sp_undeadarena

I'm looking for comments. I know this map needs a lot of work
(especially with lighting which, aside from those lights on the outside
of the building, I haven't touched) but I thought I'd get a thread up
so I could post progress shots and keep myself motivated.

Things to do:

-Finish the building in which the player starts (you can see the corner of it on the right side of the first screenshot)

-Add an entrance to the tiny sewer area which will hold health kits and a poison headcrab or two.

-Add one more cliff to close off the level

-Fix the cobblestone paths that currently criss cross the map with no real plan

-Displace all the grass

-Add info_nodes

-Do all the lighting

-Dirty the map up with decals (graffiti, stains, blood)

-Add dead bodies

-Add another soundscape or two

-Add items and weapons

-Add props

Additional shots at this point (alpha 8):





Please, if you have anything to say (anything at all) please
share. I want to make this as good as I can, so don't hold back
on the criticism. Thanks for looking!

Edit: Updated the map profile shots so I put the ones I replaced here:

/me likes :rolleyes:

The lighting is actually pretty ok, depending on the "feeling" you want to add.

Maybe some spotlights here and there outside, from the top of the building to the grass. And also some red lights inside might look good.

That wall on the shed or whatever going into the cliff looks (very) odd.
Maybe you should try to make the cliff flat, so the wall goes flat in too.


Add some props to the grass! Fountains, barrels, bench, flower-beds (Whatever you call them in English :rolleyes: ). And trees! With swings... Might not fit in though :razz: . You name it... Displacements only won't help it .

Nice map overall! Dont change the lighting too much, i think it looks good.

Why are people so obsessed with zombies? IMHO there are much more interesting enemies in HL2. On the other hand complaining about zombies in a zombies map isn't that constructive... it's just something general I noticed. The architecture looks quite ok already, maybe you should add some trims and borders to the walls as they sometimes look too flat.

I don't agree with the red lights. Red lights are annoying and I find them to fit only in spots where you expect red lights to be in the real world: Near dangerous places where they are used as some kind of "warning sign". Get rid of the grey/white/bluish lighting for interiors. Try to use strong yellows to add some warmth and contrast to the lighting.

(I only hope this works as I have never used another thumbs before to post a critique. If its ugly, I apologize in advance)

javascript:void(0)


The swirly/curvy architecture looks good but, you may run into a clash if you mix it with the wrong texture sets. In this shot, you have rock walls with an industrial texture set above. IMO it clashes, BUT since I cannot see it all except in this screen, it might work out alright elsewhere.


In this shot, the thing that sticks out is the building in the background. Its not built wrong, its textured... differently. I would try different sets. You might eventually come back to this one but at least try another one. I like the architecture in the front area here. It looks well made. I also like the dim light levels, at least in so far as the screenshot. Sometimes an ingame level is contrary. A few displacements on the ground couldn't hurt. It looks like a tennis court in its flatness.


Run for the hills. There be crabs hereabouts.


Everything in this shot looks superb... Except the ceiling. Its horrible. Trying to make a flat plane look less flat by adding wood is not a good idea. Yeah, it looks OK if you have a castle, but this is not a castle. Try to create some depth by making varying degrees of elevation. Shafts work wonders, as well as a few fans.


Those dips in the wall back yonder, make a few of them deeper, break up the pattern you have going so its less repetitive. I would also think about making the area more diverse in texture choices. Having a wall for instance thats two levels high, with contrasting textures looks better than one 30 foot tall monotonal wall.


This shot looks excellent except... The grounds to flat again. I would also think about how the building is in the rock walls. Usually building show some form of intrusion when built into a wall of rock. Perhaps some cracks or maybe a barrier wall to "hold back" the rocks that are crumbling off. Your building slides in as if its having sex or something.

/2 cents

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Well its looks amazing and it has the spookyness just like the hl2 did in zombie infested level. Should be exciting map for improving you gameplay but you need to keep it interesting considering you just fighting zombies so needs the atosmosphere.

Anyone seen Morphine lately?

I am waiting patiently for him to rate one of my maps for this critique. :biggrin:

BTW folks, the asking price for one of my critiques is one map rating. Preferably, one you have looked at.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Hey Oprheus, I was gone all weekend and just got back.

Thank you for your feedback, I was hoping you'd give me some comments on my screenshots, so thank you for doing so!

Here's my response:

-Originally the curvy walls were crete textured, and I got some
feedback saying ot spice it up -- get creative with the textures.
I thought the stone textures looked decent, but I could be wrong.
I'll explore other texture choices (same goes for the yellow building
in the background).

-The grass is flat, and I plan on displaceing it all once I've finished
off the buildings (there are still a couple to be built).

-Despite what the screenshot may suggest, the beams across the garage
ceiling are made out of concrete and not wood. It may be clearer
in game -- but I'll look for a new texture. As for adding shafts,
I'm not exactly sure what you mean.

-I didn't like the wall with all the supports, and I will definitely change them around -- like you said its very boring,

-I'll change how the rock intersects with the little booth near the wall.

Once again, thanks for looking and giving me feedback. I'll also try to download and rate one of your maps.

@HazardGameR^ -- I will definitely change the way that small building
looks. Also, I definitely plan on adding spotlights when I do my
lighting pass. I think the long shadows will loook good.

@reaper47 -- thanks for your comments. I haven't done the lighting yet, but I will keep your comments in mind when i do.

@gorami -- thanks for your comment. I'll make sure to keep the
gameplay exciting and varied. I'm thinking the only weapons I'll
be adding are prop_physics and the shotgun. I'm also planning on
releasing the VMF when I'm done so that people can tweak the entities
and change the level to suit their tastes.

I'll post more screens soon -- and hopefully you'll see the progress. Thanks all.

Despite the apparent lack of progress, I've still been working on
this. Mostly on the main building that isn't really ready to be
shown yet, but I've also been working on the sewer entrance and I've
also done some of the terrain.

There's too much of the map open to the void right now for a compile,
but here's a hammer shot of the terrain and sewer entrance.



I'll show more soon -- expect more progress this weekend.

What I like about this is it seems so clean (with regards texturing and structure), lots of nice lines and defined edges, if you know what I mean :smile: The architecture looks great too. But whats the setting? Where is it exactly? It doesnt look especially coherent in that regard. I know its already been commented on, but I think some moody lighting could really help to address this issue.

---

Hello there.

Thanks for the kind words SpiKeRs, I really appreciate it.

As for the setting, I originally just wanted to create a simple arena
with simple architecture -- nothing more than a glorified and expanded
killbox where one could fight wave after wave of zombies. The
original concept looked like this:



As I expanded the arena I decided to depart from the arena feel and go
for a more realistic theme. The original concept shot evolved
into the outside of a garage loading bay, with the yellow industrial
building next door.

It continued to evolve into an industrial area in a small valley.
I'm pretty happy with the yellow building and the inside of the garage,
and I really like the way the outside of the garage looks (its the
stone building with the crazy pillars) but I'm afraid the outside of
the garage no longer fits with my industrial theme. I do like how
it looks, so I don't want to part with it, but if you think it's too
jarring and confusing for the theme I'd consider reworking it.

Right now I'm working on adding another building similar to the yellow
one and making it larger and have it be a combination warehouse office
complex. It's opposite the sewer entrance.

You're right, I haven't done any lighting passes yet, but once I do
perhaps it everything will look more unified. I'm considering
adding fog as well, but I don't know exactly how that will look.

I still have a lot to do, but thanks for the comments.

Hey everyone,

As I promised, I've used my time this weekend to get enough work done
on the map to get another compile in. I took plenty of shots to
share with you.

Please please PLEASE give me as
much criticism and comments as you can. I want to hear what looks like
rubbish, what needs changing, what small details I can add to make this
level really come to life. I haven't really made a detail pass yet,
but any suggestions will really help.

The first shot is an overhead view of the map. Obviously the map
is not very big, but at this point I'd rather release a small map
rather than not releasing a larger map at all.



Right now the map has a figure 8 layout (the stone building on the left
is accessible, but the red building on the right isn't, so you can only
run around it).

The next shot is in the sewer. You can see the broken great which
allows you to drop in quickly, but forces you to leave through the
pipe. I'll be adding some ammo and a few headcrabs to this area
before its done.



Notice how half the pipe is dark and the other light? I know it has to
do with how models in Source can only take one light source, but it's
annoying and I'm not sure how I'm going to fix it. I'll probably have
to do a workaround with light entities to balance out the pipe
brightnesses.

The next shot is my favorite (if I do say so myself) and its of the
sewer pipe exit and the red building I've added since the last compile.



The light glow is too bright, I will tone it down greatly next compile.

Same area different angle:



A little to the left:



The glows are gross.

A reverse shot from the same area to put it in perspective with the rest of the level:



Another reverse shot this time from the other side of the building:



Wide shot of the red building:



Right side of the red building:



I'll probably be replacing the dev textured area with a brick warehouse.

Reverse angle:



I fixed up the little shack so it doesn't look like its having sex with the cliff :razz:



Issues I'm aware of:

• I had forgotten about the displacement paint alpha bug, so for
  the next compile I'll invert everything so that it'll look the way I
  intended. Right now its grassy next to the paths and cliffs, and
  muddy in the open areas, which is obviously the opposite of what I
  wanted.</li>
• The light glows are way too bright. I'll play around with the settings until I get a much subtler glow.
• I have a big orange wall behind the red building. I need to
  figure out what to do with it... but I'm leaning towards a brick
  warehouse and some more cliffs.</li>

Stuff I'll work on for the next pass:

• The inside of the garage needs to be reworked. Mostly the pillars that Orpheus pointed out in the intro.
  </li>
• Lighting, lighting, lighting. I'll be adding spotlights to spice up the buildings and the open areas.
• Decals. Gonna need to splash some blood, bullet holes, and burn marks here and there to make this a true zombie level.
• Props. I'll be dirtying everything up with some
  prop_physics debris and general trash. Prop_ragdoll dead bodies
  will also be added.
  
  </li>
• NPC's and items. Once I finish up all the level design
  stuff I'll be adding the zombies, ammo, guns, and a couple of survivors
  to possibly fight alongside as long as you can keep them alive.</li>

Thanks for reading this long update!

The bright lights fit well, since it is a warehouse-ish area, to be able to see people coming towards the entrances of the place, they'd have very bright lights ... however, you should be able to see WHAT the light is coming from. :smile:

The grated ceiling is hideous and needs some sort of support system (here's a good chance to mess with physics!!)

I like the shot of the shack the most. Probably because of arch on the door way. It looks good though.

The difference in the shots of just the architecture to the shots with the lighting is really impressive. Not that you put the arch. shots in this thread.

By the way, are the buildings enter able? Because, this doesn't look too large, and you could flesh out the buildings to make it a bit more interesting while playing.

But, I guess we're not at the "functionality" stage yet, huh? :smile:

---

Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

You seem to like the non-flat walls. It's a great-looking thing, but make sure you put clip brushes in the corners to smooth out the walls so players dont get stuck on the walls. You know how annoying that stuff is.

The map LOOKS great. I can't really playtest it ATM, AtM, but I can tell you that it looks EXCELLENTLY designed and my only other recommendation is that you add more tiny details, like small plants and smaller throwable, moveable rocks. Also, on any stone walls or concrete, use Displacements.

Lookin' Good, Bro.

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Thanks for the comments Nickel. I'll definitely make sure that
the walls are clipped to prevent the player getting stuck. I
wouldn't want a backpeddling player whose running away from a fast
zombie to get stuck on a pillar.

As soon as the map is playtestable, I'll put up a download. I wouldn't expect anything for a few more weeks though.

I noticed you posted in the Intro chapter, did you manage to take a look at the First Alpha chapter?

I'm liking your new red warehouse a lot more than the original stone building. The red warehouse features tried and tested architecture that is utterly believable, but the rather odd design of the stone building kind of undermines the realism and makes the map feel a bit lost.

From the overhead and the odd glimpses in the screenshots, the 90 degree rigidity of the paths is ugly. I can completely see why you've done it (lines up with your displacements, makes texture alignment, on what would be a rather tough to align texture, far easier) and it is excusable, but I think even just introducing short 45 degree sections at the corners could help matters.

Something else to consider would be banking the paths/roads a bit (not just the pitch either - rolling them sideways a bit could be cool), so they aren't completely flat, as well as putting in smoother transitions between different gradients so that its not the currently obvious flat->banked->flat that it currently is. You might be best off making the paths into displacements to achieve this, as otherwise it could get tricky and awkward with lots of cutting into triangles and vertex manipulation, but it depends on the extent of roughness you wanted to introduce. Something else that strikes me about the paths is that you have fairly size sidewalks on either side and a tiny little paved section between them - seems a bit wierd to me, as a path that thin would have no need for sidewalks. I think that the road may look better if set into the terrain rather than sat on top of it too, perhaps extend the width of it a bit and have a non-straight line edge to it as well, so that the entire road part is always exposed but there is some buffer area that has a non-smooth edge to it. Not sure if you know what I mean, so here's a demonstration of a more interesting road...



The light glows are a bit strong, but as Crono says it kinda works. Tone it down a bit definately, but don't go too far. Try and introduce a tinge of colour too, as very few lights are such pure white. Don't necessarily get tempted to go all out colourful, but just a very subtle hint would help. In general the map could use more light fixtures too.

In the last shot of the shack, you could afford to smoothen that arch a bit.

More clutter will make things much nicer, and don't be afraid to use liberal amounts of overlays to break up repetitive textures a bit.

---

[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

Looks pretty good so far. One thing that gets to me is the complete
absence of detail sprites. Are you having trouble with them aswell or
just didn't want em in there?

@Crono: I'll fiddle with the glow settings until I find something that works.

Yes, I agree that sewer area looks weak. I'll go back and try to
figure out how to make it more believable. I'll probably put some
steel support beams in or something along those lines.

Right now the only building that's enterable is the big ugly stone
building. The red warehouses are not at this point, but that may
change as I keep working on the map. I wanted to start off with
the buildings closed, just because I may leave the buildings closed off.

I know we talked about this last night, but I definitely want to investigate the points system you talked about.

And you guessed it, not quite functional yet :smile:

@ReNo: Yeah I completely agree about the buildings. The Warehouse
isn't very unique, but at the same time the realism works better than
the other building across the way. After your comment and Spikers
comment I think I'm just going to redo the original stone building and
make it into a brick garage type building that better fits into the
realistic theme I have right now. The stone building is just a
vestige of my original plans for the map, which have since changed.

Yeah -- the pathways and roads are some of the weakest parts of my
map. I don't know why I didn't go and displace them, I guess I
was just afraid of how I was going to deal with the displacement
textures if they were curved. I guess I'll just make the
displacements overlap to give it the curve on the roads.

You're right, the cobbled paths don't make much sense the way they are now, I'll play with the textures a bit.

Thanks for the shot of that road, I'll definitely try to capture what you've got going on in the 3D view.

I'll make the changes to the light glows and the arch.

I will definitely make an overlay pass once I'm completely satisfied with the architecture and lighting.

Thanks a lot guys for the comments! If anyone else has something to add, please don't be afraid to speak up.

You mean on the grass? I hadn't given it much thought but the
blend texture I'm using right now doesn't have the grass sprites...
towards the end of development I may look into how to edit the vtf file
to get it to work. Thanks for pointing that out.

I am finding it difficult to envision a one area single player event. How are you planning on this unfolding?

I will comment on the screens soonish.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Basically, this area is just an arena for freeroaming zombie fun.
The player will start out in one area of the map with no weapons, with
zombies approaching, and will have to explore the map (in whatevevr
order he sees fit) to find weapons and ammunition. There will be
limited ammunition and health and I'm considering adding a points
system (I hope this is possible) to see how long the player can
survive, since there will be wave after wave of approaching zombies
thanks to the npc_maker entity (and some areas that hold ammo will
trigger fast zombies to leap over the walls and attack, for
example). Once the ammo is depleted the player will have to rely
on the gravity gun and the crowbar... although there will be a chance
for more weapons and ammo based on a reward system. Crono's idea
was that after a certain amount of zombies are killed a new weapon will
become
available, or an NPC will join the fight with the main character.
Hopefully this can be easily accomplished with math counters and
triggers. I'll have to look into it.

I'll likely release the VMF once I'm done so that others can change the
entity settings and customize the level to fit their needs, although
the number of people willing to recompile a map is probably slim to
none.

If this map turns out ill suited to Singleplayer fun, I can try to
redevelop it as a DM map. Although, that would require more
thought into adding z-axis gameplay and would probably involve
hollowing out the buildings.

javascript:void(0)



No insult intended but, this looks amazingly like a box thats been filled in with stuff. I know that thats not really the case but it does none the less. My advice, take a look at the top down image of this map. It is essentially a box filled with stuff too but, it has non-accessible vistas to make it appear larger than it is. You need something besides a sky to give this map the advantage of roominess. Break the box and give the players something to look at.



The two things that strike me first in this shot are both realism items. 1st, the grating is much to thick. Real world grating like that would weigh a few metric tonnes. Make it a bit thinner. 2nd, canals have steeply sloping sides. This helps prevent debris from accumulating on the edges due to slowing water. If you are going to have vertical sides, add more piles of debris. Especially in the corners. Eddies draw debris by the currents of the water flowing slower in them. That pile of whatever in the center, probably wouldn't be there.



Here again reality is kicking you in the butt. The pathway leads right up to the wall. Why? Also, since I have not been inside the map I cannot tell for sure but it appears as if the tree in the center is growing over top of a tunnel or a hollow place under the map. If you are intending to retain the path, place some sort of a fence, or a hedgerow to make it distinct and PLANNED. A fence/barrier on the upper level above the path couldn't hurt either. I am also not liking the blue tint to the map. Night time tends to be such but, your light sources are white, yet they have no indication on the ground beneath them. The light sprite is glowing massively, yet its dark under the doorway. Its almost as if the glow is preventing the light from reaching the ground.



The retainer wall that separates the upper from the lower area seems a bit thick. Also, would it really be flush with the grass in a real world area? Also, the building needs some air vents. Factories generate heat. You need some air exchange.



The dock doors would also have some illumination in a real world setting. The grass is to neat, but I imagine you have plans for that already. Usually, factories have a corporate logo or name someplace. You have one in mind? The windows on the overlook connection between the buildings need to be closer together. Buildings almost always have gutters too. Dock doors almost always have some sort of a conventional entryway beside them. it allows egress without opening that big door.



From this angle, it looks to much like a mirror image between the walls. remove the right hand door and put it beside the dock door as I mentioned earlier. OK, now the critical part. The red and yellow fit fantastically but, the rocks in the center region clash sharply. At least IMO they do. If you can, try to keep the arch things intact but replace the rocks with the red or yellow. See how it looks that way. I'd go for the red personally but its your call.



From this angle, it truly becomes apparent that the rocks are different from the theme you are attempting. Another point, do you expect the people to use the street to travel about the compound? If so, perhaps a painted section for the route is in order. Another thing that truly sticks out in this shot is, the buildings are essentially all on the same plain. You need some variation between them. Look at this shot, the red one, the rock one the yellow one and the white one all are level. This is not a bad thing but it would add a tiny bit of perspective and depth to have them at least not so level. Its true that you have basements but from here, they are not so readily apparent.



Two things stick out. 1st, that path. Its not fitting the theme. 2nd, the buildings. People leave lights on sometimes, even when the shop is closed for the day. Turn on something inside. A computer monitor, or a bathroom light perhaps.



The stairway looks to much like a pit with stairs. Put some grating/fencing around it. Can't see much else from this angle.



One has to ask, Why such a big drainage pipe? It might be beneficial to have a reason other than a route for the fraggers to travel.



This shot shows a real good illustration of that path. It looks like you took a wall texture and placed it sideways upon the ground. There have got to be true path textures. Look for a more appropriate one. The bricks clash with the rocks too. Might be unavoidable but try anyway.

Hope some of this helps.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

I gave the stone building a retexture and toned down the support beams
to try to bring the building back down to reality. I'm not sure
the brick textures complement each other well. Thoughts on
that? Should I get rid of the big supports as well?

Sorry for the not compiling:



Edit: Orpheus I just saw your post... let me reread it and reply.

Critiques are so freaking hard now.

I curse 56k daily. You guys may be tired of my whining about file sizes, but its nothing compared to the reality of sitting here waiting for them to arrive.

Don't forget to download and rate another map. :smile:

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Orpheus said:
Critiques are so freaking hard now.
I curse 56k daily. You guys may be tired of my whining about file
sizes, but its nothing compared to the reality of sitting here waiting
for them to arrive.

Don't forget to download and rate another map. :smile:

I hope the thumbnails help. They should be less than 3kb each, and I
tried to keep the images themselves below 90 (most are 60-80kb).

I'll pay you back with a map rating soon.

Thanks for taking the time to give me such a thorough breakdown of the
map. I appreciate it. Now to address your points:

Orpheus said:
No insult intended but, this looks amazingly like
a box thats been filled in with stuff. I know that thats not really the
case but it does none the less. My advice, take a look at the top down
image of this map. It
is essentially a box filled with stuff too but, it has non-accessible
vistas to make it appear larger than it is. You need something besides
a sky to give this map the advantage of roominess. Break the box and
give the players something to look at.



Truly, the playable
area is very square, but I had hoped the cliffs on the side and the
inaccessible area with the yellow and white buildings and watertower
would prevent the level from feeling too much like a box. I'll go
back and reevaluate how to fix this problem. I'll try to put the
yellow and white buildings on seperate planes from the stone and red
buildings. Putting the whole level on a slant might help.



The two things that strike me first in this shot
are both realism items. 1st, the grating is much to thick. Real world
grating like that would weigh a few metric tonnes. Make it a bit
thinner. 2nd, canals have steeply sloping sides. This helps prevent
debris from accumulating on the edges due to slowing water. If you are
going to have vertical sides, add more piles of debris. Especially in
the corners. Eddies draw debris by the currents of the water flowing
slower in them. That pile of whatever in the center, probably wouldn't
be there.



I agree about the
grating. I'll thin it out and throw some support beams a la Crono's
post. I'll add a slant to the walls and play around with the
displacements to try to make it look more realistic.



Here again reality is kicking you in the butt. The
pathway leads right up to the wall. Why? Also, since I have not been
inside the map I cannot tell for sure but it appears as if the tree in
the center is growing over top of a tunnel or a hollow place under the
map. If you are intending to retain the path, place some sort of a
fence, or a hedgerow to make it distinct and PLANNED. A fence/barrier
on the upper level above the path couldn't hurt either. I am also not
liking the blue tint to the map. Night time tends to be such but, your
light sources are white, yet they have no indication on the ground
beneath them. The light sprite is glowing massively, yet its dark under
the doorway. Its almost as if the glow is preventing the light from
reaching the ground.<br style="color: gold;">


I'm not sure how to change the path to make
it more realistic. Should I add some space between the retainer
wall and the pathway?

I'll move that tree to the right, it doesn't make sense where it is right now, although the tunnel does end with another pipie.

I'm a little afraid to add fences to the
paths because I want to give the player free reign to run wherever he
wants. I don't want him fenced into particular paths, especially
when the paths lead to doors that don't open.

The lighting is very rough right now, I just threw a few in so that
there was something other than the light_environment. You're spot
on though, for the later compiles I'll have to increase the brightness
on the actual lights (they are only at a brightness of 50 right now)
and reduce the glow effect. As for the color of the light
environment, hopefully when I start really working on the lighting the
lights will ward off the gloomy blue moonlight.

The retainer wall that separates the upper from
the lower area seems a bit thick. Also, would it really be flush with
the grass in a real world area? Also, the building needs some air
vents. Factories generate heat. You need some air exchange.



I'll play with the thickness on that retainer
wall. As for being flush with the grass, do you mean that it
should transition to dirt before it hits the wall? That's what I
originally intended but the alpha displacement bug inverted the blend
texture.

I will try to add air
vents as well as other props to the building to bring it to life...
although I wish that I had the CS:S source assets... the stuff from the
cs_assault would be perfect.



The dock doors would also have some illumination
in a real world setting. The grass is to neat, but I imagine you have
plans for that already. Usually, factories have a corporate logo or
name someplace. You have one in mind? The windows on the overlook
connection between the buildings need to be closer together. Buildings
almost always have gutters too. Dock doors almost always have some sort
of a conventional entryway beside them. it allows egress without
opening that big door.



There's a corporate logo right above the
garage door, but it's not very clear. I'll add some lighting to
highlight the company logo.

I'm kind of at a loss for how to make the gress less "neat." Do you mean I should add more noise to the displacements?

I agree, those windows are too wide, I will tighten them up.

Like you suggested, I'll try moving the door over from the side to the front.



From this angle, it looks to much like a mirror
image between the walls. remove the right hand door and put it beside
the dock door as I mentioned earlier. OK, now the critical part. The
red and yellow fit fantastically but, the rocks in the center region
clash sharply. At least IMO they do. If you can, try to keep the arch
things intact but replace the rocks with the red or yellow. See how it
looks that way. I'd go for the red personally but its your call.



I've tentatively retextured the stone building, let me know what you think.



From this angle, it truly becomes apparent that
the rocks are different from the theme you are attempting. Another
point, do you expect the people to use the street to travel about the
compound? If so, perhaps a painted section for the route is in order.
Another thing that truly sticks out in this shot is, the buildings are
essentially all on the same plain. You need some variation between
them. Look at this shot, the red one, the rock one the yellow one and
the white one all are level. This is not a bad thing but it would add a
tiny bit of perspective and depth to have them at least not so level.
Its true that you have basements but from here, they are not so readily
apparent.



Painted section? Do you mean adding a sidewalk of some sort?

Diversifying the
planes will be a hassle but ultimately I will have to do it because
you're right it looks way too amateurish at the moment.



Two things stick out. 1st, that path. Its not
fitting the theme. 2nd, the buildings. People leave lights on
sometimes, even when the shop is closed for the day. Turn on something
inside. A computer monitor, or a bathroom light perhaps.



I'll try to give the
illusion of inside illumination. If I do decide to hollow out the
buildings then this problem will be solved.



The stairway looks to much like a pit with stairs. Put some grating/fencing around it. Can't see much else from this angle.



I'll put a small
fence around the pit, just to stop people from falling in. It was
a bitch to get the displacements to fit around the stairwell and still
sew together, so I don't want to touch the actual dimensions of the
stairwell.



One has to ask, Why such a big drainage pipe? It
might be beneficial to have a reason other than a route for the
fraggers to travel.



I can't come up with
a good reason for the huge drainage pipe. I'm open to any
suggestions, although ultimately I think the player is just gonna have
to suspend their disbelief. Hopefully the headcrabs will distract
them.



This shot shows a real good illustration of that
path. It looks like you took a wall texture and placed it sideways upon
the ground. There have got to be true path textures. Look for a more
appropriate one. The bricks clash with the rocks too. Might be
unavoidable but try anyway.



As per yours and
ReNo's comments the path texture is now due to be replaced. Do
you think a dirt path would suffice or do I need to put some real
concrete pathways in?



I don't think much
can be done about the clashing brick and stone textuers. I'll
splatter some blood on the stones and see if that helps. :smile:



Hope some of this helps.

Of course it did, thank you for taking the time.

Addicted to Morphine said:
I hope the thumbnails help. They should be less than 3kb each, and I tried to keep the images themselves below 90 (most are 60-80kb).

I'll pay you back with a map rating soon.

Thanks for taking the time to give me such a thorough breakdown of the map. I appreciate it. Now to address your points:

The thumbs help sure, but I do have to link to everything at least once in order to write any critique. So, however many steps it takes me to achieve this, its all through a 56k connection. "thumb>full image>my thoughts>coded to final result".

You also do realize that anything I type can be "Vetoed", right? It might dampen my spirits a bit about being so forthcoming next time, but as long as you have a good reason I won't hold it against you.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Orpheus</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext><BR style="COLOR: gold">
I'm not sure how to change the path to make it more realistic. Should I add some space between the retainer wall and the pathway?

I'd consider making the pathway either more real looking, or less real, such as a dirt path. For all we know, this instillation might be still in the process of being built and the paths are yet to be completed.

I'm kind of at a loss for how to make the grass less "neat." Do you mean I should add more noise to the displacements?

I am not sure if you can implement it, but some of that tall spindly grass would definitely messy it up a bit.

I've tentatively retextured the stone building, let me know what you think.

[color=red]IMO, bricks don't belong in this map. So... The tentative red bricks clash as much as the rocks did/do.

[/color]
Painted section? Do you mean adding a sidewalk of some sort?

You know, some roadways have bike routes along the edge? well a similar path could be cordoned off for pedestrians.

I'll try to give the illusion of inside illumination. If I do decide to hollow out the buildings then this problem will be solved.

[color=red]Hollow a small section behind a window. Make the glass slightly opaque and put a light inside. The glass will be unclear enough so no one will see anything but a dim light inside.

[/color]
I can't come up with a good reason for the huge drainage pipe. I'm open to any suggestions, although ultimately I think the player is just gonna have to suspend their disbelief. Hopefully the headcrabs will distract them.

[color=red]You could have a skybox with a dam in the distance and possibly a river to give the impression that flooding is a periodic event to deal with?

[/color]
As per yours and ReNo's comments the path texture is now due to be replaced. Do you think a dirt path would suffice or do I need to put some real concrete pathways in?

[color=red]As I stated above, dirt may work.

[/color]
I don't think much can be done about the clashing brick and stone textures. I'll splatter some blood on the stones and see if that helps.

[color=red]Sure you can, lose the bricks in favor of sheet metal. :biggrin:

[/color]

</div></div>

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The best things in life, aren't things.

I only vetoed one suggestion, the one about fencing parts of the
pathways off, because I agreed with the other comments you made.
The map is early enough in development that any glaring problems are
just that, glaring problems that definitely need changing and
fixing. Later on when the comments and suggestions become
personal preference things with niggling details, then I'll probably
veto more stuff.

To be honest, I like the little brick building. It doesn't make
much sense (although I told myself it was another entrance to the
compound, as if it extended through the wall) but I like the way I did
the windows and the doorway. Although I realize now that this in
itself isn't a great reason to keep it in. Bah the hardest part
of mapping is making yourself delete hard work to make things look
better.

Guys -- quick question. I'm thinking of just deleting the stone
building (now brick) and starting over from scratch. I'll try to
make it brick at first, but if that looks crappy I'll go for more metal
like the red and yellow buildings.

Should I keep what I have and just find the right textures, or should I just redo the building?

If I start over I'll probably keep most of the interior.

That's a really good idea, but that's not even close to what I said. If you're refering to a point system with rewards: yeah. But, having NPCs and new weapons is all yours. I suggested when you died, it'd give you a recap score of what you did ... and award accordingly. We discussed zombie death traps ... just eleborate crazy machine death traps; I think that'd break up the tension really well. Because if you're going to try to make this thing as intense as you're suggesting, it might be nice to have a nice reward when you die. But, the reward while playing is cool too. And yes, it is possible. Very possible. I can think of several entities and outputs that'd make it easy. And for bringing in an npc (friendly), you may, as you were thinking, want to do a scripted sequence.

But, honestly, you need to open new areas as time/points pass ... otherwise it'll just get boring. You need to give a reason to continue playing.

It'd be really cool if at some point you got one of those snipers to help you. If you did cool stuff like that and put in some very atmospheric things (like radio chatter) ... you could find a radio to give the player. It'd be really cool.

---

Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

For whatever reason I cant seem to quote your post in either IE or FF so Im
just gonna refer to each image as 1,2,3 etc.

I really like the look of img 2 apart from the trim around the grates. As
Opheus says it could be more thin. Have you tried with adding a bit more water
in there (if there is already water in there make it deeper, I cant really tell
from the image). Im not sure what benefits it would provide but its just a
thought that crossed my mind when I looked at the image.

Img 3: Are there any support struts under that platform? Havin some sort of
fence - or better still a short wall - along the edge of the path would perhaps
help here

Img 4: The inner walls are indeed a bit too deep, but not by too much as it
does make the building look a lot more detailed. The main problem is that it
creates a massive overlap with the roof, if you get what I mean. Also have some
stuff on the roofs, like the arial/satelite dish models.

Img 5: Same comments as above. Try using more overlays, especially the stain
ones, I personally swear by them for breaking up repetitive textures :biggrin:

Img 6: I think the base/buildings look damn good here. I can really see the
theme/setting here that I felt was missing in my prev post. However the grassy
areas and surrounding terrain...way too bland and flat. It needs perhaps a
change in location. Cliff edge perhaps (too obvious?) or a wooded area? A
government base in the middle of a forest...running out into the woods and
blasting away at the zombies would be muchos cool :smile: Try building the base into
and over the cliff as well.

---

Hello there.

Thanks for all the comments SpiKeRs. I'll definitely be taking a
lot of your suggestions to heart, especially about making changes to
make the level less flat.

I'll post more screens sometime in the next two weeks... I have midterms coming up and need to focus on my studies for a bit.