by reaper47 on Wed May 21st 2008 at 10:27am

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Posted 2008-05-21 10:27am

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you should start at the layout phase by adding what I call: junk props. These props probably won't be used in the final pass on the map, but are useful in keeping scale and space oriented. Preferably static props, they are added at a whim's notice, and not pre-thought-out. They can be deleted later, but help to keep your sense of perspective and your audiences? perspective (especially when taking far-off shots such as the ones you posted).

Interesting tip, never thought of it that way!

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Re: Launchpad 14 Posted by Captain P on Wed May 21st 2008 at 11:23am

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Posted 2008-05-21 11:23am

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@Riven: Yes, it's the same big-picture idea: central core, close quarters combat, tight map. The previous version just lacked flow, floors were too self-contained.

Good point about scale there. I'm using a lot of player-starts in Hammer to give myself some sense of scale, never thought about giving others the same sense using props. I was planning to do some quick placeholder props soon, but more as detail placeholders and cover markers, not for the purpose you've stated. Good call. :smile:

I always use rough thick brushwork in early stages. Too fine brushwork works against me when reworking layouts, it's too time-intensive to rework easily, which makes it easier to postpone-into-eternity those small changes that need to be done. :smile:

@haymaker: I'm a bit afraid that the tower will become too much of a sniper spot, so I didn't add too much additional reason to go there. Perhaps I should place the crossbow in there to clearly mark it's purpose?

The fighter inside the central shaft is going to be a model. I didn't know that props prevent falling damage? That's a usefull detail then. :smile:

Ok, next version will have some placeholder props and some more landmark-stuff: lighting color, a few sounds perhaps, some more textures, etc. I'll do some 1v1 playtests here at home, but I think I'll stick with this layout now.

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Re: Launchpad 14 Posted by Gwil on Thu May 22nd 2008 at 5:50pm

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Posted 2008-05-22 5:50pm

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Item placement is nice enough, although I will say that their seems to be more than one (3 ?) Combine rifles. Could just turn into a run and gun fest, especially the ample ammo for SMG grenades too.. perhaps it would discourage camping spots though.

As for the layout as a whole, I like it. Would suit small groups of players, even as few as 1v1 duelling map.

Interesting now to see how the aesthetics progress, especially the outdoor vista. Onward with the tarting up!