fishy3dm

just a short post this time. i dont really have the motivation to write out the same stuff that i already lost twice today.

this was my first attemp at making a dm map, and ended up getting shelved when the size of the layout started confusing me. i couldn't visualise what was connected to where, so i took a break from it.if i remember right, the r's were causing me some concerns too, but i've been working on them, and they're almost reasonable now.

there's a list of things i want to attend to, and i'm pretty sure you guys will give me some more, but what i really need is some sort of coherent theme that can tie the various parts of the map together. if i come up with something decent, i might even make this an entry to the competition. [damn you Reno, this could easily have been a military storage facility ] but strong theme or not, once i come up with one i can start on filling some of the empty rooms, and giving 'downstairs' a makeover.

even though this was made with dm in mind, the layout may not be ideal. i'd be interested to hear if anyone thinks it would be more suited for some other mod.

as said in the maps description, people with dusty old installs may not see the trees rendered properly. sorry 'bout that. :sad:

unzipping to either your valve/ or tfc/ folder should work. (there's an info_tf_detect in there too, so i could use my amx installation, which is only set up to work on tfc)

ok, now i am confused, is this an HLDM map, or a DoD map, cause i cannot get the zip to install into steam correctly :sad:

[edit] OK, its an HLDM map..

wipes brow

will post soonish

it's not a DoD map. it has very few mod specific entities, but it will work in either tfc or standard hl.

unzip it to SteamApps/U@yourmail/half-life/valve and startup a server, selecting fishy3dm_c3 as the map to play.

alternatively, you can unzip it to SteamApps/U@yourmail/team fortress classic/tfc

they should both work fine.

well, i assume the file structure is sound, but after my first DoD failure, i opted to place the files myself.. all is well on that now, but... this map is very new, i need to be able to noclip around.. does anyone know how to accomplish this via steam???

[edit] solved it.. you must begin via the "start/run" menu..

C:SteamSteam.exe -silent -applaunch 70 -dev -console +map fishy3dm_c3

if anyone else is interested, this is the procedure

ah, you beat me to it.

Insert obligatory warning message here:

First off Fish, i would like to say, for all the faults i saw, i saw so much more potential, this map has the makings of a great map, in fact it has the makings of about 4 great maps .. you seem to have fallen into the n00b trap of, your vision exceeds your capability to complete.. seriously, i am not even sure that i found everything this map has to offer, its just so freakin huge :biggrin: ..
its as if, you attempted to recreate an entire city, instead of a DM map... if it is possible, i would try hard to subdivide it into more manageable maps, and in this way, make it less of a burden on you..

anyways, lets see how badly i can discourage you today.. as usual i will mostly focus on what i feel needs fixed.. hopefully other sets of eyes will follow suit.. as i said, i see so much potential, i would like to see some portion of this map completed :smile:


this walkway, extends behind me between the two buildings.. it looks OK behind me, but the ledge here looks wrong.. you need some sort of a transition, about where i am standing i suppose.. possible a guardrail also



light 1 looks great, light 2 looks out of theme/character to the map


another one of those no fuel consuming fires my advice, reduce the fire to a slow trickle, and put some smut on them


dark, so dark that i cannot even remember why i took the screen shot.. perhaps its only dark, but i honestly cannot recall


door opens backward, not a crime, but funny none the less :smile:


didn't really notice, till i got here, but those lights are really huge, when compared to the tunnel beneath.. the tunnel, is of normal dimensions, so comparing it to the light, gives you some notion of the sizes involved


the large open areas, have much potential, for some quality fragging, but the dim lights.. i know its night, but didn't anyone pay their electric bill


more dark, and again, i cannot recall why i took the shot.. possibly only due to the dark :sad:


OOppss wrong render mode


yup its dark again, but in this screen i remember.. its a very long line of sight, and almost nothing to account for the 600+ r_speeds.. i found many long sight lines throughout this map.. another common malady of the inexperienced mapper.


this door is much to small for a fast getaway, and leads to a hole.. nothing more.. yet i assume :smile:


i may not have mentioned this yet, but the plant life throughout this map is superb.. its actually the highpoint IMO.. they alone set the atmosphere.. i prolly didn't get enuff examples of what i mean, but the plants none the less make this map worth looking through..


any time you fall down steps, or a ramp, it is too steep, these steps are much to steep IMO


i know its not apparent from the screen shot, yeah cause its too dark, but i actually favored this area best.. i like the architecture, and it is one of the reasons i feel the map needs finished, most time i just write off a map this big, cause i know that most times a new mapper will be overwhelmed, once someone more experienced, begins pointing out the shortfalls in their hard work.. but seriously, i think this map can be fixed.. and architecture like this area is my proof :smile:


and then fishy said "LET THERE BE LIGHT" and there was light.. isn't playing god just wonderful.. :smile:


another very interesting area.. has some vertical potential..


now i am confused, i know the map compiled, the light variations mostly tell me so, but how did this HOM get here?? its not a hole, so is it possibly an invalid solid? or maybe a null texture??


the entrance leading to the HOM


endless stairwells, almost added IMO just to connect the over sized map together with... large, or overlarge maps always suffer from connectivity issues, and without these endless halls and stairwells you couldn't get from place to place..
IMO if you must build an endless corridor, its a sure sigh, you either built it to large, or you planned your connectivity wrong beforehand.


wrong render again :smile:


a very,very long corredor


this area, seems an entirely different theme, and would make the beginning of a totally different map.. combining the two, needlessly increased the maps dimensions.. its not by any means, a bad area, its just not needed to the map above ground.


more of that awesome architecture.. don't misunderstand, i have seen better, but not usually from so new a mapper.. very nice indeed


an alcove of crates :sad:


another endless hallway, i assume.. its to dark and i cannot recall


more of that secondary theme.. this area would go so well, in a separate map.. sadly, all it does here is bloat the map..

as i already stated, i see so much potential.. i hope the author takes it to heart and subdivides this map a bit.. it sure would be a waste to scrap it now..

nice job fish :biggrin:

cheers Orph. that was relatively painless compared to some that i've seen.
i'll try not to lose track of the pic numbers as i make my excuses.
pic 1. i've been thinking about some plants in pots there
pic 2+3. i really should have more lights pre-fabbed
pic 4. i was never 100% about that fire
pic 5. as with some other areas, the texlight that i used there had its values lowered in my rad file a few weeks ago. i'd forgoten all about it. the next compile should show some improvement.
pic 6. good spot. i never noticed that before. possibly 'cause i always used the window.
pic 7. the oversized light. maybe if i moved it further up the wall, the size wouldn't be so noticable.
pic 8. the area that the ledge in pic 1 overlooks. possibly getting some park benches and low level lighting.
pic 9. it's a big dark patch on the wall. there's a rock splitting the face of the wall, and borking the lighting.
pic10. hmph, /me bad
pic11. i'm running out of option to reduce r's in that corner of the map. just outside that window is a fairly large area.
pic12. it was originaly a ladder to the level below, but when i added the ladder/rope thingy, i blocked off the exit to the lower level, with a view to extending the ladder down into one of the underground areas.
pic13. cheers. i'm still not convinced that the trees are the finished article yet, but they do seem to hold their shape quite well.
pic14. old stairways into cellers are usually quite steep. slowing to a walk is normally a good idea when trying to decend them.
pic15. thats only the first basement level, or maybe even street level with some of the map. i'm seriously considering what you said about splitting the map up, but there are a few basement areas i'd like to save, so that one would probably stay.
pic16. the area that i'm least happy with atm. i dont see it staying this way through the next compile.
pic17. i should probably make the elevator work.
pic18. it's null textured.
pic19. just for some extra deapth.
pic20. i'd planned on leaving plenty of grens on/near those stairs. the stairs themselves are decent protection from bullets etc, but grens can get lobbed through the slats. but your right about how its only there to join bits together.
pic21. again, hmph
pic22. every time i see that tunnel i promise that i'll put some alcoves in it, for weapons placements. but tbh, it feels like a chore.
pic23. there's an underwater tunnel at 'thin' end of that cave. it takes you into the sewers from the other side, as well as accessing some other routes. there were enough long hallways, so i wanted something a bit more open. if the map does get chopped, this is an area that will go.
pic24. an area that i'd like to keep
pic25. awww. thems the only crates in the whole map. almost. they're there for access, btw.
pic26. lighting, as you can see, isn't my strong point.
pic27. i feel there's something very flat about that area. maybe it's just the lighting, but it's an area i'd be willing to lose should i go with the suggestion of cutting the map up.
i'll need to think some more on that. in a way it would feel like a relief to scrap the sewers/caves/tunnels

thanks for taking the time Orph. much appreciated.

cool, i am satisfied if you are.. when i saw you come and go so fast, i thought "uh-oh" i did it again..

usually only the mad leave so fast..

be good :smile:

hehe, after my experience with the snarkpits post-eater today, i thought it wise to copy and paste from notepad.

fishy said:
hehe, after my experience with the snarkpits post-eater today, i thought it wise to copy and paste from notepad.

you think "I" trusted?? i wrote your critique via notepad myself.. was no way i was entrusting 26 photo's to a message window that sends text to the ether

I really get the impression that there are 2 maps there. One is very mediterranean with an Italian-esque feel. And the other is some dank US big-city subway/sewer circut kind of theme. The images seem either really impressive or really bland. It's all a balance I suppose.

bloomin' heck thats the biggest map and critique i've seen on SP :biggrin:

IMO it is far too big and complex for multiplayer, it'll work better as a non-linear single player level. If you're sticking mith MP then i would only use the best looking bits - buildings, sewer sections with vaulted ceilings and the empty room between sewer/ground level with vaulted ceilings - that could be made into a wine cellar.

The overall style was ok and i didn't notice too much of a clash between industrial/mediterranean, you get modern bits tacked onto old buildings in Italy anwyay.

Nice lookin' trees, some detail touches and hedges which i'm gonna steal for one of my maps :smile:

.

strange you should mention a wine cellar. i'd all but decided to turn the whole map into some sort of big wine factory. i could put some sort of fish-head juice extraction machine in one of the empty buildings to provide the secret ingredient for the wine. :biggrin:

i already made a start on some of it.

looks good. nothing too thrilling but its presented well. The barrels are very realistic looking.

i'd all but decided to turn the whole map into some sort of big wine factory. i could put some sort of fish-head juice extraction machine in one of the empty buildings

heh, it just felt like a wine cellar type of room. Nice idea about turning it into a wine factory, it'll give the map a coherent theme.

Fish heads, yuck ! use anti-freeze, its more classy :smile:

Make it darker in the cellar.

hehe, yer Myrk, it's really a bit darker in there than the pic suggests. i used some contrast balance to make it a little easier to see.

now to make some spiders webs. :smile:

no spiders webs yet, but some bumpage with new screens instead. i'll try to figure out what resources i've used, and pack them together for upload.

now where did i put resgen?.........

I really like the staircase in the last pic, but the texture is so blurry and undefined compared to the rest of the area. Try and find a more detailed grain/wood texture?

Gorbachev said:
I really like the staircase in the last pic, but the texture is so blurry and undefined compared to the rest of the area. Try and find a more detailed grain/wood texture?

i agree. and i'll even try to apply the grain in the right direction when i do. :rolleyes:

the last incarnation of this map was described by Orph as being a bit 'bloated'. i think he hit the nail right on the head with that one. so i got rid of most of the underground areas, except for a cellar or two, and the layout is now a lot more managable.

new zip now available from the maps profile page. comments and crits welcome.

:smile:

Without downloading it, it looks like a huge improvement interesting-ness and textures wise. The pipes in the second shot look superb.

i'd forgotten just how big this map was, the changes seem to have paid off as its a lot easier to get around than the old version.



1 - theres a clipping problem on those stairs

2 - barrels are the only furniture in the cellar, could do with something else to add variation.

3 - nice lighting pools.

Suggestion - put some lit Exit signs above the doorway and stairs to make them easier to pick out.



1 - door origin brush is borked

2 - too dark around the truck

3 - too dark in that tunnel



1 - too narrow between the wall/vat

2 - platform breaks up the flow, removing the bit next to the wall should improve it.

Hmmm, dunno if that room would be better if it only had one vat in it so that it was opened up a lot more.

Like the vats and the way the presses on the floor above lead into them.



1 - would be better if there was a way up into that room from the outside, maybe lower the room height or take the ground up to the edge.

2 - rock edges need some work to make it easier to get up

3 - can get stuck on that bench and bin, they'll prolly work better if moved away from the rocks.

4 - clip brushes around those small trees needs thinning down

5 - too dark inside that building.

6 - some gimps stolen part of the building :smile:

7 - this sections a bit out of the way, put a few items up there to give players an incentive to go there.



1 - empty road needs some vehicles or other stuff on it.

2 - very dark tunnel and the arch needs smoothing out.

3 - needs something to break that wall up, the roof edge needs putting in.

4 - inside of that shop is very small, maybe too difficult to nav

5 - bedroom is too dark.

6 - theres a very small building at lower level at the far end which is empty, don't think its needed as this area is pretty big and already has quite a few buildings.



1 - invisible edge generated where that red line is.

2 - very long roof line needs breaking up.

3 - seems a shame you can't get up those rocks and into that room, could also use the rocks to get onto the garage roof.

4 - could do with a few items up there.

Not 100% sure about the light levels in the outdoor areas and cellar, they're maybe a bit too dark. Theres quite a few sounds in there but could do with some more - water dripping in the cellar, vat noises etc.

Even with all that stuff its still a big improvevement over the last version :smile:

damn beerman :eek: , you may have just set a whole new standard for critiques..

very nicely done..

/me bows

Cheers !!! :biggrin:

beer hunter said:
Cheers !!! :biggrin:

you betcha bud.. that comment doesn't come easily.. we have many high quality critiquers around here.. many of whom i envy for their eye.

/me is humbled..

I agree. Outstanding clarity and detail :smile:

Good work both of you. I'll have a run through the next version. :smile:

Thx, tried to make it as concise and helpful as possible

oops ! sorry, double post

/edit - stupid me hit the quote button doh ! and then it double posted :sad: the net seems to have it in for me today.

uhh, any particular reason to quote an entire post beerman? your own post?

yup, my stupidity was the reason :smile:

thanks for taking the time Beer. you picked up on most of my 'to do' list. :smile: i'll go through some of your points.
pic 1. the clipping problem happened when i hid the clipbrush and changed the brushwork of the stairs. but even so, there still wasn't enough headroom to get up the top half without crouching. it's already fixed. :smile: the extra furniture is under construction.

pic2.
i moved the door, but it must hve been ungrouped at the time, and the origin stayed where it was. sorted. apart from the light level, there's a few things about the tunnel/truck area that need worked on. it's on my list. :smile:

pic 3. i'm thinking more along the lines of making this room less open. :razz: the platform that runs along the wall will carry more pipes, and i want some more container type things too.

pic 4. the big wall, just out of sight to the left of the picture, has always looked wrong. when i'm happy with it, there will be a way into the window. there's no clip brush around the tree. they're cyclers. all the models are, and all have the same hit box. i'll need to look for that fix that stops hammer from crashing when i try to make them cycler_sprites.

pic 5. i thought about a vehicle, but its only a road between two buildings, so it might look daft. r's are a main factor here too. i've thought about re-working the entire insides of that building. i probably wont, completely, but.... the little building down in the corner, i think i'll seal it up with shutters.

pic 6. the invisible edge is the hitbox of the cycler again. i have a plan for the roofline ,) . you cant get up the rocks to the room? i must by leet. :smile: item placement is a bit of a mystery to me. definately something i'd need more feedback on as the map nears completion.

if the outdoor light levels seem too dark, then some of the other areas must be almost black. i tweaked the light_environment until it looked just right for me. if it's agreed to be too dark though, i could up it a little.

thanks again for taking the time, and for avoiding bits that are still obviously under construction.

you cant get up the rocks to the room? i must by leet. :smile: item placement is a bit of a mystery to me.

heh, i managed to gauss up onto most of the roofs but those tricky small jumps defeat me :smile:

Ditto about the items, i usually just space them out and put a few better weapons in out of the way places to make players go there.

thanks again for taking the time, and for avoiding bits that are still obviously under construction.

no problem.

three full moons later, and another incarnation arrives. without loading up the old map and having a runaround, i honestly dont know what all the changes are since the last time i submitted a version. various bits have come and gone, and i've sort of lost track of what they were.

link</A>

i think this'll be my comp entry, though there's half a chance that i'll get the other map done in time now. some new (some not so) screens...........















it'll get a final compile in a couple of days, so if anyone sees anything that needs changing, fire away.....

[edit] .zip fixed :smile:

[/edit]

this map actually looks pretty cool, less screen shots 5 and 6 which are way to dark. Im interested to see how this turns out. I really like the stairs.. that looks real nice.

First of all 'walltopbush.mdl' was missing, so you should add that. :smile:

General Problems:

All the lighting is very bright and sterlie. Any sense of atmosphere is
eliminated. Create a test map with all your texture lights in it and
open up your lights.rad. Tone down any excessively bright lights and
tweak away. It would be wise to make a back-up beforehand, but it's not
really necessary. If you do this it will pay huge dividends. You'll get
some real nice shadows and highlights to complement your architecture.
Be sure not to leave any areas too dark though.

Another fairly large, but easily correctable problem of yours is your
bad textures. Everyone knows the hl.wad is dated, but that's not what
I'm talking about. Some are over strectched and others just look out of
place. You also have some detailed textures alongside blurry ones.

Specific Problems:

1. The bars in the background need to be fixed.



2. There is an indentation in the wall that probably shouldn't be there. The floor is too thin to look realistic.



3. The noise when the doors close doesn't suit wooden doors at all.



4. Who stole all the furniture? Probably the same person who made the texture error!



5. A close up of the error! Included so the screenshot numbers correspond to the points. :smile:



6. That show kept me entertained for ages. As you can see, it's a a smidge too far forward.



7. This is the sterile lighting I was talking about, no real shadows.



8. This pile of dirt ends abrputly.



9. A bit thick don't you think?



10. TAKE ME TO ENTITY!



11. Not sure why I took this. Maybe it's the thin floor or the bad door texture.



12. Might as well make this glass transparent.



13. I don't know what's up with these lights at all. It should just be a func_wall.



14. Just a flat face above the huge door.



15. Put a little light in here to draw attention. This room is a cool detail.



16. Don't have this end at a point, give it some thickness. :smile:



17. Flimsy door here, just make the frame bigger too.



18. Not the best design here. A solid texture around this edge might be an improvement.



19. Just a small hitch in the grass here.



20. The clip brush over thses barrels extends too far out.



21. Change the water/slime to func_water to get rid of the brightness.



22. Another masked texture to be fixed.

This is a sweet wee map, and would score quite favourably if you
address the problems. There's plenty of places to explore and windows
to smash. :biggrin:

thanks A_S.

i really don't know what i can do about the lighting. i'll try what you say with a small test map, but from the way it displays on my monitor, there's only one of the texlights that i can think of being a bit bright.
lighting always seems to be the thing that i find hardest to picture in my head. and probably the hardest thing to get everyone to agree on.

about the textures. there's some in there that i really don't like, but but bits of the map are that old now, that they feel like they belong there. i had a go at using detail textures to try and spink it up a bit, but with very limited success, so they got ditched.

some of the bugs you pointed out i've already found. some are new to me.
1. already fixed :smile:
2. i remember having issues with that staircase when i was making it. there was a tunnel, an outside area, and a cellar to avoid. for some reason the little lip on the wall was intentional.
3. you just convinced me to turn all/most of the doors to world brushes, and leave them open. should even help in some small way with the r's.
4.gawd, i'd forgotten that room even existed :biggrin:
5.i think i'll turn that door to world, and leave it closed. :biggrin:
6. so much fun in ten little frames. :smile:
7. nothing there to cast any shadows, though this is the texlight that i think may be too bright.
8. a legacy from when there was a wall instead of a fence. on the to do list.
9. just a bit. :razz: and don't you love the textures in that room.
10. the room behind it was culled. on the list.
11. could be the thin floor again. and the arch under the wood looks wrong. i messed with it and tried variations, and eventually settled with that.
12. what glass? :razz:
13. looks like it's rendermode is wrong. i'll have a look.
14. well spotted.
15. i thought about a light, but couldn't figure why an empty builing would have a light in it. maybe that doesn't matter, so i'll give it a go.
16. ooh err, give it some thickness lad. :biggrin:
17. one of those bits that are that old that i don't even see them any more.
18. i think you're right. it wouldn't light up the wall as harshly then.
19. ah, i'd noticed that and forgot to fix it. n1.
20.there was a missing barrel. fixed already.
21. i've added more lighting in there, so the water doesn't look as bright now. i'll have another look and see if funcing it could improve it more.
22. already fixed. :smile:

there's a couple of other things that i've tweaked, and a few ideas that i've abandoned. what's left to do should be wrapped up by tommorow night.

cheers again for the bugs and pointers.

No problem bud. I'd be happy to go through the next version too. :smile:

Nice work there A_S :smile:

lighting always seems to be the thing that i find hardest to picture in my head. and probably the hardest thing to get everyone to agree on.

Thats prolly down to different hardware settings and real world lighting conditions. Lighting usually ends up as a compromise - make it light enough so that its not pitch black when viewed during daylight hours but not so bright during night time that it'll burn your eyes out.

Modifying lights.rad is one way of tweaking the lights but you can also mess about with Zoners HLRAD settings, -ambient is useful to stop areas coming out pitch black, could be a bit quicker than manually editing all those lights :smile:

i think this should be the final version. unless someone has the itchy and scratchy theme as an hl compatible .wav file. :smile:

there's a problem with the longjump thing falling into the corridor below. same deal as with ferrets batteries. no matter how high it is above the ground, it still goes through, even though the ground is a level world brush. it's something i can change if i need to compile again, but it can stay where it is otherwise.

i dumped some textures to make way for some more I&S frames. they dont play exactly as i wanted them (once in a while they do), but it's still a bit of fun. use the remote to see them. :biggrin:

once you get to know where the weapons are, it's easy to get well tooled up pretty quickly. keep your eyes open and they're not hard to find.

other than that, enjoy. D

bah.

Did you try using a clip brush for the longjump?

didn't try that, no. but clip brushes only stop players, so i don't think that would work. the only thing i tried was to move it around a bit, away from the wall and floor. i've found another slight bug, so i'll probably have another go at fixing it. there's a wall at the fenced ally, in the little inshot, that doesn't line up right. you can see sky through the gap :sad:

Clip brushes will hold up the longjump. How dare you insult me and my knowledge! Your doubt brings shame to your pit. :smile:

i'll give it a go. i was going to try a worldbush anyway, but i'll double it up with a clipbrush to be sure, to be sure.

:smile:

1. This door is a bit thin.



2. You could put a trim around this. An open hatch on top would add some needed detail.



3. Find yourself a nicer crate texture. The on in the tfc .wad that
goes with those casbah textures is exponentially better than the
default one.



4. That light needs to be reworked like the others.



5. The texture on the underside of this beam is misaligned.



6. Completely forget what I was supposed to comment here. I took the
screenshots yesterday. It might have been to do with the wall texture
I'm pointing at, but it's too dark to see.



7. No real need for this lip here.



8. A frame around this window would make it look more at home.



9. Give this wall some depth. :smile:



10. Behold, the corner of texture errors!



11. These look quite fanciful. Make them so you can shoot people through them and they'll be perfect.



12. Small brush error where I'm pointing but you can't really make it out.



13. HOM effect here.



14. Texture error



15. This cliff is a little boxy looking.



16. Another texture error.



17. Same. :smile:



18. Not sure why I took a screenshot of this as you already said you noticed it. Maybe it was in case you forgot.



19. This body of water is inexplicably turbulent! Turn off the waves.

I love the open layout of this one. Nice work getting the r's reasonable almost everywhere. :smile:

thanks for running your sniperscope over it once again A_S

i done the snagging. then i started adding a new section. a link from one of the less accessable open areas, into the cellars. i gave myself a slap on the back of the head and deleted most of it again. i left a little of it in there for fun though.

also found one of my textures had been replaced with my white texlight. i dunno how i managed that. that took a bit of time to sort out. i hope i got them all. :/

i haven't compiled the latest yet, that'll happen overnight. i'll find out i the morning if i've bolloxed something else, or hopefully, not.

and thnx again for your help with this. i'd never have spotted half of those. :smile: