Another tid bit

<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Five Fates hath the human world,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></I>

<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Five pillars the corporeal mould.<o:p></o:p></I>

<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Health to blight; Peace to crush<o:p></o:p></I>

<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Wealth to ruin; Love to break<o:p></o:p></I>

<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Life kills all.<o:p></o:p></I>

<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">One mind hath the human soul,<o:p></o:p></I>

<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">One entity the Fates befoul.<o:p></o:p></I>

<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Thought above; mortal below<o:p></o:p></I>

<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Drought of Faith; miasma slow<o:p></o:p></I>

<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Reason conquers all.</I>

It may well be completly horrible, but I need somthing of the sort for the novel I am writing. any help would be apreciated. I am aware that there are places where it does not rhyme but looks like maybe it should. that is intentional. I feel that nothing is more trite than a verse that stretches too far for a rhyme.

disclaimer I'm not actualy an atheist, no matter how that sounds.

Makes me think of "The Lord of the Rings" (One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them.....) and Susan Cooper's prophetic verses in the "The Dark is Rising" series.

It's difficult to recommend any ideas without knowing what role this poem has for your novel. I am going to do my best based on raw guesswork, so apologies if I miss the point totally! I'll be deliberately harsh since charitable comments won't assist you. I proceed line-by-line:

If you're worried about "the cheesiness factor", I'd recommend finding alternatives to hath. I love archaic language, but it can end up sounding a bit silly in the wrong context. Possibilities:

<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Five Fates for the human world,</I>

<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Five Fates of the human world,</I>


[size=16][color=white]Five Fates rule the human world,


[size=16][color=white]Five Fates hold the human world,

Five fates fetter the human world,

Five fates bind the human world,[/color][/size][/color][/size]

Personally I like "fetter" best, since I'm a sucker for alliteration :biggrin:

In the next line, is "mould" supposed to be a noun or a verb? If it's meant to be a noun (as in, the mould that grows on food), then I don't know what the sentence means. That said, there might be a special meaning for your story (c.f. the Susan Cooper riddles). Otherwise....

My guess is that it's a verb, which means you are committing the very sin you call trite: forcing a rhyme! Actually, there's one thing worse than this: forcing a half-rhyme, which is what you've done here. The reason I say forcing is that the natural word order would be, "Five pillars mould the corporeal" (subject - verb - object). Actually, although "the corporeal" could be used as an abstract noun (as you have), "corporeal" is really an adjective. It feels to me like this line would be better rewritten as "Five pillars mould [the] corporeal X", where X is some noun. Or better yet, change "mould" as well - it seems an odd action for a pillar to do. Afraid I can't think of anything good right now, though something might pop into my head at random later on.

You can substitute for "hath" again, but the line "One entity the Fates befoul" is okay despite being a half-rhyme, because it's not forced like the previous one.

By the way, it wouldn't take much tweaking to turn this poem into perfect septameter, with two breaks ("Life kills all" and "Reason conquers all"). Just a thought, depending on how rhythmical you want it.

Maybe more later, but for now I should say that it's pretty good already. My ideas are just possible tweaks.

Five are the Fates of God's design,

Five are the Fates of man and kind;

Health to curse him unto disease;

Peace to damn him to life of unease;

Wealth unto ruin, love unto sorrow,

Life gives for a day and takes for the morrow.



But man was wrought with soul and mind;

though e'er he loses, and never to find,

He takes one gift that can never be taken,

'ere a long night falls and the tree-roots are shaken,



Man took for him Wit, Power, and Reason,

and left the Five Fates that were made for him.

Eek, that's my try.

Well, I can see I need to study this a bit more since I've no idea what a septameter is. Thanks very much for the input.

By "mould" I meant "form", which I guess is the word I should have used. The five pillers being a property of the "corporeal form".

the verse is meant to be a sort of catechism for an atheistic cult. It is suposed to convey their contempt for the predominant religion and their near deifacation of rational thought and amassed knowlage.

I like Cass's version, unfortunatly in my world the Fates are the gods.

Okay, I'm having another go making the best of the information I could dig up on the net. I'm trying to match rythem between lines. The problem is, I can't decide if single syllable words are stressed or not! or is my confusion because it depends on context? within multisyllabic words I have no problem, but little things like, "one" and "the" are tripping me up.

Edit: trying again. I find that rhyme is easier than rythem, or maybe I just find rythem in the rhym... here is my second attempt.

<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Five Fates for the human norm,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></I>

<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Five piers of the carnal form.<o:p></o:p></I>

<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Health to blight; Peace to shake<o:p></o:p></I>

<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Wealth to ruin; Love to break<o:p></o:p></I>

<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Life kills all.<o:p></o:p></I>

<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">One mind shapes the human soul,<o:p></o:p></I>

<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">One entity the Fates control.<o:p></o:p></I>

<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Thought on high; mortal low<o:p></o:p></I>

<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Drought of Faith; venom slow<o:p></o:p></I>

<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Reason conquers all.<o:p></o:p></I>

<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><o:p></o:p></I>

I rather like Cassius' version too, even if it may not be suitable for your purpose :smile:

The new version is much better, in my opinion. It gets the catechistic message and mood across without sounding too hammy.

Given your intended meaning, there was nothing wrong with "corporeal mould" except the odd grammatical structure (it just seemed hard to guess the meaning, because it wan't a conventional structure).

<digression>

"Septameter" just means "seven syllables per line". There are three main tools for creating rhythm [hey, is that the only English word with no vowels??]:

• Rhyme
• Number of syllables
• Syllabic stress

Note that rhyme doesn't need to be at the end of a line. I'm very fond of mid-line rhymes myself (especially when they alternate with end-line rhymes). For example:

Do you depart? Then come back soon; I wait
In darkness where you leave my sightless start.
Will you return? Then I may live; give straight
Some breath, the which I may inspiring burn.

Together, the number of syllables and the syllabic stress form the meter. It gets a bit confusing because pentameter almost always means "10 syllables a line": iambic pentameter is 5 lots of rising feet (duh-DUH / duh-DUH / duh-DUH / duh-DUH / duh-DUH), where each foot is 2 syllables. But septameter and octameter are often used to refer to 7 and 8 syllable lines (although they could refer to 14 and 16 syllable lines).

You have naturally written in a meter that approximates trochaic septameter. That is: seven syllables, a falling stress from the first pair (DUH-duh / DUH-duh.....). This form can create an air of mystery or ceremony, which is ideal for your purpose. For example, Shakespeare uses trochaic sept/octameter in the "casement scrolls" of the Merchant of Venice.

</digression>

Anyway, I much prefer the new version :smile: You could try to make it perfect septameter, but I really don't think it's necessary - I feel you have the right rhythm anyway, and it no longer seems contrived (except possibly "norm", but that's nit-picking). Well done!

Syzygy doesn't have any :razz:

Thanks Gollum. Maybe when I need another one it won't take me all day :smile:

Tryst, too, and glycyl. Come on, gollum, I thought better of ya :razz:

hides face in shame.....and the really embarrassing thing is, I don't know what "glycyl" means. Is it a family of chemical compounds?

Don't worry TB - sometimes I write a complete poem in 15 minutes, but other times they take shape over months. You can't schedule a muse :heee:

actually, if you dig into it, the rule goes something like, "a,e i, o, u, and sometimes "y"....so actually, they DO have a vowel..... :smile:

...or has said rule changed since i was in school??....

Doc Brass.. :dodgy:

and as per merriam-websters...

Main Entry: gly?cyl
Pronunciation: <TT>'glI-s&l</TT>
Function: noun
Date: 1901
: the univalent acyl radical NH<SUB>2</SUB>CH<SUB>2</SUB>CO - of glycine </FORM>

My favourite is

"Ash nazg durbatuluk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatuluk agh burzum-ishi krimpatol"

Which in the common tongue (English) is:

"One Ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them"

I just cannot get enough of Tolkien. The day I die I won't of read the Lord of the Rings enough times to satify my i[color=white]nsatiable [/color]appitite for Middle Earth.

oh, and btw.....TB, i think you have a helluva talent there....i couldnt write anything coming close to what you fellas have projected here....Bravo! :smile: ....and to the rest of ya's, well done gents... :wink:

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

btw again TB, how the novel coming along, in general?

Well, "officially" the only vowels are "a, e, i, o, u". But it's pretty arbitrary, as "y" often sounds the same as "i".

Thanks Brasso, it's nice to have ones work apreciated, and it somehow means more in the wonderfully honest environment we have here.

Gollum: do the feet always consist of two syllables, or is a foot any repeating pattern of syllables?

example:Du da da Du da da

would the foot in that case be three syllables?

Matt: TBH I don't think that well of tolkine. they are great storeis, sure, but he drowns the reader in detail, and goes into long pointless digressions that have very little to do with the narrative at hand. I supose this is a mtter of personal taste, but I feel that the author should be able to paint a picture in your mind without blugoning you with it.

now dammit mikee, im not THAT friggin old.... well maybe... and its not that i dont believe ya, but that rule was one of the few i remembered being drilled into my head since i can remember....and yes, its been a long time sir... :heee: if you could show me something that would satiate my curiosity, id be much abliged... :wink:

woot! i love getting knowledge....

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

woot! i love getting knowledge....

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

Here's some knowledge : Obliged :wink:

piss off ya silly f**ker.... wait till i start nit pickin' yer irish ass.... :heee:

Doc B... :dodgy:

Dr Brasso said:
piss off ya silly f**ker.... wait till i start nit pickin' yer irish ass.... :heee:

Doc B... :dodgy:

That is a really, really, disturbing image :eek:

About vowels - I'm not sure who to quote or to what purpose. There are simply two established senses of "vowel". One sense is "this is a vowel sound", and distinuishes vowels as the sounds made when the mouth is left open and unobstructed during speech. The other sense is a formal classification of vowels in terms of which letters tend to make vowel sounds - "this letter is a vowel". Conventionally only "a,e,i,o,u" count as vowels here, probably because they (almost?) always produce a vowel sound whereas "y" often does not. Anyway, consult your favourite dictionary for an authoritative view :smile:

TB - feet are most often 2 syllables (an iamb or a trochee), but they can be pretty much any number. The only other common length is 3 syllables. It's not a precise system, since obviously it consists of dividing up a sentence into units on the basis of patterns of spoken stress and is open to interpretation. Also, as I've said before, it doesn't categorise lines with an odd number of syllables very neatly.

The main types of 3-syllable feet are anapests (duh-duh-DUH) and dactyls (DUH-duh-duh). Examples of words with these stresses:

[Anapest] intercede

[Dactyl] holiday

Change 'God' to 'world' in the first line and mess a bit with the last line, and I'd say mine would fit.

Gollum, we don't take kindly to intelligence here

Nah, Doc- I remember that little saying too. I think they put that little clause in there just so little pissant kids wouldnt' be all like "But what about 'by' or 'my'- those worlds have no vowels. Teacher lies, teacher lies!"

What's really weird are the english words that have a Q and not a u following it.

Like (spelling may be a bit off on some of these, as they are truly weird):

Qawwali, Iraq (obvious one), Tsaddiqim etc. They rule for scrabble players- kinda why I know 'em. I hate the freaking q.