Mappers in the Real World

KungFuSquirrel said:
Underdog, go play some Shadow of the Colossus and then talk about seriousness or short-sightedness...

You talk about an exception when I am talking about the rule?

When was the last time you stood in the computer gaming section of say Wal-Mart and really looked at what the rest of the world is buying?

Sure, I bet there are a whole slough of tough, compelling brain strainers out there but the majority of the buying public is purchasing the brain dead titles.

I didn't mean to pack the whole genre into one almighty wad, but the vast numbers of people who play those machines, are buying mindless rampaging titles.

Course, I did mention:

<DIV class=quotetitle>? posted by Underdog</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
I have noticed, at least in my limited way that gaming has shifted. Quite a bit in fact.

</DIV>This quote leaves a lot of room for doubt.

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There is no history until something happens, then there is.

I have a few female friends, and a girlfriend, who dont mind playing
computer games, as long as the games arent violent and repetetive.

Is there much out there that is more brain dead than the FPSs that
probably make up the bulk of games bought by people on this website?
Quite frankly, racing games like Forza or GT4 have a damn sight more
depth than most games out there. And even those that don't are hardly
without merit - why is it sickening if a game is short sighted anyway?
These things exist to provide enjoyment, and if a quick romp around
some hack and slash like Dynasty Warriors or Devil May Cry provides it,
what is the problem?

Also, why the hell are consoles "stupid"? They are cheap, encompass as
many if not
more game genres than the PC does, have more approachable and intuitive
controllers, feature none of the "installation" nonsense of PC gaming,
and don't have any of the technical concerns abot whether it will run
on your system. What is at all "stupid" about that? They might not be
to your liking for some reason, but I'd be interested to hear your
reasoning behind marking them as "stupid".

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Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

No.

Last time I took the time to make a comment around here it was thrown in the garbage like yesterdays lunch leftovers. If somehow you personally could guarantee that this did not happen then I might reconsider but since its neither your place to police my or anyone else's posts (short of truly bad people- you know what I mean) I feel little compelled to clarify myself further.

Why I feel certain games are stupid is not anything that need concern you. What you might consider is, I use the word stupid in more than its dictionary definition. For instance, I think its stupid to eat cereal instead of eggs in the morning but thats completely irrational isn't it. I do not think the people are stupid, just the idea. Perhaps thats the answer you seek.

Its not as if I asked you why you feel I am wrong. You may feel such, but I wasn't aware that there was a rule that said I must clarify my sentiments.

I am not being rude, as much as it may sound like it. I am however concerned that you may feel that I need justify myself somehow. I think certain games are dumb. End of story.

If this answer is somehow not good enough, I am sorry but it is the best you are going to recieve today.

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There is no history until something happens, then there is.

Clearly your mind is set. I completely agree that some games are dumb -
its a very valid comment to make. What I don't really understand is how
you can say the same thing about an entire system when, for all intents
and purposes, it serves the same purpose as a PC in this regard - it
lets you play games. You wanna keep your reasons to yourself, fine, but
it's a bit sad that you won't aren't even willing to discuss your
opinions on something so utterly trivial.

I don't feel you NEED to justify your comment, but I hoped you would.
As I said, "I'd be interested to hear...". As far as I'm concerned, if
somebody puts out a comment it is hardly unreasonable for a person to
ask for the justification behind it.

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Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting ReNo</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
I don't feel you NEED to justify your comment, but I hoped you would. As I said, "I'd be interested to hear...". As far as I'm concerned, if somebody puts out a comment it is hardly unreasonable for a person to ask for the justification behind it.
</DIV></DIV>

And? What about the umpteen individuals that wouldn't? Sure, its entirely possible for the two of us to completely disagree. We could disagree in such a way as to be completely incompatible, yet each of us would part still on speaking terms. On more than one occasion here I was left with the feeling that I was so irrelevant to the people I was conversing with that I wasn't even worth the data required to post my replies let alone the value their time was in wasting it reading my tripe.

I am part of a small group of older people who began life without machines to entertain ourselves with. I do not have the history to draw many opinions on where gaming is concerned because my time is filled with work and other of life's necessities. I began my gaming with an Atari 2600 and a Commodore 16. I decided that I liked the computer best. I have not regretted that decision.

I would like to reach a point in this forum where I can post anything and not have it dismissed out of hand so casually. I am not even concerned that I may be the only one who thinks like I do, I am used to that. What I am not used to is having my opinions chucked in the garbage so easily.

Anyway, that would be a better gift to me than you agreeing.

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There is no history until something happens, then there is.

I didn't chuck your opinion it in the garbage nor disregard it; I asked
for clarification and from what reasoning your opinions stem.

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[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

ReNo said:
I didn't chuck your opinion it in the garbage nor disregard it; I asked for clarification and from what reasoning your opinions stem.

There were 3 small paragraphs in that reply and this is all you got. Its no wonder I have a hard time conveying.

And your answer, as insignificant as it might be, is contained within the above post.

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There is no history until something happens, then there is.

In my opinion, I don't think you should censor yourself because of
particular instances in which you felt your opinions were belittled.

Personally, I'm not going to lose any sleep because you didn't feel
inclined to share your reasoning, but I think this forum (like any
other) would die for lack of dialogue if everyone followed your lead.

Oh, Reno, Reno, Reno. :smile:

You haven't covered any search methods, I assume. There are different types of AI, of course, deterministic, is one method, and THAT is "Produce every possibility ever then cross check the input and give an output". I think that's arguably not AI ... but it is. It's some complex stuff.

What you're talking about doing would be hard. How would you intend to implement it? I would imagine it'd be almost nothing but heuristics (tricks), or are you going to actually implement machine learning (what methods?) :smile:

I'm not done with my bachelors yet. After I get that done, take my GRE, I can start my masters. Surprisingly, there's not many courses to get a masters, in addition to your bachelors.

My Tic-Tac-Toe game though is you vs. computer. It'll probably be TERRIBLE at playing. I'll look online and see what methods some other people used to beat people. I'm thinking of doing a heuristic ... although, I believe I have to implement some type of machine learning, like .. to get credit. I could have it just follow the player around ... blocking them, taking a "win" if it can, otherwise, taking a block. Also, I'd have to figure out some quantifications for board spaces. Obviously, it's easiest to win by occupying the middle square, since, it's connected to all other squares (There are four possible wins just by occupying that square). I think I'll have to use some probability too. In some form. Maybe that'll be encompassed by the machine learning aspect.

Don't know yet. I still have to finish Sudoku.

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

I'm going to be using one of the common game AI techniques, such as
some form of finite state machine or perhaps one of the slightly newer
approaches such as motivational graphs or fuzzy cognitive maps. My
current "favourite" would be a subsumption architecture, which has each
character being driven by multiple, concurrently active FSMs, with the
lowest level one controlling low level behaviour (eg. taking a step
forward, jumping, etc...) and higher ones covering increasingly complex
behaviour (eg. walk to the table, buy a drink, etc...). My concern is
that having such a system in place might prove a bit too expensive if
you are dealing with hundreds of characters at a time. I'll have to
investigate optimisation techniques, the balance of behavioural
complexity, number of characters and performance, and so on. I also
plan on having controls that let the player (not that it is going to be
a "game") turn on or off various behavioural traits (eg. rules or
states in the character behaviour) to see the effect they have on the
believability of the scene, and the performance.

I won't be having any sort of learning; given that I'm researching AI
for BACKGROUND characters in games, the resources that are
realistically going to be allocated to it in a game (in terms of memory
and CPU time) are very low. Learning would be almost entirely wasted on
characters that serve no real purpose other than to make an environment
more believable.

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Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

Addicted to Morphine said:
In my opinion, I don't think you should censor yourself because of particular instances in which you felt your opinions were belittled.

Personally, I'm not going to lose any sleep because you didn't feel inclined to share your reasoning, but I think this forum (like any other) would die for lack of dialogue if everyone followed your lead.

Since you broke your reply in half, I suppose I should answer it in kind:

1) Its not censorship exactly. More a kind of self imposed moderatorship. Threads that become personal because the other parties involved do not really know how to converse on any other type of level can go dangerously wrong. Look around you. People here are passionate about many topics. However, very few of them can post without imposing some sort of an attacking stance. They most probably do not see themselves in any such light, but its there none the less. Think about this for a moment and you may understand my view on this. Many times people here have said to me "How can you focus on the words WRONG and be so insulted?" I have noticed that other people focus on other words like yesterday when I typed the word "Stupid". I see this as the same issue, people focusing on key words. Many here do not I am sure. The point is, we all do it, yet very few actually comprehend why. Whats worse is when someone is assaulted for doing this action while others are allowed to continue unimpeded. If I can avoid an occurance by not participating then I will do so gladly. If someone doesn't see my lack of participating as correct then they need to ask themselves why, not me since its obviously their viewpoint that now is the main concern.

2) What makes you think that a kind of action of that nature isn't already in evident? Sorry to make #2 so short but its actually not my problem and since you brought it up I feel its your place to post reasons why, or why not.

In the end, as long as a dialog such as you and I are currently having can feel safe, I doubt few would avoid it if they found the topic interesting enough. Sadly, many here do not know how to keep a conversation going forward. They either become hostile in some way, no matter how minute it may be or the people just stop posting in that thread. :sad:

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There is no history until something happens, then there is.

I thought my reply was complete and fully formed.

1. Sure, there are some instances where dialogue has degenerated and stagnated, but I keep posting anyway.

2. People definitely still speak their mind and give their reasons for
their opinions here. Look at ReNo for example, he just offered
several points for why he thought consoles were a valid gaming
platform. I don't know if I ever come across as brusque (I don't
know, it's hard to look outside myself and see if I am or not) but I'm
pretty sure every opinion I have, I have reasons for it and I'm not
afraid to share. As long as I can express my thought process and
lay out my position, I think there can be dialogue. I think many
people on this website do the same thing. Sure, there may be a
few of us here that make strong statements without an explanation, but
if they were asked I bet they would be able to offer some reasoning for
their opinions.

Yes but sometimes opinions go beyond words. Not that we have that many earth shattering discussions that would cause everyone to go brain numb but a few of us have not the give of gab when it comes to self expression.

Another point of interest, what if that someone hates confrontation? In todays politically correct mindset anything can go astray. Again, take my word "Stupid"

I use that word casually. Is no more intrusive than someone saying "Dude" all the time yet I know several people who will get violent if you use dude in a sentence with them in it. like "Dude your car has a flat tire" To them the word is offensive. I do not know exactly how, but its there none the less.

Forums that encompass the world should make allowances for casual words. I should not use the word thats true, but on the same note, no one should be so upset by it as to allow it to effect their replies when posting either. Unless of course I had specifically say "Reno you stupid s**t, consoles are for ..."

As I said, I think its stupid to eat cold cereal for breakfast when you could have eggs and bacon. Its not meant as offensive, its just how I view the topic.

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There is no history until something happens, then there is.

AI is cool stuff yeah. I had to do a Sudoku-solver too and a
Logigram-solver as well. Now we're busy with building AI for a
board-game called Pente, at the end of the period we're going to put
our AI's against each other to see who built the best AI.

Definitely one of the more interesting courses in this study. It was
originally a 4th year course, I'm 2nd years now, but it's now also
introduced in the 2nd year. Funny thing is, I'm doing the 4th years
course together with 2 schoolmates so we can skip the 2nd year part of
it. :smile:

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

I guess it mostly breaks down to definition of words - something we've
stumbled on in the past at the snarkpit. "Stupid" by definition (or at
least by the one I subscribe to) means lack of intelligence, and when
an object is described as stupid I normally take that to mean the idea
of the object makes little sense. Going by this I find it very hard to
understand how consoles could be described as "stupid" - but then that
is, I guess, not what you meant. Or maybe it is. Argh I don't care any
more :biggrin:

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Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net