dm_ff_stinger_b7

This is a a discussion topic for the map "dm_ff_stinger_b7" by Juim which can be found here

Started mapping again. Don't have a clear idea where I'm going yet, but it's starting to take some form. I Think I'm going to focus more on pure DM and playability rather than trying to make a real kind of environment.Tired of factories,cities,etc.

Looks good, I see you are still in love with curvy walls It reminds me of a Q3A style layout - good to focus on pure DM and playability I feel - my only concern would be the open nature, something a lot of the HL weapons don't lend themselves to (IMO at least)

I like the architecture, and design. Not your same old Dust map.. or City 17 environment.

Looks like fun.. is this one complete? Would this work for the GUNGAME? I know a server who would enjoy this map.. but its a GUNGAME server.

Some solid screenshots you have displayed there. Looking at the screenshots, it seems you are heading in the direction of making a Quake/Abstract styled map.

Seems to be fine at the moment, height variation is in check, can't really see any problems coming up at this stage, keep the screenshots coming.

Juim said:
I Think I'm going to focus more on pure DM and playability rather than trying to make a real kind of environment.Tired of factories,cities,etc.

Well than make something else, there are plenty of themes out there, you can even invent your own!

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Aaron's Stuff

Started work on the lower area.One screenie today, very early on, but feels good so far.

Looks good Juim, are those railings just placeholders? Replacing them with func_detail solves a couple weapon issues and may let you have more freedom with your texture aesthetic, ie not so grimy-hl2.

Also I know you have a monster machine there ( judging by your screens of striker ), watch your visblocking for the little guys like me!

OK, its Official.. I hate you. WOW man that looks awesome.. great tunnel there.

I agree with Muhnay, the tunnel looks pretty sweet.

Have you come up with any ideas on a theme for the map yet?

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Aaron's Stuff

Not mapping as much as I'd like, but I still poke away at this one when I can. Also taking my time as little inspirations seem farther apart on this, probably due to the haphaxard nature of the layout. Anywho, here's a few more screenies: some no clip shots. I added some glass hallways around the sides (partly to keep people within the structure). More from the other side. I also moved the glass tunnel outside and up top. Seemed a bit more conducive to appearance up there. And finally a current shot from down below. I am almost to the texturing stage.Lets hope I can keep moving on this one.

Lookin good Juim. I like that last screen, reminds me of the LD control room a bit.

One thing with the long glass hallways, they may become a discouraging way to go because of the distance/dynamic ratio...what I mean is, if you introduced a little "popout" like a wider, higher zone in the middle, it would give incentive to get halfway and then decide, kinda. I'd also be concerned about how the tools are gonna cut up the leafs around the solid curves, but that's controllable with hints as you know.

I don't know what you have in mind for a texture theme but remember that the less number of textures you have the better it will run. Looking at your brushwork I can see all kinds of possibilities for detailing with just your awesome lighting skills, so many shadow lines and pockets here and there. Lighting is the cheapest way to detail and here I think you've got some real opportunities.

Keep it up!

To quote a Robotical man.. WOWZERS! It is looking really Good!

Mmmm... curvy!

More curves! I see some hard edged corners, and they stick out like a sore thumb. Make them, curvy, too!

Just a bump. I replaced most of the pics in the first post (scroll back up to the top please). They represent the map as it is today. Thanks to a small physical setback, I managed to get in about 70 hours of mapping in the last ten days or so, and the map is starting to really take shape. I am not releasing any of the betas (yet), but you can PM me for a link to beta 3 if you like.I could use some feedback. I will have it posted first thing tomorrow morning(wednesday 03/04).
Thanks for having a look.
(Gwil, could you delete the last two pic links in the first post please?. Apparently I cant edit any posts after 30 minutes in any forum here, hehehe).

Looking good Juim. To be honest, I can't really think of much else to say going off screenshots since your not aiming for any sort of defined environment it seems and as you said.

I think that some of those interior/sheltered spaces are too dark and need to be brighter. Also, there is too much concrete and orange in there for me to handle, I think you need to add a bit of contrast in there such as metal or wood textures (anything but more concrete) and some textures on the green/blue side of the spectrum, it seems overly orange/yellow/red to me at the moment.

You could probably get away with leaving the light environment colour as it is and making those interior lights whiteish/light green/light blue.

And ofcourse you need to have background surroundings, you can't just have the level floating in a skybox like this.

Also, look at this.

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Aaron's Stuff

Those are beauty screens, the light fixtures bring it together nicely. What a difference a few hours makes! ( jk, I saw yr other post about 70 hours. Thanks for the credit there btw ) Also I wouldn't belittle your "physical setback" so, but kudos for making sure the show goes on.

Love that first shot especially, I can see the player movement in that area clearly. I agree with most of Aaron's points, though I like the way the basement floor turned out. You could probably get away with a few vent decals or a strip of that metalwall texture withe vent on it, here and there, without killing the fps. Especially in the basement, where it was the strongest on that runaround the other day. Maybe your posts could use a texture experiment too.

Aaron, that unreal shot is pure cinema, love that guy's work. dm_tobor remains one of the most fascinating maps I've come across. Although that LOD is way too advanced for hl2dm (98887 triangles!!!) it's cool to see the artistic approach.

OK beta 5 tested very well on the FF clan linux server. No crashes, and decent performance.I need some feedback now, as I am doing some minor architecture tweaks, haymakers speed ladders(where I can, a couple of them are too long I think), and a 3d skybox(already working on b6). So here's a download:
http://www.brdstudio.net/ffmember/juim/dm_ff_stinger_b5.zip
Any and all feedback would be appreciated.

Congrats on getting to this playable state! Cool to see a map so emphasised on curvature. Some quick impressions

[URL=http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/hh409/bc_haymaker/?action=view&current=dm_ff_stinger_b50003.jpg][IMG]http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh409/bc_haymaker/th_dm_ff_stinger_b50003.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

^ There's a few of these 1-unit lips that will become major frustrations when facing down ar2 fire or something. Clipses!

[URL=http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/hh409/bc_haymaker/?action=view&current=dm_ff_stinger_b50004.jpg][IMG]http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh409/bc_haymaker/th_dm_ff_stinger_b50004.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

^ A simple displacement in a 3d skybox here could fade out to sky colour fog, would add about 2 fps load probably

[URL=http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/hh409/bc_haymaker/?action=view&current=dm_ff_stinger_b50000.jpg][IMG]http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh409/bc_haymaker/th_dm_ff_stinger_b50000.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

^ Managed to get stuck here between the rail and the ceiling

[URL=http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/hh409/bc_haymaker/?action=view&current=dm_ff_stinger_b50001.jpg][IMG]http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh409/bc_haymaker/th_dm_ff_stinger_b50001.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

^ Match the light fixture to the light glow, try setting "rendercolor" to the light colour. Here I'll mention the use of sprites/ point_spots/ fog, I know there are not present in your quest for performance but I think you could afford some judicious use. That is when you figure out what's hitting the average in this corner.

[URL=http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/hh409/bc_haymaker/?action=view&current=dm_ff_stinger_b50005.jpg][IMG]http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh409/bc_haymaker/th_dm_ff_stinger_b50005.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

You may have to fool around with areaportals or something, this is passable but way below the rest of the map.

[URL=http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/hh409/bc_haymaker/?action=view&current=dm_ff_stinger_b50002.jpg][IMG]http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh409/bc_haymaker/th_dm_ff_stinger_b50002.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

^ The lampstand seems totally incongruent with the rest of the modus-operandi in that it's static, makes no "logical" sense. Plus it gets in the way. You may be able to change that light to a single dynamic light that dies when the lampstand gets picked up, the frames are good right there and if you keep the dynamic lightmaps to a small cone it wouldn't hurt too much.

I can't comment on the weap placement or spwanpoints, except slams in this map are a power item, I would make them much harder to get, especially with teleports around.

Coming along very nicely!

OT I put those
lines in there attempting to get "preview" to work, they did for that but now it looks way diff, as does all the formatting...I would say preview needs some work?

Not bad. The layout is pretty cool, it certainly offers the opportunity for many interesting scenarios to come up in gameplay.

I still think there is too much concrete and orange, I'm not sure what your feelings are towards all the concrete and orange lighting but I think that there is too much of it, I certainly think that the map would benefit from a bit of contrast (more than what you have). And some of those interior spaces like I said before where a bit too dark for a multiplayer game where it is likely that players will have no flash light.

I agree with what haymaker says about the light stand, it feels in the way and seems like a bad design choice to me and infact I think that whole couch/lamp thing you got going there is pretty pointless at the moment (we are yet to see what your going to do with it) and detracts from that space.

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Aaron's Stuff

Thank you for the walkthrough Hay, and your comments as well Aaron. Couple of things. First, I am currently working on the 3d skybox: As you can see it's starting to take shape. I am also taking into consideration your comments Aaron, about the coloring. I have changed skyboxes and re-done the light_env colors to facilitate a more eveningy kinda look: This will also mean lighting the upper decks(as you can see I have already started this process.
Hay, I have a couple of questions about your comments.
1: Could you please be more specific about the skybox/fog thing?
and,
/2: I am using prop_statics for those fixtures you referred to and I am not familiar with the rendercolor process. Alittle help there as well.

/I would love to send someone the map for optimizing, as I can never seem to wrap my head around hints/area_portals. I have tried them in several places where I see the engine drawing way too much of the map, but they seem to have no effect or very little at most.

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Quote from Nietzsche....God is dead
Quote from God....Nietzsche is dead

Excellent progress in the screens Juim! 3D box makes a big diff there. Nice contrast to the orange below. Be careful with the ambient light levels, dim maps = frustrated players for the most part. Couple big bright spots from up high would work well too.

Regarding my fog comment, originally I was envisioning something super basic like a single displacement in your 3d sky, so what I said doesnt apply really, cause you won't have a visible horizon. Besides that I was gonna say try a few numbers in the fog controller for your main play area, it'll take awhile but I think you'll come up with something you like. Check out Lockdown, it's set up so you don't really notice it, but it's there alright. Also Valar did a nice blend on Milieu too.

These maps don't have a 3d skybox, so after you're happy with an interior fog, you can set 3d sky fog options in the sky_camera properties, to achieve a blend that isn't too overdone. I did this on that contest map you joined me on, fire it up and watch the fog fades between world and 3dbox, I think I got pretty close there.

About the rendercolor, it's only available on non-static props, so set that one to _dyn override and you'll be able to subtly change the color of the prop. An env_lightglow with the color set to the light would be good too.

I'm having major windows issues but PM me a link to a vmf and I'll try to check it out!

B...U...M...P
OK, so in order to save web hosting space I replaced all of the map posts previous pics with the current ones(beta 7), so,please disreguard all comments which accompany them.
Now on to business. Beta 7 will most likely be the last beta barring any grand errors. It's a frilly affair with the FF clan stamp all over it. Players seem to have fun with it though. There's custom textures, a custom sound secret, secret teleporters, and an RPG killer secret which Reapers dm_balcony inspired. (It's an "homage" Reap!).I added Haymakers speed ladders where I could. The longer ladders, due to their vertical nature just would'nt work well, so I left them as regular ladders. Special thanks to Haymaker, btw, who took time to run around the map with me on several occasions, pointing out countless little(and big) things to do/fix. Now I know I have'nt really inspired anyone with this map, but I could really use fresh eyes for the final release. It is rather a fun map if I do say so myself,(and I do!).Linkage:
http://www.brdstudio.net/ffmember/juim/dm_ff_stinger_b7.zip
And for those of you just joining us here's the screenies all in one post.: This is one of the main courtyards. I call it the "Pluck-n-Chuck" cause theres melon trees a growin thar! Same courtyard, reverse view. You have to hit the jump pad just right. goofy little teleporter I snuck in. A view from down below. The glass tubey thingy. Another angle from down below. This is the other main area above. Got some Z-axis goin on here. the reverse on that area. NoClip, top down view. Another view from below. I got rid of all the glass fanciness. Took a heavy toll on performance. the founders room(secret sound byte in here). My version of Reapers RPG killer. (Shoot the rotating FF sign from anywhere to remove rocketeer from roof!) Just a sexy view to show part of the 3d skybox.
So I have a few things to do, but mostly I need feedback/critz/comments, etc. As always thanks for having a look.

Lookin good! I'll give it a go later but one things that strikes me is the map is very "diffuse" in both lighting and texture choice. See if you can sharpen up some of those shadows and perhaps even use more spotlight entities with nice crisp cones instead of the light entities or wide spotlights. With the texture choices, you using alot of bare textures, look at the first shot, the concrete floor, some of those walls, the tunnel thing and the first shot isn't the worst offender of overuse of bare textures cough 3rd last cough 6th last cough 4th cough 6th etc. Your missing out on alot of detail and depth in your level by using these textures!

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Aaron's Stuff

Still plugging away here. Trying to bring some color and a bit more diversity to this area.

Its Official, I hate you now. =) LOL, man that rockstars! Great work so far. I can hardly wait to run around in it and see of the goodness it has to offer.

I played this map the other day. Not really much else to say, it takes me a while to figure out layout or pacing issues and little things like if the height of objects should be decreased or what not, might play thought it again and look for that sort of stuff.

It had a few perks which I think add character to the map which is a positive.

I still agree with my comment about the map being very diffuse in terms of lighting and texture choices. I think by having diffuse lighting and texturing your missing out on alot of depth and making the level look less meaty. I'm sure your onto that though, this is probably just an early iteration of textureing and I'm sure you'll refine the lighting as this project continues, we have already seen big changes in that department ;).

And ofcourse, ambient sound... don't forget about that but that's usually one of the things that happen in the second half of development.

Edit:

One other thing, I think you could do a better job with the 3D skybox or that space outside the level. I didn't really get the feeling of being a part of a greater world, it still felt "oh yeah, so beyond those buildings is where the world ends". I think you should add some distant buildings to really create that sense of depth, and also, I think it would be better if you removed that ground and extended the height of the buildings so we can't see the bottom or start of them.

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Aaron's Stuff

Lookin' good! View seems a little "sharper" in that screenie. Those walkway-awnings look like a good idea, save some fall damage. Just as long as they don't impede entry/exit from the walkway via jumps.

Aaron's comment on sound is worth working on. I didn't say anything before because it hadn't occurred to me, being in-development as it was.

I hadn't noticed anything terribly amiss with the 3d box but I wasn't really looking, though. I do like the way your buildings have turned out, they look "alive" somehow. Maybe just some func_illusionary silhouettes made out of halflife/black poking up here and there in the distance might work.

I've had a few games on this now, and it plays great! The attention to FPS has really helped it along. Your best effort to date by a fair margin imo. Yesterday I noticed a particular angle into the 3d box that was near-perfect too.

I found it quite easy to just camp the back basement orb-hcharger-understairteleport area for most of the games I've played. That area has a lot more power base than the "FF" hall, which I found I just didnt even want to go to, knowing there would a good chance of slams there, or an rpg user nearby. Not worth the might-not-be-there power points either. So for me the map seems a bit unbalanced that way.

One other subconcious point i noted is that I kept expecting an hpack/vial at the top of the ladder leading to the back window, from that hcharger area below. idk why but it seems that there should be one there, maybe because it's a 4-way intersection.

Sweet map, one of my favs so far this year!

Thanks Hay for the great comments. I am attempting to balance that area out by adding a back area to the founders hall, and throwing in a combine ball spawner. Your praise is unexpected and greatly appreciated.It's Awesome to get such positive feedback from such a noted mapper!!!!!!!!!!!!.
(PS)..
I will definitely put a healthpack in that area you mentioned.

http://www.brdstudio.net/ffmember/juim/dm_ff_stinger_b9.zip
Latest version. Here's some screenies: So I widened the walkways in the upper west courtyard. Added some awnings for drop down Z-axis fun. Added some teleporters to several different parts of the map to aid gameplay. Re-lit the entire map(and added a tone of walkway lights), enlarged the "Jump" pad, clipped the outer walkways(so you can't get outside the map now), and btw the whole map is clipped to facilitate low grav servers,(but the frame rates might not be so desirable from way up there unless you have a monster rig.). There are no screenies of the lower area, as not much has changed there. I must admit that the way my brain works, sometimes I need to step away from the mapping for a bit, and usually, something will come to me.And, the watermelons in the "Pluck-n-Chuck courtyard are 'splodable now!
Things I need to do yet:
The lower area(duh)
I need a good tutorial on floating weapon pick-ups. (The one at interlopers leaves a pile of weapons at the world center.).
Founders hall(east side). Need to add a back room, it's a pet project for the clan, but I also need to add some incentive to go there for gameplay balance.
I don't do modeling yet, but I would love to customize the exploding barrels with the FF logo!.
And of course, any major changes you might see/suggest will always be taken into consideration, (as you can see by the B9 version!.)
Thanks for the great feedback as always.

Come on people!. Reaper! Reno!, I at least deserve an "I hate this map!". I can take it!. And,... I historically have made huge changes based on suggestions made by you Pitters. As it is, I am getting the most positive feedback I have ever recieved on this one from the server crowd. So make with the opinions/critz. I'd do it for you!
(Insert soft emotion extracting violin music here).

Gee, I hope I can give as good feed back as Haymaker did

Well, the visuals are starting to look pretty solid now, lighting looks a bit sharper, don't know if that's just because there is more contrast (colour and brightness wise) now, I still think the textures look really diffuse though. You need to add more "trim" and add a bit more depth to those walls by using more "detailed" textures I guess and ease off a little on those bare textures, although the diffuse textures don't stand out as much as they did the last set of screenshots.

I'll download it later and I'll let you know what I think, I'll pay attention to gameplay and such this time ;). But seriously, if I don't reply within 2 days, you should pm me just to remind me, I'll probably forget!

Juim said:
I don't do modeling yet, but I would love to customize the exploding barrels with the FF logo!.

Photoshop skills is all you need! I wrote a tutorial on this. Hopefully its not too messy, I think I might have to refine it up a bit!

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Aaron's Stuff

Yes the barrel reskin is not too much work at all. Check out Aaron's tut ( nice work btw on the tuts Aaron ).

And check your PM's Juim.

The only thing I have to say is that the true testimony comes from the multitude of players who have playtested this map over the last few weeks. The general feedback is that this map is extremely enjoyable to play with a real diverse layout which keeps the action fresh. I continue to receive many requests to put this map up next n the cycle while we are playing. There are areas of this map which are tactical, and yet other areas where it is straight out close up warfare. Once again, great job! So far this year, this map is the players favorite, at least on my two servers!

well, it's finished for the most part. Download has been updated to this final version. I called it rc1 just in case someone found something I missed but I really can't think of anything else to do here. Heavily optimized from beta 9, (Thanks Haymaker and [eye]Valar!). Retextured and re-lit, I feel like this is also the most playable so here's a couple of screenies: couple of shots of the lower area. Here's a picasso style teleporter! From up above. The rest of the areas are pretty much the same as the other screenshots, so I won't bother reposting them, but thanks for your inputs and as always, having a look!
the download:
http://www.brdstudio.net/ffmember/juim/dm_ff_stinger_rc1.zip