Patriotism doesn't exist because we're proud that we pay taxes. Patriotism exists for the ideals of our nation, ideals which I myself would die for... I will not contend that they have been implemented in recent years, because they have been more disgraced than revered; but when the United States goes to fight for true freedom, then you will see the reason for this 'blind' love.

Now where's that flag picture...?

All things being equal, I think America could use a few more topless beaches...

I think all countries need that. World peace would be more acheivable if there were more of these :smile:

Cassius said:
Patriotism doesn't exist because we're proud that we pay taxes. Patriotism exists for the ideals of our nation, ideals which I myself would die for... I will not contend that they have been implemented in recent years, because they have been more disgraced than revered; but when the United States goes to fight for true freedom, then you will see the reason for this 'blind' love.

Funny how it always seems to come back to glory and honour in fighting. No matter what the real situation at home or abroad, the heroic soldier dying for the ideals of freedom is a nice simple picture onto which we can pin our frustrated desire for unwavering feudal loyalty.

I can't think of anything bad to say about canada, new zealand, sweden, belgium, holland, finland, norway, denmark, portugal, umm... I'm sure there are more. But that's not really the point Cass, you have just basically said that we shouldn't say anything bad about america because it's better than where we live... I bet you don't even know about most of the things happening outside of your continent so how can you possibly say that.

Funny how it all comes back to the supposed glory and honor of peace.

After all, what is freedom but a fight against corruption? And not so naively as to imply that every battle I would have to involve bullets at all. I said that I would die for America's ideals, not that I will, and not necessarily as the American government says I should.

Government does not equal nation. Pop culture does not equal nation. Exempting those of you who have actually come here, your opinions of us are based on some fact and mostly the perception of 'Big Bad America', which exists for about a thousandth of the actual nation.

Silly jeff, I will never tell you not to say what you believe. I'm saying, there is no real point to insulting what I believe is probably the greatest society on the planet, when there is no example of a place that could really be better, under the same conditions and obligations that we have.

Meh, topless beaches aren't that great... there's like what, one hot girl there who's topless, and everyone else makes you go

Don't you believe, Gollum - will you ever believe? - that freedom is in fact something worth dying for, if it comes to that? And before you make 'stupid American' jokes, I'm not saying America always fights for freedom, but when it does, politically or militarily, wouldn't you help it, or even support it?

Funny how it all comes back to the supposed glory and honor of peace.

After all, what is freedom but a fight against corruption? And not so naively as to imply that every battle I would have to involve bullets at all. I said that I would die for America's ideals, not that I will, and not necessarily as the American government says I should.

Government does not equal nation. Pop culture does not equal nation. Exempting those of you who have actually come here, your opinions of us are based on some fact and mostly the perception of 'Big Bad America', which exists for about a thousandth of the actual nation.

Silly jeff, I will never tell you not to say what you believe. I'm saying, there is no real point to insulting what I believe is probably the greatest society on the planet, when there is no example of a place that could really be better, under the same conditions and obligations that we have.

Meh, topless beaches aren't that great... there's like what, one hot girl there who's topless, and everyone else makes you go

Don't you believe, Gollum - will you ever believe? - that freedom is in fact something worth dying for, if it comes to that? And before you make 'stupid American' jokes, I'm not saying America always fights for freedom, but when it does, politically or militarily, wouldn't you help it, or even support it?

Actually no, I do not and most likely never will believe that freedom is worth dying for. By that, I mean that I am not prepared to "die for freedom", "die for my country", "die for my cause" or indeed die for any other abstract reason. I have better things to do with my life than to sacrifice it to a cause - I prefer to commit it to living and to learning.

The only thing for which I feel strongly enough to die, or for which to kill, is my affection for my family, my closest friends and lovers. My loyalties lie entirely with particular people and never with banners, groups or concepts. I am ready to jump ship from any country or cause that demands too much of me; none are worthy of my life. Few are worthy even of my strong support.

I admire those who genuinely are prepared to die for their ideals. I am not one of them. I suspect I never will be; I have never understood tribal loyalties; I have never felt the need to subsume my identity under a greater whole. I am neither proud of my country nor do I despise it. It's just a place to live, which happens to contain many of my favourite people in the world.

And BTW I have actually come to America and I do actually like the country a lot. I'm tempted to go and live there for a while at some point.

I'm saying, there is no real point to insulting what I believe is probably the greatest society on the planet, when there is no example of a place that could really be better, under the same conditions and obligations that we have.

But surely you have the capacity to see that although the US has loads of good aspects (anybody who thinks the entirity of a country is bad is a fool imo), it also has aspects where it looks bad compared to other countries? I can think of allot of laws and systems in our country where we would be better off if we copied the policy of another country that has a better record than the UK in that particular area. For example we have high teenage pregnancy here and this would seem to be because people don't like to talk about it with children from a young age. Now I believe in sweden they do talk about sex with children from a younger age, and they have very low teenage pregnancy rates. It is within my capacity to see that our country may improve by taking the example of sweden in this case. You do not seem to have the capacity to see that an improvement could be made in the US by following the example of another country (or countries) in any aspect or area we have talked about. Even Orph managed to do this on the issue of driving while on a mobile phone, which is illegal here, and not over there. He had the capacity to see that perhaps there were be allot fewer road deaths if the US had the same law for that as we do here.

Gollum said:
Actually no, I do not and most likely never will believe that freedom is worth dying for.

Such dishonor is untouchable by anything I could ever say, but I will tell you that without these ideals and causes that you so readily scorn, neither you nor I would be speaking here.

Jeff, the US has about a billion ways to improve, some more major than others... however, as a whole, I would say we are in fact the best. In my humble opinion, of course. And by the way, don't you ever start making assumptions about my 'capacity'.

I wasn't making an assumption, I was making a judgement based on the facts presented before me. Whether or not you think america is the best, I have not once seen you admit that america could be better if it adopted some of the rules and systems used in other countries. All you say is that you may have ways to improve but that nobody is qualified to tell you about them because according to you, america is the best on average. Where's the logic in that? Will you agree that by adopting some systems present in other countries, the US could be better, or not?

Such dishonor is untouchable by anything I could ever say, but I will tell you that without these ideals and causes that you so readily scorn, neither you nor I would be speaking here.

You forget - or do not understand - to whom you are speaking. You talk of right and wrong, of liberty and peace, as if you understand them. Do you understand the many and complex problems of ethics? Can you tell me why an act is right? What can you tell me of obligation and moral duties? What can you tell me of the relationship between the individual and the state? What can you tell me of the ethics of war and massacre?

Can you describe to me the freedom for which the soldiers fight? Can you tell me what it really means? I know what it means to me and I value it greatly; that does not imply that I must be prepared to fight for it.

You reason with counterfactuals whilst knowing nothing about them. Can you explain to me the logic of a counterfactual statement? Can you even begin to justify the meaningfulness of your own counterfactual claim?

It's a good thing there are plenty of hot-headed teenagers, receptive to implanted ideals and disinclined to question them. Without these people there would not be enough cannon-fodder.

You understand nothing of war. You make grand noble gestures of martyrdom, since they are easy and impressive. You tell me that you are prepared to fight for your country and your ideals. Say it again when there's a bullet in your gut. Say it again when you lose both your legs to gangrene. Say it again when you slip in the blood of your comrades. Say it again when a child is caught in your crossfire.

Then I will admire your courage and your idealism. Then I will call you brave. I will still shake my head sadly and mourn the loss of another young life, but at least I will respect your choice. Till then, your courage is to me the courage of a movie-goer, the misdirected testosterone of an armchair idealist.

Have you ever seriously thought about killing or torturing a person? I am not talking about flashes of impotent anger, but of coldly-calculated assault in order to produce an effect (a greater cause, if you like). I have - just the once - and I came very close to actualising it. Fortunately I did not, otherwise I would now be in prison, but I now know that I am capable of merciless torture. That is not a nice thing to learn about yourself.

I'm sorry that all came out so nastily, but you really should learn to think before you open that bolshy little mouth. I made a perfectly rational and calm post - I did not suggest for a moment that you ought to follow my ideals - and you took my honesty as an opportunity to look impressive by means of a snub on my character. Do not be so presumptuous towards anyone and especially not towards someone with my intellect and integrity.

Cassius said:
Discuss it all you want, but I dare you to find a country that is superior to America.

Superior in what way? Crime & safety (Luxembourg), "quality of life" (Norway), life expectancy (Japan), GDP (Luxembourg again), poverty levels (Sweden- did you know about 13% of Americans live under the $11/day poverty line?) and infant mortality rates (Sweden), general public health (Sweden), education (Norway) and health (Sweden) spending, unemployment levels (Switzerland), crime (Northern Ireland!) and corruption (UK and a few others). Going right down to the bottom, you seem to have pretty bad labour rights? And we won't mention atmoshpere-destroying chemical emission or electricity consumption levels.

Yes, you do have the strongest and most technically advanced military (you spend the largest % of GDP in the world on it, and export 40% of all the world arms value) the largest economy, and give the most aid to other countries (even if it is one of the lowest aid/per capita levels). It would be correct to call you more powerful, but nothing more- Norway, Iceland, Sweden, Australia, The Netherlands and Belgium are superior countries in terms of most other things.

Source- the dastardly cads at the UN! http://www.undp.org/hdr2003/pdf/hdr03_HDI.pdf

Uhm, I had written an amazingly long post (3-4 pages) arguing against yours, but around the end, I started to realize that I really did not know exactly what I was arguing against... no offense Gollum, you of course know I have nothing against you as a person, but that's taking it into a deeply philosophical realm, which I would be happy to discuss privately, but which has very little to do with gun control laws and international politics.

Lep - undoubtedly there are ways in which EVERY country has traits superior to America, however, in general, I do not believe there is a nation with our geographical size, population, racial dynamics, and political scenario that could do as well.

The electrical gid is over 50 years old and sent half the country and about half of Ontario in to darkness for 6 hours.

Oh and parts of the US Army (if not all) are trained by the British Army. i defanatly know that the Delta Force train with the SAS.

I also wouldnt put my life on the line for freedom BUT I would defend my family and friends with my life especialy my nephue and nice.

I do love my country but only for most of the people that live in it (not those twats that think its fun to beat the s**t out of people when there trying to have a good night out) and not because of what it stands for although I do love what it used to stand for when it was still the head of a empire exept the atrocoties that they performed. I just think it was an amasing feat for such a relativly small country.

[edit]

I am just saying and I dont want to get in to a argument over anything in this post.

Luxemburg is more or less one city and suburbs; you really can't compare it to the US, perhaps compare it to Philadelphia or something...

As for those others you mentioned, it's not like they are without their problems. For example, both Sweden and Norway have falling populations due to decreased birth rates... I'd still be very interested in visiting the both of 'em, I'm a cold weather person and stuff.

All countries have their pros and cons. It's not just a matter of statistics either - if you really want to find out what a country is like, go live there.

For example, Holland is full of dog s**t and the people (on the whole) are anti-social :heee:

*caveat - I had just come from Japan at the time, which may have skewed my perception of Dutch culture.

I do not believe there is a nation with our geographical size, population, racial dynamics, and political scenario that could do as well.

Well in that case you aren't saying anything. Anybody could say that their country is the best out of the ones that have the same population, area, racial dynamics, and political scenario, because I would say that no two countries have all these criteria in common. And you still didn't answer my question.

hi people!

i dunno if u remember me, i used to appear sometimes on these forums, and i decided to make a little come back to defend this movie... i think the message it brings is very important on an individual scale. What it says is that people who are obsessed with defending themselves become paranoid, and more agressive, and they attract violence upon them, or become themselves violent; on the other hand, people who open their doors to the others and show they have nothing to fear, usually live in peace and don't get into trouble. It's a question of attitude; if someone is too suspicious and closed to the others, he will get attacked. Even criminals have a heart...

This is i guess what Marylin Manson meant in his interview when Moore was asking him what would he tell the kids if he could talk to them, and he answered "i'd just listen to what they have to say; that's what NO ONE DID to them".

Now other than that, about owning guns, i think people who live in a lonely farm for example should have weapons, to defend themselves before the "cavalry" arrives.

agh! i leave for the weekend, and i come back to this.. the exciting thread died =(

I guess if i can get a last word... I'll be happy =D

I do not believe there is a nation with our geographical size, population, racial dynamics, and political scenario that could do as well.

I live here. I've lived here my entire life. I agree... but that's only because ive never known anything else. Though, if it were 100 years ago, I would choose america over anything. This because america, from what i've read in bias american text books, respected the major human rights, served much more opportunity, and was - DARE I SAY? - more 'free'. Today, most countries are much more similar than a lot of people think. That's why I would probably stay loyal to my native country. ANYWAY... Like i said, i've never left the country. All i know about foreign countries is from what i've read, and what i've seen on TV. And unless the TV is a dirty liar, i'm pretty confident that every aussie hunts roo's with boomerangs

Actually no, I do not and most likely never will believe that freedom is worth dying for.

Word. Today there are very few reasons to give your life away. I would NEVER give my own life - though - I will ALWAYS respect those who did. Not to say that we were saved from the nazis... or the dirty commies... or japan... but for those who died for a better future in general. (french folks often forget how many american corpses were laying on their beaches 60-odd years ago.) I hate to turn this into another 'god bless america' post, but all these wars, despite all the politics, despite what the intentions might look like, and despite who we were fighting... American soldier threw THEIR LIVES away for the betterment of america and OTHER nations alike. ACK... i'm gettin off topic... patriotism gland... taking over... uuiiigghh.... UNCLE SAME WANTS YOU!!!

So anyway... you just might reconsider if you were a german jew under the nazi regime.... and your jewish children were going to grow up with prejudice and hatred. Would you put your own life at risk to ensure a better future for generations to come? I know i would. But hell, thats what americans are for! Disposable heroes eh

::american G.I. JOE busts through the window and beats up the nazi hiding in my closet!!::

woh! saved again!

Cassius said:
that's taking it into a deeply philosophical realm, which I would be happy to discuss privately, but which has very little to do with gun control laws and international politics.

How is it that philosophy has nothing to do with gun laws and international politics? I would argue that it has everything to do with such topics.

Personaly, I agree with Gollum on most points. I'm far more ignorant than he on this issue, a common disparity between europeans and americans, but I recognize that ignorance, and one day hope to truely rectify some of it be spending significant time in other countries.

Bewbies said:
(french folks often forget how many american corpses were laying on their beaches 60-odd years ago.)

and most of the Americans I have met and spoke to also forget about all the other nations like England, Germany, Canada, Australia, France, Poland, New Zealand and all the rest of them that lost men on those beaches, farms and towns.

It just really annoys me that they seem to forget that they weren't the only ones in those wars fighting.

Just because i mention americans, doesn't mean i'm implying they they were the only ones doing the right thing. I can say that many people in africa are starving... am i also trying to say that every other person in every other country is well fed? no.

I never said you were I was just stating the fact that most of the Americans that I have spoke to tend to forget thet they wern't the only ones there.

/

"The greatest strategist not only knows the best route of attack, but the quickest route of retreat."

gimpinthesink said:
I never said you were I was just stating the fact that most of the Americans that I have spoke to tent to forget thet they wern't the only ones there.

I may be quoting you and all, but that doesn't mean my post pertains to anything you said... oye, sarcasm never was my strong point.

Any american that actually thinks that we EVER act alone, is a fool. We may act like it sometimes, but we aren't exactly king of the world. We need, and have always needed, the support of other countries. Those australian folks were actually the first ones in afghanistan... if i remember correctly.

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How is it that philosophy has nothing to do with gun laws and international politics? I would argue that it has everything to do with such topics.


Personaly, I agree with Gollum on most points. I'm far more ignorant than he on this issue, a common disparity between europeans and americans, but I recognize that ignorance, and one day hope to truely rectify some of it be spending significant time in other countries.

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I should point out that I don't have the answers to all the questions I ask; I only have a (limited) understanding of the problems, and some tentative thoughts as to solutions. In particular, my political knowledge is pretty ropey and nothing to aspire towards!

Also it is not uniformly the case that Americans are less aware of international issues than Europeans. True, Europeans tend to travel more between other parts of Europe (if nothing else, because it's so easy) than Americans do to other countries. But some of the most culturally astute people I know are American (albeit self-selecting, since almost all the Americans I know are seasoned travellers).

Certainly it's well worth spending time in foreign countries, if you have the opportunity, to give you another perspective on the world (and it's just fun too). I've been feeling a bit "provincialised" from living in this country for so long now.

The most haunting place I ever visited was the Peace Park in the city of Hiroshima. The park didn't feel like part of the city; rather, it felt like a part of the unearthly nearby island of Miyajima. It was quite unlike anywhere else I've ever been, and the message it gave was very powerful - all the more so for its complete lack of bitterness or blame. And then there's the overwhelming story of Sadako Sasaki.....accounts differ, but this is a good version of the story. This is the most authoritative source I could find, though rather dry in comparison.

And as for the relevance of philosophy? If you want to see a visionary philosophical document of ethics and politics - the first of its kind, and still the paradigm for others - look no further than the American constitution itself.