clipnodes and brush entities

so. My masterpiece NS map was completed. It was just over 8000 brushes.

...which decided to put me over the clipnode max. I wasnt sure by how much, but after doing what i thought was good clipnode-reducing work, i still couldnt compile nor see how much i was over by. So, i manually compiled each room, wrote down their clip numbers, and added together. It seemed as though i was standing at roughly 134% of the clipnode max.

I worked more and more, and got down to 116%, which is where i currently stand. Then i realized something.

Did you guys know that brush entities screw with clipnodes?! I have the habit of func_wall'ing my detail brushes. But it turns out that, in terms of clipnodes, ent + clip > worldbrush > ent > worldbrush + clip.

Meaning, the best way to lower clipnodes, was to actually make these details into worldbrushes, and THEN clip them. If they're entities, the clipnodes actually go way up. This may be why i was still sitting so high (134%) after doing all those clips.

Does anyone know anymore or have an explanation?

if you copy/paste your post into the original thread, then this one can be deleted.

cheers.

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i eat paint

the other thread was already off-topic. It started because of a nooby error, when i copied a brush entity and made it a clip, hence the clip-entity error thing.

This topic pretty much summarizes the solution to my actual problem; how to lower clipnodes. After my post, i worked it down to about 108%, so i still have more hacking to do to be able to fully compile my map.

This thread is mostly theoretical; does anyone know why entities + clips = crazy high clipnodes? Or more specifically, how clipnodes really work? it seems as though they're touch-and-go. Sometimes adding a clipbox really reduced clipnodes, sometimes they instead quadruple them. Its weird.

This topic pretty much summarizes the solution to my actual problem

aye, the one that you wrote about in the other thread. having one thread summarize a problem that is detailed in another doesn't make much sense to me.

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i eat paint

If anything, its the other thread that should be deleted, or tapered after the answer to the initial question. This thread summarizes the second problem along with its solution, and asks for clarification of how the engine decides to do this.

Are you not going to respond until i copy it over or something? Im just following the forum rules.

wow, this is really interesting. Brush entities seriously add like double the amount of clipnodes compared to worldbrushes. This is proof positive of the value of 1-unit gaps as opposed to func_wall'ing en mass (at least for large maps).

Cince the world is an entity itself (entity no. 0), and all other entities are groups of their own (which is why different entities don't split each others faces, but brushes in the same entity do split up each others faces), I'd speculate that clipbrushes are used to simplify the clipping nodes generated by the world entity only.

It seems this system isn't optimized for multiple entities, probably each entity cuts up the clipping tree some more, even though it shouldn't because its completely covered by solid/clipping brushes.

Anyway, using func_illusionaries for smaller detail brushes should help, if I remember correctly.

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

yeah, thats what ive been doing. Its just that some details, you want to be able to touch rather than walk through. Or have stop bullets.

It seems as though an illusionary with a clip box is the same as a worldbrush with a clipbox. Maybe clips over worldbrushes actually completely nullify the worldbrush's clips?

An illusionary brush doesn't contribute to the clipping hull, since it's, well, pretty much thin air with some clothing. So yeah, it should give pretty much the same results, if not better, than a world brush would do.

And yeah, since clip brushes are world brushes (well, you can tie them to entities, but you didn't, so anyway) I'd say the final result of world brushes is what is used to create the clipping tree, and then entities are used to modify the tree.

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Create-ivity - a game development blog