de_duststorm

My first ever map (to be released) has been completed: de_duststorm!
BB from vlatitude and the Project Genesis team has provided a link here:
HERE
Have a look if you would...read the readme as well, for more info.
Be warned - this map may have texturing errors occasionally that I am not aware of. The main thing that I wanted was gameplay, and my beta test partners said that this was present, so I decided to do a final compile with finished geometry and leave it at that!
Try it out! Thanks,
sde

Also, if anyone would give a "second opinion", e.g. Orpheus's classic map critiques :smile: I'd be very pleased. I need to know what I'm doing wrong as much as anyone!

PS: I am a total moron. I'm having to re-upload the map because one of the brushes re-textures itself during the compile. DL the older version if you wish, I'm just warning you that I'll try to upload a newer one with this bloody brush re-done.

[EDIT] New version uploaded, I think it just overwrote the previous one so :smile:

[MORE EDIT] Eh...never mind then... ...just in case anyone still cares, three screenshots have been uploaded to the map's profile...

[MORE EDIT] Eh...never mind then... ...just in case anyone still cares, three screenshots have been uploaded to the map's profile...

Always interested in taking a look at new maps but it takes a while to go thru' a map properly. Anyways, some feedback.

Feels dust-like but i would ditch as many of those HL textures as possible, they don't fit in with the CS textures.

Its got some very high r_speeds, definitely need to work on reducing them. IIRC there's a tutorial on SP about reducing poly's ? perhaps if someone can dig it out.

There's a lot of pipes, walls, arches, bits of ground, columns etc. that don't need to be func_walls, they're using up extra polys and can be seen further away than normal brushes.

Take the sewer pipes for example - both the pipes and supports are func_walls, changing the pipes to normal brushes and each support into a single func_wall entity should reduce the polys by a fair bit.

Its annoying having to jump up to get on some of the ladders.

Most ladders are brush heavy func_walls, could replace them with a ladder texture to reduce polys.

Dark tunnels can be fun but i would put some lights at passageway junction points to make them easier to nav.

Bomb sites need to be closer to each other, they should be about 15-20 seconds apart to give the CT's a chance to defuse.

Overall it feels too big with too many long corridors and the underground bomb site is massive. I would imagine that teams could take a while to find each other.

As a first release its not too bad, keep at it :smile:

ttfn

1. Ah, I didn't realise that func_walls could also be a hinderance. I'll look into:
a) Seperating some large func_walls (i.e. lots of far-apart brushes being one entity) into individual ones, and
b) Having more world brushes

2. I know about the ladder jumping...the point of it is partially so that you can run straight along without worrying, but I may just lower all of them to running height.

3. I know, but since the tunnels ARE long corridors, it seems better to have something that will react realistically when shot.

4. Sorted! The map that is now being re-worked has had many, many small lights (similar to the ones in the de_dust tunnels) that give off very little light but are great as navigation tools. As a result, there is still a good reason to get NV, but you can manage without it. The lights are high enough to prevent silouhettage.

5. This is something that I had hoped would encourage teamwork. The CTs have to work coherently, with two sub-teams - one to secure bomb site A, and one to secure bomb site B, as soon as the bomb is planted. While this divides manpower, it also ensures that both sites are reached in time (you can do it if you plan), whereas if everyone rushes for one they'll never make it to the other. Haven't had a sewer fight yet, I want to see the effect

6. I also wanted the underground bomb site to be as HUGE as possible without getting ridiculous. It was what I was aiming for, to be honest...

Thanks for the feedback, I need it :smile: I'm going to attempt to rockify the rock texture as well. Oh, and about the HL textures, the only ones really there are:
a) In the caverns - this is because I need a "technical stuff" feel that is unnatural to the surroundings, and the HL textures give this contrast well
b) In the sewers, where they need to feel very damp and concrete-y, which I felt the HL textures also supplied
c) at the terrorist start point, which is meant to give the same sort of contrast as the underground cavern (i.e. new tech built into old stone)
d) The SAM site - same thing
In any case, no CS textures I know of really fitted it as well as the HL textures, although you'll be happy to know I haven't touched the xeno wad
I'll repost once HLAtlas is back up and v1.2 is finished.

Hey look guys, I made a texture.



I just had to do it :biggrin:

LOL!!

Weren't you complaining about your own post getting jacked @ TS forums? :cool:

What the hell is that anyway?

That reminds me... where is Orpheus? He hasn't made a post in days!

..er..thanks, Cassius...

random...

Yeah, pretty random. Somehow i don't think that slime green tex is gonna fit too well in your map :smile:

Heh
Updates to the map done so far:
a) Sewers are now dimly lit
b) Architectural re-vamp, various areas on the surface are now much more interesting
c) Slightly more camper-friendly, simply because as it stood, there was nowhere to even take cover in a firefight
Things to be done:
a) Make rocky areas more interesting
b) Improve R-Speeds
c) Lower the ladders
d) General fixes
e) Make an overly-campable area more destructible

Update.
Done since last update:
a) Made rocky areas more interesting (no longer rocky)
b) Improved R-speeds
c) Lowered the ladders
d) Some general fixes
e) Made an overly-campable area more vulnerable
f) Some nice architecture

Er..dunno what's left to do now. Time for another playtest, I think.

Oh dear...
Need some help on this one!
There is a piece of geometry that needs to be seen from every point on the aboveground part pf the map. As a result, all of the seperate sky areas were merged into one - not so much a skybox as one large covering. Will the entire aboveground map be rendered as long as the player is above ground, then? This is worrying me...
Please tell me.

Sort of yes, sort of no. it will be spotty, but you will probably have vis errors that make more of the map visable than should be. a -full vis might help I don't know, but I'm sure you could take care of the problem with hint brushes

Oh dear...
/me goes to find out how the hell I use hint brushes
Yeah, I'm using full vis in case it helps - if it works, I'm going to ask you guys to test this out again for me.

Is the part that needs to be seen from everywhere in an enclosed area? If so put a hint brush where the roof of this area would be, with the all-visible part above it. If players can't get on the roof stretch the roof textures that aren't visible and all in all it should be ok (I think).

Hmmm...
It turned out to be less of a problem than i thought.
The current problem is r-speeds. avg wpoly is 1000, avg. epoly is 2500 (!!!). The wpoly can jump to 2000+, and is standard 2000 in the temple area, and the epoly can go higher than 3500

oh s**t...

Don't worry about epoly numbers, there's not a damn thing you can do about those. It's weapon models and player models. The only important part is wpoly numbers.

Try "gl_wireframe 2" in the console. that way you can actualy see everything that is rendered in wireframe.

Also, epoly does matter if you are placing static models in your map... I don't know what the accepted limmit is.

Yeah, I've been doing that. It only seems to render what is necessary...the map is not that open, but I like to decieve myself by saying it is detailed :wink:

There is a new download link, by the way...it is the newest compile.

Try to avoid crossing 5000. It's better to keep them low, because epoly go up with the number of people playing at a time.

Some newer mappers don't mind pushing it higher but 7000-8000 should be your absolute upper limit.

The current problem is r-speeds.... and is standard 2000 in the temple area

I told you that underground bomb site was massive :smile: its always difficult to get low r's in big open areas.

Suggestions to reduce the polys -

Remove 2 columns and some func_breakables.

Scale up some of the wall, floor and ceiling textures by 2, at best this will halve the polys for a brush.

Use a single base and top for each column then make the base+top into a func_wall and make the column a normal brush, this'll stop brushes being split up into more polys.

Or... leave a space of 1 unit between each column, base and top brush so that none of them touch other and they don't get chopped up.

The ladders and holes in the floor are quite poly heavy, could replace a couple of them with normal doorways thru' the walls instead. Although it'll prolly not help that much.

Even doing all of that may not be enough to get the r's down to an acceptable level.

ttfn

I think I should be able to do it without changing things architecturally (at least, not in any ways that anyone would notice) by using the methods you have stated there...
Fraggard, do you mean WPoly, EPoly or both together? Neither of them ever went over 5000, but they hit about 6500 in places if they are combined...

I was talking about E Poly only :smile:

BTW: I hope you know that you should try and keep World Polygon counts (wpoly) below 1000

epoly never rises above 3500-4000 i think
Wpoly, on the other hand...urgh
I'd heard that 600 was a rough limit, but 1000 is the standard for my map :sad: The wpoly can actually reach about 2500 0_o

If you are working to a hard limit of 600 you are working for some low spec machines - most mappers these days say about 1000 is the limit you should aim for. If you are over 1000 a lot of the time that should definately be worked on to get them lower.

Gah!
Is anyone here willing to have a look through my map and tell me where and possibly how to lower them? Having looked through how hint brushes work, I'm not convinced that they would be able to help me that much here. This is my first public map; since all my other maps were only going to be viewed by me, I wasn't worried, but now...
Anyway, I'll put up a link shortly.

You're almost certainly right about the hint brushes.

Yup, hints don't help much with big rooms. BTW, taking all those outside walls up to the sky should help a bit.

Hmmm...
I had thought of that, but I'm getting to a stage where my mapping method is working against me. I tend to build rooms in such a way that they do NOT cope well when they are changed - i.e. I did 2 stretches and ended up with 4 leaks at one point! I thought of that, but it also defeats the point of having the roof (as a landmark) there in the first place. I might have to do it anyway, but I'd prefer not to until it's my last resort :smile:
Thanks for the tips, keep them coming!

SDE, the HLAtlas download doesnt work :sad: ? Give us a linkski so I can have a look around...!

Tis ok looking...Just burns me to see another dust map :sad:

gj Vash (@ snarkmarks.)

Sorry to revive this...
The map can now be found HERE
This is the final beta unless someone can tell me something major that must be improved. The only thing I know I have to change is to add a crate next to one of the explosive crates so that you can't get trapped there.

Vash: Please tell me you've had a look at the map? Although I appreciate that there are five squillion dust clones, I decided to start with something as a tribute to the map, and with some really good textures. My next project, also for CS, will take a lot longer but will also use a different texture set. I hope for it to resemble no map currently known about in CS, and if it does the resemblance should only be glancing. Also, I never found any sewers in dust, where are they :smile:

Nice to see you stuck at it, r_speeds seem to have come down :smile: I like the tunnel lights and that bit between the T spawn and bomb site 2 with the overhanging roof is a big improvement.

Nice to see people are still interested :smile: I find it strange that r_speeds have fallen - although this is a full vis (all of the most recent ones are), the sky is generally above the top of the playing field, to allow for both grenades and the overhanging roof. Thanks for the help, as it stands the only improvement to be made is a slight bug concerning a place where you can get trapped, so this might be the final version (once that has been sorted, obviously)

I'm afraid that if I wish to commit the final release in the next week (which I hope to do) or so, any improvements will either have to be small or critical. This is because, although I realise the rest of you also have work and slog on through it, I'm doing mock GCSEs at the moment and if I don't do well the s**t is really going to hit the fan

So, keep the help coming! I want this to be as good as it can be! :smile:

[EDIT] beerhunter, I am extremely pleased that you liked the overhanging-roof bit. I was worried that area looked far too boring, and so I had put quite a bit of work (for me) into making it look better. Thanks :biggrin:

No problem on the help :smile: but i would concentrate on exams, you can always do a final map release after doing them.

cya

Edit like 5 textures and your map will avoid 99% of all negative criticism.

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

This is my take on de_duststorm. I am not much of a CS player, so I will not attempt to evaluate game play. What fallows is likely to be a harsh, but honest, technical evaluation from a mapping and esthetic stand point. For the most part I will not waste your time with positive comments, sticking instead to what needs improvement.



The texture on the edge of that door just does not match the predominant texture. Yuck!



Just a bit of an error in brush work.



What the hell is that supposed to be anyway? Not only is it random, it appears to serve no purpose but to increase w_poly.



First off, this is a very large, very boring expanse of wall, but that singular window just makes it look even worse. Generally, if a building has windows, there are more than one.



I hate crates to begin with, but this bottom one in particular is gigantic! The least you could do would be to use a different texture on some of those insipid cubes.



Your r_s are unacceptable. 1900 for an area with such miniscule detail is criminal.



The sewers are a good addition to the bland dust theme, and could be a really cool area. My main problem with them is that the darkness is not in proportion to the lighting provided. Those lights look as though they should be allot brighter than they are. you would be better served with pools of bright light in the darkness than the horribly uniform dimness you have in fact achieved.



I do like that flicker effect.



Once again, your r_s are unacceptably high for no apparent reason? evidence of a layout that did not consider the constraints of the engine.



Finaly, I really like this area. My only beef is that you could have used rubble from the caved in roof instead of those heinous crates.

Final word: lighting needs lots of work. Yes, I know deserts are brightly lit, but you don?t even have any shadows! Consider an evening theme; a low reddening sun with street lights or torches creating pools of light in the shadows? over all the brushwork is quite good, as well as the technical aspects of texturing. But for god?s sake man, put in some vis-blockers! Something is going very wrong in that department. GL and keep at it :smile:

Excellent post, Tracer. That was right on the mark.

The sewer is an absolutely inspired addition - a perfect place to use NVGs, and it breaks up the standard Dust atmosphere.

When I see the broken-roof place, I know that you can do better on some areas that are clearly lacking (see the one-window wall). Don't use the prefab (?) ladders, they are eating polies. Find out the nuances of blocking VIS - I suspect you didn't seperate the areas with SKY brushes, because there appears to be no major flaw with layout visibility.

1. Yes, I should DEFINITELY use a much more faded texture for the door edges. Work is in progress :smile:
2. Brush error: Easily fixed, I'll put some sand sloping down and away from it.
3. Random concrete things: Yes, these appear random, but I decided to try and use something other than crates to be used as decent cover. The point was that the terrorists have been around for a while, and made an effort to fortify one or two places in case of a counter-terrorist assault. If others also think that this is detrimental to the health of the map, it will be changed, but it is more for the purposes of gameplay than anything else.
4. Ah, this! Yes, the window DOES make it look worse, but that is actually a connectivity/gameplay aid. The point is, all of the windows that are slightly ajar can be broken and then used to fire through at enemy forces. Unfortunately, as you so rightly pointed out, this makes it look bland - the problem is that that wall is a seperating wall, with no available bulk in the middle to allow for the prospect of windows. Never the less, I will try and find a way to improve it and make it look less bland.
5. Damn! Those crates are the same size as some of the dust ones, which were huge themselves. Is it really that bad? Insipid cubes, eh? :wink: OK, I'll try and find a fitting texture - possibly I will make my own - but I am afraid I can promise nothing.
6. I think the rs here are because you can see into the broken-roof area, the SAM site AND where you are currently sitting. Cassius made an excellent point here - I am afraid I removed all of the seperating sky brushes I had because they were creating HORRIBLE visibility problems with the broken-roof - you should be able to see it from the entire above-ground map due to it's nature, but with the seperators you can only see parts of it D:
7: Sewer lights: I was wondering when someone would mention this :wink: Yeah, as it stands, the "WHITE" is far too bright for the light around it. I'll position a seperate light_spot for each light, so that the darkness is maintained while the lights look sensible
8: Area with high rs: Hmm...I'm not sure about this, although I have an idea. An experiment with hint brushes shall commence.
9: Crates --> Rubble: Gah! Everyone says this...and for good reason. I have tried and tried to re-create some sort of rubble effect as of that seen under the destroyed arch, but never with any success. I'll have another go shortly.
10: Lighting: I think I may know why this is - my sky brush edges are flush with the tops of the walls, which would result in a look of shadows? This will need a great deal of consideration. While I would, in fact, love to have the entire map a lot moodier with a dark desert sky and lit torches on the walls, I'm not sure if I myself am capable of pulling this off. Again, I think I shall try once I have backed up the RMF. The lighting would always be bright enough to see without NVGs - i.e. brighter than the sewers - the torches on the walls would be more for effect than visibility. I can see myself liking this, actually, thankyou tracer :biggrin:
Cassius: The ladders are in fact my own creation, because I basically vowed not to use prefabs in any released map. However, I think you and others who have comented on it may be right. Once more, once the RMF is backed up I'll try it and see if it looks particularly bad - if not, I will use texture ladders.

Thanks for the critiques, the map is being overhauled (once my mocks have finished). Any further help would still be appreciated!

Being in the desert and all, perhaps instead of "RANDOM CURVED LUMPS OF CONCRETE" you could put some bads filled with sand or "sand-bags" if you will.

Fix that damn environment lighting and the map will look far better.

Try adding buttresses to some of the walls for variation, if more windows are out fo the question.

Is it just me or is the sky very washed out looking?

Nice work so far. :smile:

If you took the far wall and cut it in half horizontally, then "recessed" the top part a bit so it looked like it was two stories with a balcony around the edge (not sure if that's clear), this part might look a little better. Basically, move the top half of the wall farther back and see how it looks.

just a thought , the amount of crates u have there is quite excessive , each adding 6 or more polys, take away the crates that are "stacked" on top of the other crates and put the null texture on the bottom of the rest, i've never understood crates, but i suggest they are used for cover and enhanced gameplay rather then adding much to decoration so where you have 5 or 6 crates in one place , 1 or 2 would suffice, also bsp cuts up brushes every 240 units i think it is , so all these open areas are causing Many unwanted polys and in the end would only annoy players when people start awp-whorin, dont forget brushes that touch other brushes cut them up so where possible (crates, pillars etc.) raise them 1 unit from the floor, i think this is a great attempt at spicing up dust but the rspeeds would put anyone off, even if they had a pro rig :/ good luck

the problem is that that wall is a seperating wall, with no available bulk in the middle to allow for the prospect of windows.

Could bring the bottom portion of the wall forward if there's enough room though.

Hmm...
Sandbags I am very keen to do, and I think I will. I just need to make sure they good.
The crates are for cover, and I would have thought they are suitable considering:
a) This map is based on de_dust, god of all crate-overkills
b) Not all the crates are just "cover" - those who can keep their head in a firefight should be able to use the explosive properties of the green crates in mind.
However, these are all good points. I am toying with part of alien_sniper's idea - instead of recessing the entire wall, I might make a doorway from the next area that goes onto a balcony onto which that window opens (running along the wall). There would be a set of stairs coming down from the balcony into the area behind the sandbags. Hmmm...
Thankyou, as I said this is all extremely helpful considering this is my first map - I want it to be as good as it can be!

Great map and fun to play IF the PCs are fast enough. I played this against my brother the other day over a LAN and it was brilliant. Nonetheless, I agree that those fortifications should be removed, they don't serve any great purpose in my experience! One idea for the lighting in the sewers MAY (emphasis on may because I'm about to suggest something horrible) be solved by the use of light_spots. I've always found these useful for "patchy" lighting. Also, it could be an idea to let some light in with grates so the light comes from outside. func_illusionaries could help you here for a bit more detail and atmosphere.

Hope this helps.

P.S. This gives me an idea for a sewer based map. Would you object?

Why would suggesting light_spot's be horrible? they are very usefull and not to be avoided.

indeed , but i always prefer tex lights specially when u've already got the light fittings

Light spots are being worked, but they will not be very bright - experimentation has found they look far more unnatural when it is too bright, and ruins the point of the sewers in the first place. And I'm afraid that grates have to be refused point blank; I don't think it would suit the map, to be entirely honest.
The architecture in that area has been noticably improved, with fantastic results, while the random concrete blocks have been replaced with pretty sandbags.
And why would I object? I didn't invent sewers, after all.

Tracer Bullet said:
Why would suggesting light_spot's be horrible? they are very usefull and not to be avoided.

Safety device.

Personally, I've always found it wuite difficult to use a light_spot effectively and correctly.