Glad i could help... :sad:

lol B4 should be the last of the 'quick' updates, as far as I can tell. Anything else that will be done to the map after that will be eye candy in areas that players can't reach, unless some gameplay issue forces a B5 before I'm finished. I don't want to drag it out too much, so probably within the next week or two, depending on how much free time I have.

Glad i could help... :sad:

Your map seams to be progressing quickly. Any guess on when you'll have a final.

Redwood, everything that you mentioned has already been taken care of for b4, other than giving the engy a safe place to defend the intel on his own. But, for the sake of keeping the 'team' element alive, that's not going to happen.

I'll post the updated version soon.

I finally got a chance to play your map with some people. (Though there wasn't enough people to get a real game going.)

To keep things short i going to start by agreeing with everything that Riven said. He was spot on with everything he said.

Over all when i was inside i have to say that i felt cramped. The ceiling were a good hight, but i was often bumping into walls. In the end i don't think it will kill the the game play but i sagest some heavy player clipping. (the capture room, like Riven said)

I agree that the intel seams out of place.

My biggest complaint came when i was playing as a engineer. I was trying to guard the intel and I never found a good place for the sentry.

Outside i was getting stuck on the rocks. Between the rock wall and the large model rocks.

If you ask me, as long as you forget the snipers, the cover out side is ample. Maybe add a little cover for entering and exiting the shed leading to the under ground section.
As for the snipers, its a little to easy to sit back and pick off people without really being in danger. Evan rockets at that rage are easy to doge. Maybe you can find a way to limit their range of view. or maybe add a path out side that is covered mostly from the sniper fire.

I heard someone say they had a hard time figuring out the layout of the map. I found myself get turned around every once in a while.

Before i left i asked what every thought of the map and every one said they like it. (like 4 people left at this point).
And you got one "I wish i could make maps like this" comment.

Hope this helps.
Keep it up, this is on its way to being a good one.

I didn't mean to insult you, I just hope you understand where I'm coming from

lol Riven, no worries. I actually agree with a lot of what you said.

Smoothing out the collision in the capture room is something that I'll do. With the glass being breakable, I don't want someone to die while they're about to cap just because they got snagged. I don't mind if they die because someone got a decent shot in, but not because of a snag.

I'm reluctant to add any more detail outside, as the framerates are already relatively low out there.(with my vid card, anyway) And you're right about being in a big black bow, btw. There's no night sky for tf2, so I made a big black box inside the 3d skybox, turned it to a func_something, and disabled it's shadows to allow the env_light to get through. I tried adding sprites as stars, but by the time I had enough of them in place, the map would hang while loading. I'm hoping to have at least a big moon made for the final. As for outside lighting, I don't want to make anywhere any darker, and a full moon might explain some areas not being as dark as they should be atm.

The placement of the intel has been something that I've repeatedly held off from thinking about. Having it inside a vault would mean an extra door, creating another choke point to contend with. Maybe a partly open vault door, with an intel sign above it, and the intel lying on a table outside roughly where it is now, would be a reasonable compromise.

Other things that I've been asked to look at are the benches in the 'stairs' respawn. Apparently they were getting in the way of some people, so they've been moved back against the wall. I've also been asked to make the capture zone more obvious. The signs dont have a 'capture zone' skin, only 'control point', and I'm told that's too confusing. But unless the sign model is one of the tf2 models that refuses to decompile, then I don't see a problem making a fix.

Thanks to everyone that's had a look, and please, don't be put off from telling me if there's something that you find off, even if you do think it's only nit-picking. After all, no-one likes to have nits. :smile:

Glad to see this map getting finalized! Awesome work Fishy! The gameplay is superb. Before I begin though, with all due respect Fishy, I'm just telling you what I think about the map, not telling you how to map :biggrin: . I know you have more experience in this than I do, so I won't bore you; here we go! :

I'll admit, the outside seems a bit too open, perhaps some pillars outside the door to run around would sponsor some turret defenses to take out enemies looking to waltz right through the front and without being taken out from across the map.
I believe that the capture rooms look and feel fine, but because they are so cramped, it is very easy to get caught-up on the models and things. I believe it wouldn't hurt if you built player clip brushes to cover the odd collision models of all that detail, and make the journey of a rushing scout in there a lot more enjoyable, instead of getting caught up on a console, and getting killed by that last desperate rocket from the soldier chasing you.

The lighting indoors is fine, I really didn't take the time to analyze it that much, but it is the outdoors that caught me off guard. Did you use some filler lights around the ground outside?, because the darkness of the sky seems SOO out of place compared to the lighting on the ground. I think it would be much more dramatic if you lowered the environmental light just that much more, to make those areas with direct light stand out more. (you could also afford to make them a little more interesting). Honestly, when I went outside for the first time, I thought I was in a large cave installation, and after looking up at the sky I still didn't feel convinced. I felt like I was located in a big black box.

The night sky lacks any kind of detail. Besides it being too black, it was just emitting too much light to convince me it was some time of night, or whether I was on earth or not :razz: .

One more gameplay issue: The importance of the intelligence "flags" are nonexistent. Their placement seems like an afterthought. I assume that if an engineer wanted to, he could build a turret right in front of that console it sits on and you would never be able to rush in there to take it unless that turret was destroyed. You couldn't formulate any kind of plan. But beyond that, it's easy to miss. I think you need to place it on the floor or on some kind of table. Does the fact that its a briefcase and not a flag mean anything to you? Work with what Valve has given you; play with the setting/story a bit more. To sit back and call it a "2fort type map" is just settling for less. If you built a vault off of that room and put the briefcase in there, that would signify obviously its importance in this "world" You obviously have some kind of setting here, Don't just give up on it in some places. the outside with its dark theme should carry on inside. Add some dark corners, or empty spaces filled with cobwebs. I will say this: The map is top-notch and most of what I just stated is a bit nit-picky; The theme indoors is a bit generic, and that's ok IMO, I just think you could do more with it.

Final thoughts:

• Outside needs to be darker to contrast with the lighted areas (add more obvious spotlights along the road)
• Make the briefcase a little more obvious
• Make the capture room easier to move through

Once again Fishy, thanks for listening, I didn't mean to insult you, I just hope you understand where I'm coming from. :smile:

What is this place and what's different from all the other TF2 bunkers?

In a nutshell, nowhere and nothing. It's just a small generic 2fort type map. What I have added is a couple of small buildings in the middle map to block snipers lines of sight to the enemy base main door. Sort of like a frontier/border crossing with barriers over the road, so maybe ctf_frontier could be an apt release name. They should also help to provide more general cover for mid map fighting.



I'm not so keen on them being wooden huts, so no doubt I'll remake them in concrete.

I almost walked past the intel. I think perhaps it needs better spotlighting.
The central area feels a little open for TF2 standards, perhaps a big rock monolith or something would alleviate this? Also, are we supposed to be able to break a few of the windows on the control room? I guess it could be fun to snipe someone just as theyre expecting to capture :biggrin:

(BTW I like the fact your cap point is separate to the intelligence itself, the new setup as shown in 2fort sucks, IMO)

Everything else I can't really comment upon - I feel you could perhaps stretch to the 24 player load, it is larger than it looks in the pictures.

Beautiful. It could still need some spice.

What I'm missing is some central landmark. Something memorable. This is nitpicking on the highest level, of course. But I could imagine the fact that the map hasn't received a name yet has the same source as my complaint about the lack of a visual landmark or theme.

Maybe you can incorporate a bit of a story. What is this place and what's different from all the other TF2 bunkers?

If you manage to come up with something original to give this place a little more purpose (or make the purpose more obvious) it would probably improve the atmosphere.

Umm... Well, what can i say. Its looks wonderful. I don't have much to say.

The room in the center pic could use some some tweaking. (im sure you will). The rock ceiling in the corner looks a little awkward. Maybe have it jet up a little instead of down?

The first and second pics are a little flushed white.

The wire texture in the third pic seams a bit fuzzy. Maybe scale it down a bit. (just nitpicking)

The road overlay in the last pic seams a bit blocky. (nitpicking again)

I have downloaded it and i'll get on TF2 and play it some time soon so i can give the game play a try.