Shoulna started it, but here it is, 90 min compile and all. I've broken many rules building this, and it may turn out to be too cramped for fast gameplay. The cranes and crowsnests are climbable and accessible in aft to forward jumps. There are 2 cargo holds, connected by an upper hallway and a lower passage; there is a connected engine room aft, and a similar bow compartment. The bridge sits upon 3 floors of (empty) cabins. I've been lazy finishing the prow as you can see from the screens.

As a result of all this the fps on my machine is not great on the outer decks. It's areaportaled pretty well but not heavily. The water may have to be altered perhaps.

Totally cool idea! I like what I see, I don't care if the gameplay is kinda cramped, it looks exciting!

-Well actually I do care if the gameplay is kind cramped. I imagine this map would be good for CS:S But I can still see myself playing with the physics gun in that hull interior section, and of course when outside. I would just hope that you left the deck clutter-free because sometimes people like a fresh breather from being caught up inside the hull and would want to run around on deck, so don't put crates up top too.

Speaking of "on deck" I do believe (via just screenshots) that it looks like you could use just a little more detail. It looks just a little too blocky from that second shot, but maybe that's just me. :smile:

-Keep it up, I wanna see this map in action!

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Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202

The boat looks great, but it's proportions look a little strange to me. Maybe it's because of the angle, but i think it should be a little longer.

Very nice! The inner part (with the containers) is too dark. It's not total blackness but I had to turn my monitor brightness to 100% (which makes blacks look grey) to even make out the container.

I could also imagine the inner parts to be too cramped like Riven said.

If you do care about gameplay and don't treat this map as an exercise in realism (one can always experiment), I'd consider closing most of the empty cabins/corridors to focus the gameplay on some main routes. The map could become an over-connected maze-type place where you never find your enemies otherwise.

Good lighting, too, actually. It's not what I prepare to comment about when seeing a real-world ship themed map, but you used your lights really well IMO. Always room to improve, though.

Make sure there are no parts that are only lit by indirect skylight (not pitch-black but not reached by sun or artificial light sources either). Usually those are solely lit by the "ambient" light from the light_environment entity. Shady parts that are so big you don't really recognize them as shadows. Those parts are usually too dark for many monitors.

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Why snark works.

Thanks for the comments all!

Andrei, the scaling and proportions are somewhat dictated by Hammer and the way the engine renders fov. Total length of the hull is 4078, beam is 992. I've tried out a concept based on real world measurements and the engine just makes it look waay to huge. I have wrestled with the idea of lengthening it; may still do. I find traveling the length at the moment to be just at the edge of the boredom limit; for someone slower it may be too much.

There's also the performance factor; right now the bow is a nasty spot for fps. Riven, adding more detail I think is a nono unforunately, although I had already went with the idea of minmal throw props outside. One thing I did do before this compile is puke decals all over and for some reason a lot of them don't show up on game. Do you think removing decals entirely will help performance a lot outside?

Layout-wise I am trying to keep it as simple as possible, yes. The cabins basically comprise an entire floor of the wheelhouse with access to outside/next floor and a hook here and there for vis.

Lighting is on a first-run basis atm; it probably looks dim to you Reaper47 because I always play the game with the gamma @ 2.2, a good bit past that "barely visible" guideline ( i'll wager agood chunk of players actually do the same). I probably should set it to what the factory wants though, you're right.

My main concerns at the moment are performance related... things like, "would having shallower water speed it up?" and "should I areaportal the entire back half from the front?"

Any tips on this are most welcome!!

A couple more screens
outside

^fps hell

^ aft hold. no access through the hatches

haha found one problem at least, I had TWO sets of water brushes inside eachother, NOOB.

Here's a workable alpha if anyone's interested.

file here

Things I know for sure:

-some models need their lighting origins reassigned
-some spawnpoints need adjusting
-there is a plan for props in the water that is not implemented here
-i forgot to visgroup that nasty displacement at the bulb ( bow )
-Source doesn't like designs like this.

New concept. The central hull is now 192 longer. Setting is a little far fetched but improves flow considerably. Interior layout changes I'm considering;

-open bulkhead between cargo holds
-close off one or more wheelhouse levels to keep players out
-add internal catwalk on port side of forward hold to connect with the dead end above the bulkhead







A side note, I've tweaked my in-game autoexec a bit more to include r_decals 0 and a couple other things, has helped fps on this and other problem maps by almost 200%.

Nice. You could start releasing BSPs, as it's starting to get hard to give any kind of feedback based on screenshots alone.

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Why snark works.

Thanks Reaper. The a2 with water is

file here

This version has a couple nasty spots, I'm aiming to get it out in a few days.

I don't think the new setting is far fetched at all, the seas drying up is part of HL2 canon if memory serves me. The combine are using portals to take natural resources from Earth back to wherever they came from, including vast amounts of water. Plus with all large bodies of water being infested with xen leeches, open sea might be considered more far fetched in the HL2 universe.

I had a run through A2 a while ago and the level flow out on open water, with gameplay confined to only the ship definitely had the potential to be an issue for this map. A good design decision here IMHO.

Some of the interior corridors are quite narrow and dark, making navigating the level a confusing affair at points. In my opinion every part of the map should be large enough to allow strafing in a firefight, unless it's specifically intended to be a choke point.

This would be considered more of a stylistic choice/matter of preference, but mid-day sunlight is closer to pale green-yellow (yellow green-yellow) than orange in reality. The light_env brightness you have in these latest screens is more like "just after sunrise" or "a little before sundown" than the time of day the sun's angle would suggest. But it looks good as it is and like I said it's more of a matter of preference than anything, so feel free to ignore this point. The perceived color of sunlight also varies with geographic location, season/time of year, and atmospheric/smog conditions in addition to time of day, so whatever floats your boat, so to speak.

The ship's hull is a damn impressive piece of work to have been made in Hammer, good job on that. Overall it looks very promising, plenty of Z-axis gameplay, varied and believable areas, I'm looking forward to the next release of this map.

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o

Thanks for the compliment!

Agreed on all points too. That is the old brightness there, I'll try something else.

Thanks for the compliment!

Agreed on all points too. Layout will be seeing some changes.

An alteration to the previous concept. I just couldn't get get my head around the piles of mud, snow makes more sense. Now I'm wrestling with the annoying daytime brightness of the snow, plus the terrible movement the modified friction delivers.

The cliffs are placeholders for now, they're not close to the heights I'm after. I'm not expert enough to make a sheer displacement cliff to the scale I want without ugly texture tiling.

Sweet! Nice idea, the ice. Rather original.

Try a custom VMT to get rid of some of the texture side effects. Just export the original VMT with a program like gfcScape, then, for example, delete the friction values.

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Why snark works.

Thx Reaper. I've created VMT's for customs before but not for one in the GCF, I'll have to figure a way to make the game look at mine first. The glare I've gotten under control by lowering the light_environment variable for the moment.

There is some interior work to do but I hope to have a beta by Christmas

Here is the a6, its very close to beta.

There are many things I'm not satisfied with, but they can't be changed, so c'est la vie.

There are a few things that can be changed, for example I'm not sold on the way the interior turned out. The door/container combo is there to break up vis, I am unsure if it impedes traffic too much.

I struggled with both MAN and pakrat for 2 hours tonight, I can not get them to properly embed the custom snow textures ( they have the snow friction removed ). The filesize went up accordingly, but if I delete the folder the materials were in, they show up checkerboard...I don't get it :sad:

This is an awesome map Haymaker. I would have to say it's quite possibly the first viable representation of a ship for DM that I have seen. FPS are amazing in the wider views, nice job there.There are so many little touches which make this map stand out. I love the invisible lifts you are using(?) for the smaller ladders, and the hatches having func_illusionary bottoms so as not to impede passing. I only have a few smaller suggestions. First, (and excuse my lack of ship side knowledge), I guess you would call it the right side of the ship(looking from the bridge towards the bow), I would add a fast way to get back on board somewhere mid-ship. Perhaps a rope ladder if there is such a model to be found.

Secondly I was wondering how the ship got so burried amidst rocks?. The sea would have had to have dropped like 50 to 80 feet or more for such a grounding. I thought it might be nice to open up the rocks behind the ship and allow visible access to a 3d skybox with water and icebergs of some sort. You could also add a giant propellor spinning in shallow water back there, further enhancing the theme of running aground. Thats just my imagination though and by no means a crit of the map.

Thirdly, I was staring at the bigger picture from the bow and I thought what a wonderful opputunity this would be for a night time setting. The ship, having been run aground but still having lights and power would obviously have people concerned with rescuing it, so there would be ample oppurtunity for more drastic lighting with work/spot lights, generators, etc. It would be very awe inspiring visually to have subtle shades of light hilighting the arena area. Inside the ship would be fine as is.

The rest is just fine tuning and I have no doubt you will be fine there. Great , awesome job so far, I look forward to a releasable playable version of this. If you need a playtest of a beta I'm sure I could get my friends at the [FF] servers to give it a run. Multi-play on a linux server, thats the real test.

Thanks for the comments Juim!

I agree with all your points too. Although funnily enough there IS a rope ladder on the starboard side, I was toying with the idea of restricting traffic on the port. I forgot to add an HP bonus in that zone.

The setting has been thorny ever since its inception, I was hoping I could BS the story line thusly; ship drifts into a rocky cove with a cliff, world freezes, world thaws. The holes in the hull are not the Titanic-rip I would have liked but my main focus outside is performance, and more performance. That explains the lack of a floor/horizon in the canyon too. Again I was actually thinking about removing some rocks here and there, and perhaps even the cliff; I am trying to keep my brush count as low as possible tho so more detail is a risk. Water I fear will be a nono.

LOL the night setting, yeah, I actually like it on the cordon compiles I've done without the light_env, more dramatic. But I find night maps frustrating to play so that will be a remix perhaps.

I have actually played this on my server with about 9, and it didnt crash, which is good. Thanks for the FF offer, I play there a bit and find it a tad below average for lag, because of the silly deathbeams I figure. So that would be good playtest, yes. I am so close to beta I think I'll just hang on though. :smile:

I think you're doing excellently with this map. Building a realistic representation of a real-world place is quite a challenge for gameplay and so far all the changes you did were smart and ultimately turned this shipshape into a fair layout.

I still see some issues. Some of the corridors seem redundant and confusing. Some doors are way too tight. But I can see this work out nicely, although perfect layout will never be this map's attraction.

I'm too confused about how the ship ended up so near to a rock formation. Or at least I'd find it more interesting/logical to have the ship frozen into a wall of ice and nothing but ice. I suggest replacing this wall:

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/563/dmshipshapea60000ae5.jpg

by an ice wall. I was thinking: Maybe you can take this wall's normal map (extract the VMT file from the source materials GFC file) which creates the pseudo-3D look and, instead of using the brown, rocky base-map, you use an ice-texture. So you use this map's normal mapping effect on one of the ice-textures that come with HL2. The result should be a simple shader that looks somewhat more satisfying than the existing ice/snow textures. I can help you out with that, if you want.

My second complaint regarding texturing is this one:

http://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dmshipshapea60002ji6.jpg

I think this texture is over-used in the inside. It looks kinda flat and repetitive. Try to get some variation in there.

This maps looks like it's only 1 or 2 releases away from a final version. It's definately above alpha-status. Great!

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Why snark works.

Thanks Reaper First off, the rock wall shot, holy cow! It looks absolutely NOTHING like that on my machine,this is at near top res on my card. I had no idea source textures had so many levels...The main reason I want to keep some rocks in there is for camo, the white combine guy might end up having an advantage otherwise. I do agree with your point, the cliff is an effort at optimizing mostly.

The interior texture is the closest thing I found in hl2 to a stud wall fake job. One of the major drawbacks in this design is that it can not mimic how a ship is really built, ie a steel skin over a rigid skeleton. Had I tried that it would sink for sure under engine load. The texture choice is a result of aesthetics plus trying to keep texture memory reasonably low; although now that I have custom snow in there I might as well make a custom interior as well...

I have found in a couple playtests that gameplay seems to revolve around 2 or 3 player encounters, and the real-sizing of the doors has not been a major pain yet. The corridors in the cargo holds are there mostly to trap with orb and xbow bounces, myself I hustle to that battery above the containers and then get out.

Anyway like I said I probably shouldn't have started this lol. But thanks again for the constructive commentary; more than once I've floundered in the seas of indecision on this voyage

Just about at the end of my rope with this one, so b1 is out.

I have concentrated efforts on performance optimizaton for this version, Source is known to suck at distance rendering. Some drawbacks to this that sharp eyes will notice include:

-very aggressive prop-fading and collision negation

-aggressive texture scale and lightmap stretching

-near-complete absence of decals to the detriment of visual appeal, the stains in the hold are not decals

-some props are non-dynamic by necessity, eg the crane hooks

-lack of certain details that are fundamental to marine architecture. This ship has no anchors, portholes, liferings, foremast, stair rails, deck vents, screw, crane control, coils of rope or chain, or even a master's wheel ( the foremast and anchors I am sad about ).

-Also, a ship is a skeleton with a steel skin; had I framed it with studs, beams and hull ribs etc it would not run at all I am sure. So there is a big hit on realism in my eyes there.

-The engine room is an exercise in artistic license, anybody who a has seen a real engine room will know there is no room to swing a cat in it. Similarly the bow section is a gross distortion of reality.

-The 3d skybox has no ocean/floor.

-The repackaged snow textures were necessary to overcome the friction modifier in Valve's versions.

This was compiled on:
AMD 64 3000+, 6600GT

This is an excellent map. It got better with every version and now it has a very polished feel to it.

I have only two specific complaints:

First, the top ladder on the cranes is impossible to reach for me. It seems like it is meant to be climbed but I just can't reach it without some crazy (and illogical) jump from the railing. Move the lower point of the func_usableladder a little lower to make this easier.

Secondly, the skybox looks weird without any kind of water. If it's a performance issue (and I keep telling you, IT ISN'T!) you could have at least a simple cubemap-shader without refraction/reflection effects. It should look as good anyway and it would fix the odd-looking emptiness in the skybox.

Otherwise the map is near-perfect. Doing a real-life themed map and doing it so detailed is such a hard task and what you delivered (although I'd still like to see how it playes on a fuller server) seems to have a surprisingly working layout and un-annoying flow. Some of the doorways are too tight and it seems a little big (with <6-8 players it could be a game of hide and seek) but other than that you did really, really well. If you have a part you're not happy with, feel free to cut or remove a few places. I think making it tighter could actually help the map's flow.

Did I ever mention how much I like the displacement-based boats? I'll do it now. Also replacing the pit-of-doom cliffs by a windy push-back is a very smart move.

About the performance issues... I agree that the map isn't exactly running fast. But the measures you mentioned are absolutely overkill! The engine doesn't care about decals. Overlays are another topic, but decals? You can have a hundered of them without seriously affecting FPS. Prop-fading and collision negation? Props have a low-poly LOD so you can have hundereds of them without slowing things down. Ragdolls are the only thing that could have a true impact on collision-based FPS losses but other than that... I doubt it's even noticable. Texture-scale and lightmap streching has no, and absolutely NO impact on source maps. OK, maybe 0.5 FPS for very big surfaces, but unlike HL1, it's completely irrelevant for performance.

And, I am talking about an Athlon XP 1800+ and a Geforce2 MX here, the system I learned how to optimize HL2DM maps on.

The only performance problem you have is the map's size. Even killbox maps have performance problems but I can tell you it's not because of their texture-scaling.

Add the anchor. Bring back the foremast. Compare FPS and see there's no difference. Talk to people who have slower system specs than you and I assure you, they will agree!

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Why snark works.

I've just had a run through with this latest version, and as Reaper47 says, it's awesome. It does seem a bit vacant in the interior at some points, but performance must be considered. I don't mind the doorways at all. Choke points are good for gameplay. my only suggestions would be to maybe get alittle more varied with the interior lighting. Some color would highlite the key areas IMO. And in the freight holds, a container maze of some sort would help seperate the exterior walkways. I also agree with Reap about the water.

This is shaping up to be a very amazing map.

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<div class="abouttext">Message submitted 42 minutes after original post:</b></div>
Well you two, many thanks for the respect; without your input this would be a lesser thing I am sure.

-the crane ladders I lifted above the deck in order to prevent inadvertent mounting. I never did try them low; I just thought a bit too far ahead perhaps. Ladders I always find a pain in this game. I will try lowering them and see what happens.

-The skybox thing in reality probably is a result of laziness, performance issues notwithstanding. There is a definite need for something, yes. Thinking back on my decision to leave it empty, I was considering a) custom skybox with an ice-like bottom or b) fooling around with fading horizons in the 3d box. Both of these details are new to me and at this point I'm on the downward slide of my learning curve!

-Gameplay I actually find frustrating to the way i play, lol. It is pretty funny when 4 or so converge, but yes, hide and seek happens with 4 or less on the map. The map really is too big for the state of the game today.

-I see your points about over-optimising Reaper, but at the moment I'm inclined to stick with my current MO. I actually find decals to be a bigger hit than you imply, as I have them turned off in my game I have noticed an average increase of around 10% in firefights. The sheer size of the visible sets here limits their effectiveness I think; if I put one, I have to put 200. So for the moment the sea snark is decal-free...Texture scaling is redundant, I agree, yet I was watching "lightmaps" in showbudget and I managed to cut their impact by 25%. Whether or not that translates to better performance was actually secondary to me; I am a compulsive tweaker of everything tweakable.

-Juim, I assume the vacancy you're mentioning is above the engine room. Again, I was nearing lag-zone with that engine; it has 48 models and 12 sounds. I was finding some bad pockets in and around that area so rather than lose the engine I was starting on lighting contrast. In which I agree with you, there could be a little more variation in that respect. In reality, the lighting in the cargo hold was a last-minute change to fit the texture change there.

-The way the cargo hold is laid out is a direct influence from overwatch; I didnt want major gravgun fights on the outside. I wanted to keep the side passages open to cball and xbow fire while being escapable at the same time.

So you guys, thanks again for your time! Nice to make acquaintance with mappers who play the game, as we know that it can be the most fun out there. HL2DM FTW !

SnarkPower made this page in 0.154 seconds
All site content ? Leperous & respective owners, 2002-2005

Hey!.........maker, ...ahem.

There was a "new" map playtest on the [FF] server last night, and yours was one of them. The general consensus was , of course, "awe" and a very many oohs!, and what have you. (There was even a discussion about whether or not you had a nautical background). And in the end, the group vote was an overwhelming "YES". So this means that your map will be in the next cycle unless you have any reservations about that, or a newer version you'd like used. Congrats, the map played very well on the Linux server.

The only negative comments I heard, (If you can call them negative) were:
one or two of, "Man this is a big map!, gonna need alot of players to keep it fun".
and:
"I can't hear people on the ladders so they can sneak up on me!".
I don't know if there's an appropriate sound you could associate with the little ladder lift thingies, but it does deserve minor consideration I suppose.
All in all it was a great playtest.
Nice job mate.

Good to hear this, Juim. Thanks for the post!

I have been fully expecting reservations on the map's size. It is the chief weakness. For that reason there will likely be no new versions for awhile, though I am taking all suggestions into consideration ( One idea I came up with is to crush the cliff against the port side, forcing players onto the deck at either end. The ladder noise thing I hadn't foreseen, I will try some low-cpu solutions ).

LOL I am so glad I can take a break from that nonexistent place. Hopefully will bump into you on the FF sometime soon :smile:

Well I was just thinking. You know, there comes a time in every maps development, when you have to decide whats best for maximum playability. You have to look at whats important to others as well as yourself. I personally have scrapped major parts of previous maps due to size/performance constraints. Consider if you will, how important it is to have this vast snowy canyon of displacements and custom materials surrounding the ship. What if it were, say, a dry dock of some sort?. A completely believable environment with a more uniform brush based architecture would smooth out the FPS and explain the closed area. Just off the top of my head of course. Thats it for now, you may now return to mapping. :rolleyes:

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<div class="abouttext">Message submitted 38 minutes after original post:</b></div>
Hehe, in actuality this thing started out in a drydock concept! I came across some major stumbling blocks with that though:

-The aft section with the complex brushes at one point was world brushwork. Portal flow was hitting 45 min just from that area alone. So I had to box it in and func_detail it, hence burying it in substance

• The "bulb", at the prow, was becoming a huge problem to build, I just ran out of patience with it. example

• I ditched the drydock concept after visiting a local one here. There is just far too much detail in a place like that! Scaffolding, cranes, supports, buildings, tools, endless stuff.

Other concepts I had considered before the ill-fated canal experiment: Pasha bulker shipbreaking shipbreaking story/url] [url=http://www.edwardburtynsky.com/WORKS/Ships/Shipbreaking/Shipbreaking_04.jpg]image image image

All striking images but there is no concept that will truly reduce this map's apparent size. So for now she sits in the ice awaiting the thaw.

Nice! Reminds me of the early, pre-release HL2 screens. I never understood why they shortened the dried-out seabed concept.

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Why snark works.

Just thought you could be interested:

Dead Industrial-Era Ships Sink in Arctic Ice

Did you already post this? If yes, I'm sorry, I didn't check. :heee:

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Why snark works.

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<div class="abouttext">Message submitted 5 minutes after original post:</b></div>
Wow! Holy crap, nice find!

I wish I'd known then ....That first shot is the exact image in my mind's eye, but imagine the vertices ::::O

I lived in Haida Gwaii for awhile , there was a shipwreck on a deserted 5-mile sandy beach we would visit.

http://www.queencharlotteislandseh.com/parks/pesuta/index.htm

not a very good shot but it was spooooky in real life.

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://lh3.google.com/_0GTguVJZdVU/RRrafk6eABI/AAAAAAAAABQ/moDiX0SYqBA/s800/vrak-2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ArmWI1VKBXXjdVDZy9L-pw&h=533&w=800&sz=89&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=DyZcfaSUJfXTKM:&tbnh=95&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpesuta%2Bshipwreck%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DG

..trying to "add chapter" but for the life of me I can't find the link...so...

I fooled around with concept a bit. It's hard to tell from the screens but the
outside routes over the snow do not connect fore and aft together now.
There will be an impassable canyon at 90 deg to midships, and I've been trying to come up with better displacements all around ( also not in shots,
because they're gross ).
So the only routes from end to end will be above or below decks, and not off the ship.

[img=http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/3834/dmshipshapev250021de1.th.jpg]
[img=http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/9821/dmshipshapev250022gh8.th.jpg]
[img=http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/909/dmshipshapev250025on9.th.jpg]
[img=http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/3104/dmshipshapev250027ic0.th.jpg]

Cool, for a second, I thought this was on the moon, than I realized that the moon was in the sky in the first screenshot :razz:

That's a very drastic change you've made there, did you update the download link so I can check it out?

Oh, and the new chapter button for memory is somewhere at the top.

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Aaron's Stuff

Hey Aaron, yeah going for some kind of arctic icefield thing. I'm thinking about making the ship nuclear-powered, would explain the electrical being on, though there's not many images of a ship's nuclear power plant out there to reference.

Like I said before, the backstory seems fishy, perhaps something along these lines:

climate change-self-powered ship becomes icebound-used as distant early warning / safe house by rebel outfit.

I always said this would make an excellent night time map. I like the changes so far. Download soon?

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Quote from Nietzsche....God is dead
Quote from God....Nietzsche is dead

Yes the effect is much more dramatic in a dark setting, for sure. Lots of challenges cropping up in the lighting department, but nothing compared to my attempts at retooling the end zones' displacements...therefore a DL is still many hours away I fear. I'm hoping mid-Septemberish perhaps. Thanks for looking!

I'm digging the new skybox, is it custom? I'm not sure what that greenish glow is, but I like it.

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o

Hey thanks Baron. It is my first attempt at a custom skybox, yes. Of course the moon distorts the more you turn away from it but that's unavoidable as far as I can see, using a sun sprite causes other anomalies. The green glow is the beginnings of an aurora effect, I'm trying to figure out a way to have an intermittent animation in it somehow, perhaps a couple of fade in-fade out func_brushes...

Having said that, I have not done anything on it the past month :razz: