dm_defenestrate

My first map, I made it to help me gain a career in the games industry. I welcome critique but its going to take something big to make me recompile as it took 28 hours and yes I have done some thorough optimisation. Anyone else ever had that kind of compile time? its all due to the vvis and the level being so open I assume. I'm doing another compile as I post this and I will probably do one final compile after playtesting it if gameplay doesnt work.

The idea is that the rpg and the ammo for it are on the high ground and there are a few routes to get there but all the spawns are on the other side of the bridge, hopefully this will create some good flow and a literal king of the hill.

I should be able to put the map up for download on sunday, when its finished compiling. For now its just screenies.

Only thing I would have suggested to you would have been to make the top of the cliff in screen2 much less flat. Looks like an anvil top to be honest :razz:

The river stuff in screen1 is impressive, particularly the bridge architecture. I also think the water shine is just perfect for that area.

And on a quick side note, I think you have the map file under the wrong category :heee: Methinks it should be HL2DM (?), not HL :razz:

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Breaking the laws of mapping since 2003 and doing a damn fine job at it

Looking at the screens... it just lacks a certain 'junk' aspect that HL2 and CS have. There's just not enough crap scattered around imo.

Also, some of those rooftops on the cabins could use a little reworking :wink: They need to droop over the walls a bit.

But on the topic of garbage and junk: I think it's a breath of fresh air to not see an HL2 map that looks like a wasteland. Just my personal thoughts, though :smile:

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Breaking the laws of mapping since 2003 and doing a damn fine job at it

With a name like dm_defenestrate I was hoping for a huge window that you can toss people out of. )-:

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http://maze5.net

Thanks guys, its true about the top of the cliff but it should be out of site when actually playing as i was using noclip to take the screenie. The mojority of props are in the buildings, hopefully after throwing through the windows it can be turned into a wasteland :wink:

I'll consider doing something to the roofs, I was going for efficiency when I did them but cant hurt that much.

Is it not under HL2? oops

Very respectable for a first map!

Compile time shouldn't take more than half an hour. For a full, final compile...

http://www.student.ru.nl/rvanhoorn/optimization.php try that tutorial and read it throughly. You've got some big optimization error here! This should also affect the map and probably makes it run worse for players, too!

Nice colors and brushwork, but try thinking of something a little more memorable for the theme!

A few general tips: Avoid dead ends (two or 3 ways out of every area), seperate larger parts from each other so the engine doesn't have to draw everything at once (performance!).

Good start! :smile:

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Why snark works.

The theme?

I used all the optimisation techniques with the exception of occluders and areaportals. The only thing is there is a lot of expensive water in the map, which goes against the multiplayer mapping code but it just doesnt look as good without it. Its also slowing down the compiling a lot but the performance is good, I only have a geforce 4 but have an average of 30 fps with settings on high.

I can't bring myself to change the water although it is obviously effecting the performance. I'll try compiling it with cheap water at least and see how much difference it makes.

Huh? No water, cheap water, and expensive water all don't affect compile time at all. Water will affect in-game performance, but it most definitely won't add more than half a second to your compile time.

Oh that is strange then.

The compile log could revleal something! There MUST be something wrong. Maybe you better make a post in the editing forums!

28 hours? You're not rendering a Pixar movie :biggrin:

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Why snark works.

To be honest I dont think there is much that can be done I think the large compile time is to be expected, it can maybe be reduced a little but making it take less than 30 mins would need massive changes to the design.

there is already a post about the same thing here: http://www.snarkpit.net/forums.php?forum=6&topic=3522&highlight=compile,time

I dont think the compile log is unusual except for maybe having high numbers. I'll delay the release a little while and keep going with some optimisation.

VVIS

1 threads
reading c:\hl2mod\dm map\maps\dm_defenestrate.bsp
reading c:\hl2mod\dm map\maps\dm_defenestrate.prt
1225 portalclusters
4289 numportals
0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...100...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10Optimized: 6871 visible clusters (0.00%)
Total clusters visible: 1005892
Average clusters visible: 821
Building PAS...
Average clusters audible: 1223
visdatasize:374561 compressed from 392000
writing c:\hl2mod\dm map\maps\dm_defenestrate.bsp
35 hours, 21 minutes, 11 seconds elapsed

Wait, are you compiling through Hammer? That might be adding an unessasary drain on the computer, slowing the compiles. If you aren't already, you might want to try looking for a batch compiler, like Nem's.

Although, I would expect and HL2 map to take quite a while to compile. Mommamesa currently takes 7+ hours to compile, and that's for HL1 :/

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Breaking the laws of mapping since 2003 and doing a damn fine job at it

Thanks, thats a good idea

Wait, are you compiling through Hammer? That might be adding an unessasary drain on the computer, slowing the compiles. If you aren't already, you might want to try looking for a batch compiler, like Nem's.

Maybe that does speed up compile times by a few percent but I doubt more than 5 or 10%.

35 hours, 21 minutes, 11 seconds elapsed

That's INSANE, absolutely insane! VIS is totally going totally haywire here!
Please post the vbsp log, too! Maybe something's wrong there.

Full VIS shouldn't take more than 5 or 10 minutes, usually.

Your VIS log doesn't look all that suspicious otherwise. Only the time is crazy.

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Why snark works.

hehehehe yeah

here is the vbsp:

Loading C:\HL2MOD\DM Map\maps\dm_defenestrate.vmf
fixing up env_cubemap materials on brush sides...
0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...100...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10Processing areas...done (0)
Building Faces...done (0)
Chop Details...done (0)
Find Visible Detail Sides...
Merged 198 detail faces...done (0)
Merging details...done (0)
FixTjuncs...
PruneNodes...
WriteBSP...
done (1)
writing C:\HL2MOD\DM Map\maps\dm_defenestrate.prt...done (0)
WARNING: node without a volume
Creating default cubemaps for env_cubemap using skybox materials:
skybox/sky_day01_07*.vmt
Run buildcubemaps in the engine to get the correct cube maps.

No such variable "$hdrbasetexture" for material "skybox/sky_day01_07rt"
Can't load skybox file skybox/sky_day01_07 to build the default cubemap!
Finding displacement neighbors...
Finding lightmap sample positions...
Displacement Alpha : 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10
Building Physics collision data...
done (0) (298811 bytes)
Placing detail props : 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10
Compacting texture/material tables...
Reduced 3180 texinfos to 1724
Reduced 197 texdatas to 171 (7063 bytes to 6186)
Writing C:\HL2MOD\DM Map\maps\dm_defenestrate.bsp
5 seconds elapsed

in the vrad there is:
3 degenerate faces
and 1 zero area child patch

that takes 7 minutes, 17 seconds

Many of the displacements cut into the water, should I cut them at the water line? Would it make a big difference? I'm busy today but maybe tomorrow i'll have a chance to try some things out

If you are comfortable with offering your vmf file, it would be good to get some experienced eyes looking at the actual construction. It's hard to tell what's going on with a few screenshots and compile log.

Also, you should relegiously use func_detail to help control Vis. Any brush that isn't used to occlude should probably be turned into a func_detail. You would be amazed at how much difference that makes in compile times. I've gone from hours to minutes, simply by optimizing with func_detail. Be careful though, func_detail brushes don't occlude and they don't seal the world.

I've gone from 7 and a half hours to 30 seconds.

Learn func_detail and use glview. You must have some complex geometry that's really causing vvis some pain. Vvis shouldn't take more than around a half-hour at most (a few minutes in most cases, if you optimize carefully).

No single error would cause a 35-hour compile. That is literally around a hundred times as long as it should take. Search Valve's developer wiki for glview and func_detail, and start to use them.

As finger suggested - posting the VMF would certainly help if you need or want more in-depth help, but any complex geometry in your map should be func_detailed.

I quickly entered this in the error machine and it gave quite a few ones. Although nothing that's usually dangerous, it's definitly worth checking. A general error check in hammer (alt-p I think) would be the first thing to try. Then try to use the cordon tool to compile only parts of your map. Maybe you can find the part that's causing problems this way!

But it's true a simple error either makes your compiles crash completely or only adds little to the compile times. Although I'd call 35 hours a crash (MAN!) checking out the mother of all optimization tutorials a second/third/tenth time is most promising.

You can't wait 2 days for every little compile. I feel with you, though!

Good luck! :biggrin:

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Why snark works.

Is that necessary? I mean - clearly the problem is Vvis taking forever computing visibility between leaves. Why's that? Clearly, too many leaves. Probably several un-func_detailed brushes at odd angles and high vertex densities. So what'll an error check do? You and I know the problem, it's no mystery - now you use glview and func_detail to fix it.

As well as that tutorial, that can be helpful :smile: But nothing other than func_detailing will get you from 35 hours to a half hour.

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-- midkay

I used all the optimisation techniques with the exception of occluders and areaportals.

Probably I got carried away by this quote. midkay is right, if there's anything un-func_detailed that could be func_detailed it's probably the cause.

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Why snark works.

35 hours is nothing :biggrin: the first time I did a full compile it took 3 days and then I cancelled it, wasnt even half way.

Something's wrong with you. :smile:

The sooner you start optimizing, the sooner you can start building more and recompiling in the middle of the day to test changes within 10 minutes. Spend a couple hours and I bet it goes down to 20-30 minutes at least.

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-- midkay

35 hours is nothing :biggrin: the first time I did a full compile it took 3 days and then I cancelled it, wasnt even half way.

/me faints

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Why snark works.

3 hours, 52 minutes, 39 seconds elapsed

Thanks guys you were right, I had overlooked quite a lot of stuff which could be function detail. This will save a lot of time.

Also I have figured out the water problem, I have blocked the view of much of the water to improve the ingame performance and it has made a big difference, it did require a big redesign but it was worth it.

lamellama said:
Thanks guys you were right, I had overlooked quite a lot of stuff which could be function detail.

This site has a roster of about 95% pricks who collectively know just about everything there is to know about level editing for HL. (the other 5% know something about HL as well, but being pussies... well their only 5% so I guess every site needs a bit of pussy)

A point in your favor is that you finally did what you were instructed to do. Most will remember this and help you again someday.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

That must feel like a major relief - you can at least now compile overnight.

Even though you've eighthed (?.. :smile: ) your compile time there's still a lot more you can do to take that from easily overnight compiles to EASILY midday compiles. Keep at it, make sure you use glview, all that.

One more thing that might be useful is go into the Auto visgroups (Auto tab in a panel at the right) and uncheck the "Func_detail" checkbox under "world detail" and then it'll hide all the func_details in the map. This way you can see exactly what vvis is computing when it runs its portalflow phase. This is useful because now you can fly around the map and make sure you haven't forgotten anything. Look for anything really that's not a block (cylinders, cones, spheres - all those should definitely be func_detailed). You can uncheck all the props as well (even uncheck all the world detail) to see literally the bare bones brushes of the map that vvis will consider to block visiblity). Should help a lot.

So congrats, you really helped it a lot, but it's still way out there - keep at it and you'll get it way down.

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-- midkay

Nice tip, thanks

Thankyou Skyrider, the map is now on filefront.

I ran through it for a while, and it looks nice. More 'happy', sunny, compared to the HL2 highway 17 levels.

Performance wasn't super though, I got 20fps on average, with 15fps as a minimum. I don't know how that behaves when put on a server, but it's on the edge I think.

Gameplay-wise, I haven't tested it against others, but it felt very linear to me. The map doesn't look very balanced either with the RPG placed on a high, easy-to-defend spot. Of course, the crossbow can be found on the other side, but that one is pretty inaccurate on long distances, and besides the houses there's virtually no cover against the RPG.
The houses provide some variation with their close-quarter combat, but I think you should've added more of them to outbalance the RPG, and made their entrances less narrow and remove the doors, because these slow down movement a lot.

All in all, looks nice, but I'm not so sure about how it'll play.

I ran through it for a while, and it looks nice. More 'happy', sunny, compared to the HL2 highway 17 levels.

Performance wasn't super though, I got 20fps on average, with 15fps as a minimum. I don't know how that behaves when put on a server, but it's on the edge I think.

Gameplay-wise, I haven't tested it against others, but it felt very linear to me. The map doesn't look very balanced either with the RPG placed on a high, easy-to-defend spot. Of course, the crossbow can be found on the other side, but that one is pretty inaccurate on long distances, and besides the houses there's virtually no cover against the RPG.
The houses provide some variation with their close-quarter combat, but I think you should've added more of them to outbalance the RPG, and made their entrances less narrow and remove the doors, because these slow down movement a lot.

All in all, looks nice, but I'm not so sure about how it'll play.