op4_desertpost

Well, after the reviews for op4_dream, i realized i was trying way to hard to make a "decent" map. So i concentrated on the quality of the space, instead of the quantity....so here ya go

Slow down there mappa monkay :biggrin: . You release way to many maps, too close between..Thats not a bad thing, but sit down, and polish the map!

Commented in your profile about it :smile: .

HAHA, im a mapper monkey! :biggrin: Thnanks for the input Vash. If you have any suggestions on architecture i would enjoy the input. I seem to get that a lot, the improving the architecture comment. I honestly dont know what else i could do. I thought i did a great job on those towers and the insides of the buildings. But what do i know :smile: . And about that mapping to much, i plan on taking a loooong break in about 3 days, so dont you worry

I dont mean to be rude.. But to be honest I really think this map sucks.

I see some good stuff in it.. but its a box, with a few buildings.. that are also boxes, I think your selling yourself short by making these box maps..

Again.. I am not trying to be mean.. or hurt your feelings in any way..

($)

No problem money, this is why i submit maps....although i kinda liked this map... :smile: ....but oh well, i seem to have a hard time making a map that isnt...uh a box. Im sure i will figure it out someday, but untill then i just have to practice my architect skills and texture skills (although, by the looks of it, those arnt doing so well either). Once again, thanks for the input.

there is nothing wrong with the "BOX" in itself, afterall all most of the default HL maps are boxes, and all did very well.

where you diverge from them is your assortment of contents in these boxes, you can literally see everywhere at once, a malady i assume comes from you learning to play killboxes maybe? of possibly you were tarnishes in some other way by badly made maps, but the bottom line is, use your box effectively, have multiple heights on buildings, put them closer together, with the occasional open area, don't make open areas the RULE!

study other successful boxed maps, notice the commonality of them, don't clone one, but use the ideas that worked.

same holds true for the failures, notice what went wrong, forget the fact that its played, we have already established that players have no idea of success, look to YOUR peers, if they are mappers, they are the ones you need listen to, if indeed they are the players, then cater to them as well, but be advised, your maps will always look like this if you listen to the wrong people. its up to you to decide if that OK or not.

Unfortunately my architecture tutorials are currently down, but Lep said he would put them up over christmas I believe. If he does I suggest you check them out. Your brushwork is certainly improving i would say, but you do need to scrap this idea of working in a box IMO. Try making a couple of rooms as opposed to a large outside area. I big mistake I see lots of newcomers to mapping make is as you are doing, using the big empty box and filling it in. Once you do some interior level design I think it will improve your outdoors stuff too, as whether you are doing indoor or outdoor stuff, the big box technique is NOT the way to go. Anyways, this has kinda turned into an incoherent rant, so I'll leave it at that, but while this is an improvement on your earlier attempts, its still fundamentally flawed by just being a big box.

^^points to reno's reply^^

this is what separates the men from the rest of us.

i still think like a n00b, reno has advanced way beyond that, especially since i have known him :smile:

i still feel my comments above are valid tho, boxes are not the bane of mapping, just their contents.

i do not make boxes anymore, but did once, everyone does i think.

reno is the opposite end of n00b, there are many steps in between, don't be ashamed that you are using them, or that you have many left between you and him.

the steps between he and i are still blurred from distance as well so believe me, i know what great is :smile:

Well I guess perhaps I was harsh saying big boxes are a terrible approach, as in a sense I do it too for outdoors areas. The difference is that I don't keep religiously to a box shape, and I make the box around the contents. So my outdoors areas are content driven, as opposed to the contents being determined by the box as in your case. Perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps you make the contents and then build the box around, but it doesn't come across that way to me.

And Orph is wrong, he doesn't think like a n00b, he thinks playability, which is something I tend to have as an afterthought to visuals.

Hey i bet REI does not take any affence i big boxes :biggrin:

i gause he is used to it "KILLBOX"

any way i quite like the map :smile:

Hahaha. Nice, Pegs.

But I disagree a bit... These kinds of maps can have good gameplay on them. And no, I'm not just saying that it will rock because its a huge box, and no, I'm not comparing it to killbox.

I think these styles of maps can work in a very arena-esque sense- players start on the outside and get some basic weapons (probably nothing more powerful than the 9mmAR/Shottie), then are drawn towards the center by a need for ammo/better weapons. Mabye place a little health charger or two in the center to further goad the players, and tadaa! An open map now has some semblence of flow. And as long as there are buildings and other various structures around to keep players on the outskirts from seeing all the other egdes of the map, then I can't say that it would be bad.

On the other hand, the architecture does look a little bit blocky, and the lighting really needs some work, it's just too plain. Also, try to add a bit of realism in there- this is a desert complex, unless I am sorely mistaken. Add some bump-age to the ground, a few dunes forming near the bases of the buildings (with a common windward face, for continuity), etc. Mabye some crumbling structures or someting. You're the mapper, I'm sure you can think of somethin'.

But still, I would say to try and take ReNo's advice for future maps- try to move towards from the method he has described. It is much harder to pull off, but the end result is often much, much more playable. Arena's get old for one main reason- all the games seem to turn out the same. And while fun for a while, the novelty soon wears off. In a map such as ReNo described, games often hold more depth and variation.

Good luck in the future, and just remember you're mapping for yourself too. Don't just make something for others, make something you think you'd have fun playing in.

Wow, i had no idea a box could have such controversy in it...all the same though thanks a bunch for the input and i will defenetly try and use it in my next maps.

I would like however to voice my thoughts (as wrong as they might be) on my boxes. I seem to have a perseption of maps that is wrong. That perseption is:

That all tiny/small maps have an open area (not an outside area, but an open area) twards the middle and something on the outside of the map for cover, and that all Med/Large/Huge maps seem to have buildings placed all over the place and have paths running inbetween and around them. As for my lighting, i fail to see how a light entity modled to be the sun can be any more exciteing unless im doing something wrong in creating the light_env. And everytime i put in a slow pulse or flicker for effect someone seems to dissagree with where i put it or how its used. And for my architecture, in my previous map op4_dream, there were comments about how boxes as buildings arnt wrong but they need to be spiced up a bit. I honestly, despite all the input i have recived from everyone, can not figure out how to make a building not a box...every map i have looked at i have found that buildings are either boxes, or a combination of boxes on top of boxes.

For my preconcived ideas about mapping i would have to say that they come mostly from the maps op4_yard, gasworks, bootcamp and op4_area 51. All of these maps are quite fun to play but the styles of each map are different. All of these maps with the acception of boot camp have wide open areas and are out side. Granted that is not the only part of the map gasworks, but as long as i have played that all the action seems to happen in wide open areas.

Remember this is coming from a noob here, im not saying this is the right way to map or to even think of mapping im just telling what i have noticed as a new mapper. I hope this info helps you guys pin point my trouble in breaking away from the box map. Thanks again guys for your time and knowledge

It is correct that most maps have one or more open areas for main combat. I think the problem is that in your maps there is too much of the open area and not enough room taken up by buildings. This leads to maps where you can see from one side to the other, which would be fine if the HL engine could handle it, but it struggles a great deal with detailed outdoor spaces. If you look at the map 'crossfire' for example, there are 2 arenas:

the building arena

This is a pretty confined space with several buildings meeting closely together. There is a smallish open floor area, but most of the fighting takes place from the walkways and balconies.

the turret area

This area is pretty large and features a large building, 2 towers and a bunker. The building is visblocking the other arena by having twisted corridors to block the line of sight. The bunker also twists at each end to stop visibility. The arena has made made quite simple in design because there is a reasonable amount of data for the engine (buildings, turrets, crates). If the towers didn't exist, there would probably be some other sort of filling, not necessary in their place.

The idea of these two arenas is to keep the r's below a certain limit, which was probably a bit lower than it is now. The concept still remains though, that the map has to be divided into several totally visblocked parts. In the building arena, there are ledges and balconies of different heights, and ramps and tunnels too. Although the place is quite cramped, it gets very hectic with all of the entranced to the arena.

I think the problem with the outdoor maps you make is that:

• There is no major visblocking. It is difficult to make an outdoor map with two or more completely visblocked arenas, but it has to be done, and that is why outdoor maps are often harder to make than indoor maps
• There are no adjoining rooms in the map. It is a good idea to have a mixture of indoor and outdoor areas in a map, but with several rooms linked together with corridors, maybe one branch of the corridor leading outside. It is best to have this sort of thing at the edge of the map to block off some of the abruptly ending skybox. The other parts of the map should be blocked off with, maybe other buildings connected with small walls to make it look like they have a use. Add a big door or gate to one of these walls, but make it unopenable. This give you a map with an arena and several buildings (but different shapes). If it affects the connectivity of the map to add another arena to the side, try going down. A bunker, a secret underground complex, a cave, tunnels, sewers?

Maybe it would be better to draw a diagram

Thanks a lot Sim, once again you seemed to explain it in a way a noob (mainly me) can understand. My only question is....If your making a smaller map than normal, say a tiny map, do your rules still apply? Cus there really wouldnt be much room for all the parts of the map you were talking about.

OH and i just thought of something else...I know this is a pointless excuse trying to make it sound like i know what im doing, but not many people play Opposing forces anymore and i realized this during like my 7th map. So i decided to stick with close combat maps that could quickly fill up and get some action going. Granted there are a couple of servers that are still full, but for the most part OP4 only has about 50 people playing at a time.

Anyways, thanks for the info Sim, i will use it in my next maps.

kinda nice to see, for once i am not on the wrong side of a discussion :smile:

in some small way, we all concurred, thats so cool :biggrin:

Maby on the outside you could tarrain it

Small maps usually have a main arena, with bits tacked on around the side. But maybe you could try several small rooms and some corridors. I find that you can make some interesting maps by having a fairly loose map, and then building onto it with rooms above and walkways stretching above the other floor. This is prevalent in GMDM2.

The map, in some odd way, looks as if it could all be a massive prefab. Don't ask me why, it's just the vibe I'm getting.

And, what Reno said.

You know what I would like to see you do?

Id like to see you take that DOCKS map you did, add it a tad lower than this map, and connect it with a couple winding pathways, maybe one outdoor though a narrow rocky path, and the other a tunnle. Combine the two maps to make one map.

And then add a bit of VIS Blocking to this map. Start one team up high and the other down by the water.

I am glad I did not hurt your feelings and from my post alot of good info came your way. Good luck with the map.. I look forward to seeing it complete.

($)

:smile: Thanks all agian for the input! And like i said before, if i was worried about being shot down i wouldnt post...how else do you think i can learn :smile: