Further memory problems le sigh..

Further memory problems le sigh..

Re: Further memory problems le sigh.. Posted by half-dude on Tue Nov 11th 2008 at 10:04pm
half-dude
580 posts
Posted 2008-11-11 10:04pm
580 posts 76 snarkmarks Registered: Aug 30th 2003 Occupation: male Location: WH
Hey guys, it's me again. <: D

I know you guys are probably getting tired of me asking computer questions to you guys, sorry bout that. But you just seem very knowlegable. I still haven't been able to find out why my computer only sees 2.3 Gigs of RAM in my PC when I have 4 Gigs... So if I'm going to have to live with that jip I'd like to at least take advantage of the memory it DOES see you know?

I just had to act when I noticed this. I usually do stuff while my comp starts up, but today I was watching the POST. I noticed that it showed my DDR800 as "single channel" when I'm pretty dang sure I got dual channel memory.. This awakens other questions I had when trying to have the rest of my 4 Gigs show up. Those questions were what slots do I put the two sticks in out of the four available? I looked at my mobo's manual and it's
answer is very cryptic to me... I put it up here:

http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=memoryzr9.jpg

Right now I have my two sticks in my motherboard, one in slot 1 and one in slot 3... This probably isn't right 9.9... But that's what I took "Channel 0 DDR2_1, DDR2_3" as... I guess now that my problem is dual channel I want to have one stick in slot 1 and one in slot 2 right? So one's in Channel zero and the other in Channel one?...

Just so I dont look like a total idiot for ignoring that obvious table on the left SHOWING that for two sticks put them in slot one and two, I originally had them like that. I only changed it to see if I could get the computer to see all 4 Gigs.l.This is probably pretty easy stuff for you guys, so could you offer me your knowledge?
Re: Further memory problems le sigh.. Posted by larchy on Wed Nov 12th 2008 at 8:31am
larchy
496 posts
Posted 2008-11-12 8:31am
larchy
fluffy teim
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496 posts 87 snarkmarks Registered: Jan 14th 2008 Occupation: kitten fluffer Location: UK
There are two ways your processor can access devices attached to the rest of the system, either through ports or through memory mapped input output (MMIO). Everything uses MMIO because ports are sucky.

A 32bit system has 2^32 numbers to play with, which gives it 4GiB of numbers (or 'address space') to map different MMIO devices to.

Anything attached to your system will take up some of this available address space. Normally this isn't much of an issue because the address space used by, say, your ethernet controller is fairly small. However this situation starts to change once you start putting in graphics cards with huge amounts of RAM. The card takes up part of the address space, but it gets complicated because not all the address space gets mapped to physical RAM. A GeForce GTX280, which has 1GiB of RAM, for example will map 256MiB of address space, as will most modern 512MiB high-end cards.

Devices get assigned address space first, and your RAM gets assigned to what is left over. If your available RAM exceeds the left over address space therefore, it 'vanishes', leaving you with the ~3.2GB problem with 4GB physically installed on a 32bit OS.

All current 32bit x86 processors actually support 36bit addressing. Indeed, run 32bit Windows XP prior to SP2, or 32bit Windows Server 2008 Datacenter (which supports up to 64GiB) and they will happily show you more than 4GiB RAM if you have more than that installed.

In fact you're probably running with PAE enabled in Windows anyway without knowing it. If you don't have "/noexecute=disable" in your boot.ini then PAE will be enabled. This is because a larger address space is required for processors to be able to use 'no execute', and the NX-bit is obviously required for DEP which has been present in XP since SP2 and is in all versions of Vista.

The reason your can't get 32bit Windows to show more than 4GiB of RAM is because MS had to artificially limit it, starting with XP SP2. This is because certain companies (nVidia) couldn't write drivers that could cope with an expanded address space. MS therefore simply limited the address space Windows could use.

Each application can only access 2GiB of virtual address space anyway (apps don't address RAM directly, they use v.a.s, and so some of the pages could be in RAM, some might be in the swap file etc). The OS can't assign any more than that, but tbh it would be extremely unlikely for any app to use anywhere near that amount of address space anyway. It is possible for something like Photoshop to push this limit with massive files and complex operations - 36bit addressing wouldn't help there unless the application was developed to use Address Windowing Extensions (AWE) to take advantage of extra address space, and you ran the /3GB switch to enable Windows to assign more than 2GiB virtual address space to the app (which has its own performance tradeoff for the rest of the system as it causes the TLB to be continually flushed).

There is also some simplication above, as not all the 'lost' RAM is lost for system I/O. Almost 1GB gets taken up by the PFN database, which is where the memory manager keeps track of all open pages. The rest of the 2GiB virtual space for the OS itself is all that remains to map the kernel, device drivers etc.

Still, 2.3GiB is rather low. You probably have a feature in your BIOS setup set incorrectly - look for something called "memory remap" or similar, as this can cause 32bit XP to lose even more RAM.

The solution to all this is to install a 64bit operating system.
You do not have dual channel RAM - technically there is no such thing.

What you probably have is a dual channel memory controller, which is a chip on your motherboard.

If a board has, say, 4 DIMM slots and a dual channel MCH then two slots will be channel A, two channel B.

If you populate the channel A slots but not the channel B slots then obviously the MCH only has a single channel to work with.

So yes, you are correct in your thinking - you need to move one of your DIMMs into a different slot. The Chinglish motherboard manuals are often not terribly clear :)
Re: Further memory problems le sigh.. Posted by fishy on Wed Nov 12th 2008 at 9:25pm
fishy
2623 posts
Posted 2008-11-12 9:25pm
fishy
member
2623 posts 1476 snarkmarks Registered: Sep 7th 2003 Location: glasgow
I don't know much about the technical issues involved, to the extent that most of Larchy's post is as good as gibberish to me. Though I do know that dual channel memory had to be enabled somewhere in my bios before it would work. Not that it seemed to make any difference to how my system performed.
Re: Further memory problems le sigh.. Posted by omegaslayer on Fri Nov 14th 2008 at 7:16am
omegaslayer
2481 posts
Posted 2008-11-14 7:16am
2481 posts 595 snarkmarks Registered: Jan 16th 2004 Occupation: Sr. DevOPS Engineer Location: Seattle, WA
What OS are you running? How many devices do you have plugged in? What motherboard model do you have?

Larchy pretty much gave a whole information dump about 32/64 bit addressing. 2.2Gigs does sound a little low to me too (although it should be noted that its really ~3.2 gigs that 32 bit OS's recognize). Some other things to try:
1) Run memtest86+ to see if you have good RAM, for some reason your Mobo might be cutting out RAM that fails the quick memory test BIOS does.
2) Set your pagefile to a bigger size. It might be that XP is setting the size of physical memory based off of your page file - although this is unlikely, after repairing computers for a year I've seen this happen once or twice.

As for dual channel stuff this has nothing to do with windows seeing RAM or not. It just means place two exactly like RAM chips in slots 0 and 2 and two exactly like RAM chips in slots 1 and 3. So it will effectively look like this A0|B1|||A2|B3 (where A and B are two different types of RAM modules)
Re: Further memory problems le sigh.. Posted by larchy on Fri Nov 14th 2008 at 7:32pm
larchy
496 posts
Posted 2008-11-14 7:32pm
larchy
fluffy teim
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496 posts 87 snarkmarks Registered: Jan 14th 2008 Occupation: kitten fluffer Location: UK
omegaslayer said:
It might be that XP is setting the size of physical memory based off of your page file
Could you reference this please? ...as it makes no sense to me at all.
Re: Further memory problems le sigh.. Posted by omegaslayer on Sat Nov 15th 2008 at 3:29am
omegaslayer
2481 posts
Posted 2008-11-15 3:29am
2481 posts 595 snarkmarks Registered: Jan 16th 2004 Occupation: Sr. DevOPS Engineer Location: Seattle, WA
"larchy" said:
omegaslayer said:
It might be that XP is setting the size of physical memory based off of your page file
Could you reference this please? ...as it makes no sense to me at all.
I know! It makes NO sense at all! But I've seen it on a couple computers where increasing the page file also somehow magically increased the ammount of physical memory windows saw! I can't reference it because its just based off of my experience working as a PC tech for ~1 year at circuit city (Please no comments on their market ;P). Don't ask me why, it just worked twice.
Re: Further memory problems le sigh.. Posted by larchy on Sat Nov 15th 2008 at 8:35am
larchy
496 posts
Posted 2008-11-15 8:35am
larchy
fluffy teim
super admin
496 posts 87 snarkmarks Registered: Jan 14th 2008 Occupation: kitten fluffer Location: UK
Odd, sounds like some sort of bug.

By default SP2+ Windows XP & Vista set their pagefiles to 2-4GB min/max size, whereas it should really be set to "let windows manage swap file size" anyway.

I think its more likely gonna be due to memory remap in the BIOS tbh... but anyway, whatever works.