dm_residential

dm_residential

Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Sun Jul 8th 2007 at 7:27am
midkay
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Posted 2007-07-08 7:27am
midkay
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Thanks Yak_Fighter,

Those are some really great ideas. Some of the suggestions you made like removing gaps between buildings and sidewalks are oddly reminiscent of a process the map went through many months ago. :smile: But I understand the reasoning behind it, I think there are still a couple places this could be done.

I don't really intend to be able to totally fix the layout and turn it into something great, but you have some great suggestions that, if I feel up to it, I might spend a little time messing with on a seperate copy of the map. I didn't go for complete realism, but I tried in some aspects. Some of these things were even already in my head that needed to be done before the final (such as making the destroyed building far more interesting gameplay wise).

"You'd have to add levels to those two previously mentioned buildings and connect them to the fire and construction ones." This quote paints an insane mental picture that's so cool I might just have to try it. :smile:

Thanks again!
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Sat Jul 14th 2007 at 10:54am
midkay
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Posted 2007-07-14 10:54am
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I'm beginning to think I might be able to pull this off a little better than I expected. I'll definitely have to show you guys to get your thoughts, but I've been working on this in the past few days, making a few more-than-minor changes that should be beneficial.

One thing I did is create an alleyway that leads behind the restaurants - basically, from the large hole in the side of the 1532 red/yellow/white apartment/hotel building, along the back of the restaurant building (yellow) and along the side, and it exits facing the destroyed building. An alternate way of getting around; I might be doing some more with this, but that's how it stands for now.

Another, sort of fulfilling reaper's request: Roof access to 1532 (again, sort of). I have a ladder leading up to the top of the red windows on the right side of the building, and some planks leading between each of the window sections; I moved the RPG to the far of the red windows on the left side, so now you've gotta work to get it, by climbing a big exposed ladder then walking across all the window sections - again, pretty exposed. That should help balancing it out a bit.

The big thing I just started on tonight, which is turning out a bit, hmm, better than I expected: just for the hell of it, I deleted the park, grabbed the entire construction site, and moved it over to where the park was. This was the ideal candidate for this area, because it ends up being a pretty short building so you can still see across the map kinda well (sniping between the destroyed building and the room across from it should still be possible) and it doesn't block out too much. But what it introduces is a big possibility of joining up several of the buildings, like Yak_Fighter suggested.

So that's an update on what I'm up to. I have some more ideas in mind for connectivity and flow, as well as I'd like to do more with the construction building to give more vertical play, but we'll see how this goes and hopefully it turns out to be for the best. :smile:
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Wed Aug 1st 2007 at 12:50pm
midkay
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Posted 2007-08-01 12:50pm
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Oy!

So in these past three weeks following the release of dm_residential_b2, I haven't really updated you guys at all, but I've been working harder than ever to bring this map to its best. And this is what I've been working on:
  • The old apartment building (with the extruded edges and basement access, right across from 1532) has been split up into 3 separate buildings of the same style, allowing walkways between all of them and connected above the walkways themselves. The basement access building has been redesigned (screenshot) - now stairs lead up to the main level (screenshot - omfg I love those shadows and the slight bloom on the handrail) and there's a new interior there (screenshot). There's also an alternate way to access the basement - via a door you can access from a side walkway.
  • Finally, a solution to the empty areas of the map. All of the sections which used to be odd, slanted concrete (due to the hill) between the buildings, and surrounding the used-to-be park, have been turned into actual civilian walkways with stairs and handrails. (screenshot; the open door you see leads into the interior in the previous screenshot.)
  • Destroyed building no longer has an interior (url=http://www.midkay.net/dm_residential/b3/residential_b3_05.jpg]screenshot[url])No door leading in, and there's only one door open for use from the outside, and that leads down a short hall, across a small skybridge connecting it to the building that replaces the old construction site (url=http:/www.midkay.net/dm_residential/b3/residential_b3_06.jpg]screenshot[/url]). Immediately after the skybridge there is a room housing the crossbow - a new sniper location (see window just right of the skybridge). This new building also has stairs that lead down to two separate entrances for flexibility.
  • New alley along the back of the destroyed building (right side of screenshot), leading up to the new walkway (on the left of the screenshot) and one of the two ground-level entrances to the new sniper building (not QUITE visible in the screenshot, but it's on the left). Another new alley along the back and side of the groundlevel-restaurant building (screenshot). On the right you can see the hole in the 1532 building and on the left you can see the destroyed building.
  • So where did the construction site go? Why, it replaces replaces the park/grass area from beta 2. The site itself is much larger and more detailed and it's no longer "adding on" to another building - it's a brand new standalone metal-and-concrete structure. Screenshot from ground level (note the stairs on the right!) and another from atop the plank connecting it and 1532.
  • Semi-roof access on 1532 - a ladder leads up to the extruded faces of the building and the crossbow is on the far side.
Also, well, I've done some lighting tweaks, notably for HDR, by adjusting the tonemap controller to give slightly larger blooms and slightly higher exposures in dark areas; this map almost demands HDR to look good, and I'm really loving how it's ending up visually.

This is all kind of hard to comprehend in text, I think, so I whipped up a very crude flow map that shows how you can navigate the map. And here is that map (green shows the roadways, red shows ground-level navigation, and blue indicates a higher elevation (the skybridge and third-floor corridors).

The map's flow should be infinitely better than beta 2's, I've added a ton of routes around and throughout, and no longer do buildings just have one way in and one way out. You can pick your route through them, or along them, or around them with all the alleys and walkways. There are, as far as I know, no longer any ways to get yourself trapped (except for one interior in the apartment building, but that's intentional - you've got to take a risk if you want to go for the super suit/health charger!).

And with all that said, I'm planning to release a beta 3 of this within a few days. I'm really looking forward to everyone's thoughts - please let me know your opinions on this! Very happy to make some last-minute changes. In fact, I've got a couple myself, that should improve the flow even more.

Thanks for reading this monster of a post. Let's hear your thoughts! :smile:
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by RedWood on Wed Aug 1st 2007 at 7:38pm
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Posted 2007-08-01 7:38pm
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It's looking really good. From what i can see the HDR has a good look to it. I think you may have gone overboard on the spot lights though. I can't really imagine seeing a spot light beam when it's daylight out.
I'd elaborate more but i have to get to work.
Reality has become a commodity.
Re: dm_residential Posted by reaper47 on Wed Aug 1st 2007 at 8:42pm
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Posted 2007-08-01 8:42pm
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Wow, this is getting really complicated :biggrin:

I need to see this in action to give any comments at all. I agree with RedWood with the too many spotlights. There are too many.

It's also getting a little too clean for my taste now, especially the floors.

There also seem to be very, very long corridors on the outer borders of the map now which could turn out a little linear.

But it's really hard to say anything specific, even with all the description. Maybe you can get a proper server-test soon at this place called The Radiator.
Why snark works.
Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Thu Aug 2nd 2007 at 3:41pm
midkay
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Posted 2007-08-02 3:41pm
midkay
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RedWood: Thanks! About the spotlights... well, maybe because of the HDR tweaking I've been doing, it looks like daytime; maybe it's all too bright. What I'd prefer to do is darken the environment lighting a bit and put the exposure back to normal, because I like the way the spotlights look and I want to keep them. :biggrin:

reaper47: Haha, it's not very complicated... there are far more routes available to you than before but I don't think (well, I hope) they aren't too hard to figure out. As for the cleanliness, I'm sure I've said this before, but I'm perpetually waiting until the map is actually just about done layoutwise before I do any dirtying up... because what I've always found is that I'll do a lot of work on one building to make it look nice and then I end up deleting it a couple weeks later and losing all that work, or majorly revamping it... so it's gonna be pretty clean until I finish the layout. Also, with the alleys: I've tried hard to make them less boring by providing alternate routes along them. I'm already doing MORE work on the layout; for the alley behind the restaurants, I've added a door that leads into the restaurant itself, so then you have another option halfway along the alley.

Anyways, as I continue to create more routes and interiors, the map's starting to feel a little big. That worries me. I'm going to finish what I'm up to (a larger hotel interior) and then see just how big it is and maybe delete some stuff or cut it down a bit. I'm not really sure.

Thanks for your comments! :smile:
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by reaper47 on Fri Aug 3rd 2007 at 4:50pm
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Posted 2007-08-03 4:50pm
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Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Maybe it's not so much about the "cleanness" (I actually tend to build cleanly myself - which doesn't necessarily mean orderly :rolleyes: ) but about a general lack of variation, even for large-scale shapes. More chaos!

Most of the buildings, roads, etc still have a strict border between them. You can easily see where one corridor/place/room ends and the next one starts. That can be obvious and inevitable but you could cut out some more asymmetrical, unpredictable walkable areas to blend places (stairs, corridors, buildings) in a more interesting fashion.

I painted these crude examples for what I mean, don't take these too seriously but try to split up your layout here and there, like I tried it with the pics. There are a lot of possibilities for height variation and general interestingness that would have a direct impact on the layout and would need to be added before final detailing.

User posted image

User posted image

User posted image

User posted image

I think I'm gonna like the new construction site, btw.
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Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Fri Aug 3rd 2007 at 7:06pm
midkay
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Posted 2007-08-03 7:06pm
midkay
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reaper47: Haha, I always forget that definition of 'cleanliness'. :smile:

Thanks very much... I always love these paintovers by Finger and you. Very useful to visualize what you mean. They both look great... I wish I had an eye for this stuff. I'm so clueless as to chaos. But I'll have to give it a go as soon as I finish the current project, reworking 1532's interiors. (I hope you don't mind if I steal some of your lovely ideas!)

So thanks again, I'll have another update and hopefully a beta 3 quite soon!
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by Le Chief on Fri Aug 3rd 2007 at 10:43pm
Le Chief
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Posted 2007-08-03 10:43pm
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Wow, nice desgin dude. I can see some sweet game play in this map.
Aaron's Stuff
Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Sat Aug 4th 2007 at 8:19am
midkay
398 posts
Posted 2007-08-04 8:19am
midkay
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Thanks aaron. I'm working at it. :smile:
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by Le Chief on Sat Aug 4th 2007 at 2:15pm
Le Chief
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Posted 2007-08-04 2:15pm
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No problem. Height Variation, very very important in both single and multi player.
Aaron's Stuff
Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Sun Aug 5th 2007 at 7:23am
midkay
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Posted 2007-08-05 7:23am
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Just for the hell of it... :smile:
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by RedWood on Sun Aug 5th 2007 at 11:52pm
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Posted 2007-08-05 11:52pm
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Well that had my bass roaring. :lol:
Reality has become a commodity.
Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Mon Aug 6th 2007 at 2:24am
midkay
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Posted 2007-08-06 2:24am
midkay
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RedWood: Haha. Purpose fulfilled then. :biggrin:

General update:
It's my intention to put out a beta 3 on Wednesday the 8th. lordnitro of the [FF] clan has kindly agreed to arrange a playtest on an [FF] server on that day and there should be many players (clan members, mostly) there to give residential a good testing under a full load of players. As the date draws nearer, I'll hopefully be able to provide server details and a more specific time for the release.
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Thu Aug 9th 2007 at 2:57am
midkay
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Posted 2007-08-09 2:57am
midkay
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Hey all,

dm_residential_b3 is now released. :smile: More details, screenshots, and download link at the map profile. Really hoping to hear everyone's thoughts - please, grab it and give it a run-through! :smile:

For anyone who could be interested, there will be a release event thingy going for a couple hours at most on the IP 71.35.115.101. There will be no password. Grab a copy of the map and join us if you want! :smile:

Enjoy!
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by Le Chief on Thu Aug 9th 2007 at 3:09am
Le Chief
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Posted 2007-08-09 3:09am
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Times like this I really wish I had broadband :sad: .
Aaron's Stuff
Re: dm_residential Posted by reaper47 on Thu Aug 9th 2007 at 10:33am
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Posted 2007-08-09 10:33am
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Sorry, was a little too late for me to join the server. I'll check out the map now.
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Re: dm_residential Posted by Natus on Thu Aug 9th 2007 at 2:49pm
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Posted 2007-08-09 2:49pm
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A fairly nice map, maybe a bit too open and you feel you'll get shot in the back all the time by campers.

And remove those bloody slams :evilgrin:
Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Thu Aug 9th 2007 at 7:02pm
midkay
398 posts
Posted 2007-08-09 7:02pm
midkay
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aaron: Aww, it would have been cool to see you there. When you get broadband we'll set up another! :smile:

reaper47: Cool, looking forward to your thoughts. :smile:

Natus: Haha, yes, I agree about the SLAMS. I placed them around gratuitously because I wasn't really thinking, but people really do like to use them a lot. I never do personally. I'll maybe delete 'em all (there must be like 6 or 7 spawn points for it throughout the map) and stick one or two spawns in the construction site, right in the center. Not so easy to get. :smile: Thanks for your thoughts!
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Thu Aug 23rd 2007 at 1:55am
midkay
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Posted 2007-08-23 1:55am
midkay
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Hey all... again. :smile:

So, following on the tradition of the first two betas, I went and made some major changes to the map after the third beta release. The changes focus on the construction site.

It's become evident that the construction site seems to contribute very little to gameplay. Reaper47 also pointed out that the design of it is kind of erratic and unrealistic. I was pretty aware of this, but I went after that design because I thought it'd be more fun to play on. Reaper47 had some great ideas to give the construction site's layout a little more purpose, but since it seems that either way it makes little contribution to gameplay, I'm getting rid of it.

I initially tried simply moving all of the buildings over to take up the space it left behind.. it all lined up perfectly and I loved it at first - I've always been looking for a way to cut the map's size down somehow. But that quickly died out too: the map was too closed off.

After some discussion with a friend it was decided that a stripmall could work well there, with some office space on top. I created a basic design that I later ended up destroying (literally) as a result of the bomb that took out the building across the street from it. the gameplay it gives is way more straightforward and hopefully it's the last change I have to make.

In fact, it'd better be the last change I ever make, because I've pretty much committed to the size and structure of the map by carefully reconstructing the skybox brushes around the edges of the outside buildings: any changes in layout will be a bit of a pain now. And since I've committed to the layout, why not?: I've created a 3D skybox to give the level some perspective. The change in the feeling of the map from having buildings and hills surrounding the playable area is surprisingly good.

Other changes that I got several complaints about... all of the spotlight beams have been reduced in intensity, and there are no longer any super-bright sprites or beams. I've also done a lot of maintenance work like clipping the tops of all the buildings, both for players and physics objects: you can no longer toss physics objects anywhere outside the actual playable area. Also, all the HDR effects and blooms have been toned down a lot... the map is a lot less bloomy overall.

So without further ado... pictures.

Looking down the street (excuse the lighting on the skybox building). Looking pretty similar to before...

... and the new stripmall/office building with the connecting ramp collapsed to bits. You can run up the right or jump up the left. (No longer just blank sky down the street on the right!)

A view from the sniper building. Some little skybox stuff in the background, I like those smokestacks and the subtle bloom around them. Still need to add handrailings along the edge of the stripmall here...

From atop the stripmall itself. An entirely new texture for the debris down there, as well as some physprops - need a few more.

From below. Still not sure if the Citadel will stay - I added it a long time ago just as kind of a test/experiment and I kind of like the way it looks, although it doesn't entirely make sense here, it could still be passed off as some kind of mysterious structure? Adds some visual interest from the POV of players on the ground... any thoughts on this issue are very welcome. (Also, the spark on the left... is that the best-timed screenshot ever or what? It's just beginning to erupt...) :smile:

And one more from one of the ramps.

On the roof of 1532 is where the skybox really looks nice, to me. I still have some lighting tweaks to do but I'm nearly there with it.

Atop 1532 looking the other direction - a nice contrast to the other shot, the buildings here are shadowed out by the hill a bit.

Also, two examples of some lighting adjustments I made to make things more atmospheric and interesting: the stairs along the back of the destroyed building, and one of the gates inside the sniper building. Thoughts?

So that's the very latest on the map, I wanted to go straight from B3 -> final but it looks like I'll end up putting out a B4 in light of all the changes.. very soon. Hopefully by the end of the week. After gathering any last comments, I might still be able to crank out the final in time for my goal release date: before September 5th (when school starts).

So please, let the comments and crits fly. :smile: Thanks for looking as always!
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by reaper47 on Thu Aug 23rd 2007 at 7:54pm
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Posted 2007-08-23 7:54pm
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I'd really like to see a new map by you, from the ground up, with all the things you learned (especially about layout) from this one. The stripmall/office bit does look better than the construction site but it's still trapped in a square-shaped hole in the middle of the map. The streets will always be too long, the buildings too confined. To some point these layout issues even affect the visuals (like this street that just goes on and on in a straight line).

Changing individual buildings all the time doesn't do the map much good IMO, because the large-scale layout (the two streets, the red building, etc) always stays the same and was originally built to connect totally different places - and probably has always been too open in the first place.

For the love of the mapping gods: stick with the current layout now! Don't change anything more or you'll just find a million more things to tweak and test and change. In order to really get it right, you'd need to be still able to bend, break, cut and rearrange every single part of the map, freely. But the only chance to do this in a reasonable time frame is while still drawing on a piece of paper. And that time has passed.

Get it done quickly. Fix any remaining bugs, be proud about this pretty darn impressive piece of mapping and move on to a new map. Or it'll drive you crazy. :biggrin:

I think you're starting waste a lot of good ideas and thinking on a ground layout that just doesn't fit.
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Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Thu Aug 23rd 2007 at 11:56pm
midkay
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Posted 2007-08-23 11:56pm
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Haha. Thanks reaper47... this was the conclusion I finally arrived at myself last night. About damn time, I suppose. :smile:

I was thinking about all the problems, mostly the ones presented by the destroyed building and the blue sniper building it connects to; how boring they are. I wanted to replace them (surprised?). :smile: I discussed with a friend some possibilities for a new big open building to replace them and it was driving me crazy that this wouldn't help all that much with the layout.

And then I finally decided, it's too late and there's no way this map's going to be all that good, no matter how much time I have spent or will spend on it. There are some major problems and it's going to be easier to start over anyways. So yes. This is basically the final layout save for some potential little tweaks. The map's not in too bad a state as it is... everything's properly clipped and lined up and for what it is it shouldn't run too bad, it's just on the big side. Might be ideal for full servers.

And that's just dm_residential. Pretty much no matter what. And that's finally cool with me. :smile:

I'll be reconsidering the beta4 idea... I might just go straight to final. I'm confident there are no exploits or accidentally-reachable areas... and for what it is it's not looking too bad.

So thanks reaper47. I am in fact looking forward to doing a new one, if-- no, when I come up with an interesting idea. :smile: I've learned too much with this one to not try to put that knowledge to use.
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by RedWood on Fri Aug 24th 2007 at 5:53am
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Posted 2007-08-24 5:53am
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I agree with Reaper, but i was vary impressed with the change you made to the construction site. This look far more realistic.
Reality has become a commodity.
Re: dm_residential Posted by reaper47 on Fri Aug 24th 2007 at 7:30pm
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Posted 2007-08-24 7:30pm
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Do beta 4, just try to refrain from beta 5. :wink:
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Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Fri Aug 24th 2007 at 9:49pm
midkay
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Posted 2007-08-24 9:49pm
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Haha. I promise there will never be a beta 5. Unless I get some great idea and totally redesign the map again... hmmmmm... :wink:

And thanks RedWood :smile:
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by Riven on Sat Aug 25th 2007 at 7:20am
Riven
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Posted 2007-08-25 7:20am
Riven
Wuch ya look'n at?
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I just have to give you two big thumbs up! This map is certainly amazing. I was doing a skim through all the past pages just a few minutes ago and I gotta tell ya, this map has come a LONG way. I downloaded every version and have appreciated everything that I saw you do with it, and am just in shock at how nice it has come out!

I feel ashamed to never have given a comment for it, although I did give you one in the map's profile when you first posted it :wink: . All I can say is that to "improve" it any more would be overkill and a waste of time. This map is up to Valve quality and beyond, and most anyone who plays it won't be thinking of what could make it better.

I just hope you don't get discouraged with a blank canvas again for your next project after working so long on this one, because you have quite some awesome skill at level design, and I'd like to see what you cook up next! I just hope that I'll be able to see it within the next year, if not this one, lol.

I just wanted to give you a congratulation for your accomplishment, and wish you the best of luck on your next project! :smile:
Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202
Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Sun Aug 26th 2007 at 5:24am
midkay
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Posted 2007-08-26 5:24am
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Thanks so much, Riven. :smile: I spent an hour or so going through all the updates again myself (dunno if you went into that much detail, but..) it was fun remembering all the changes I went through. :smile:

Anyways, it was certainly a great learning experience.. this probably gets said a lot, but considering what I knew about level design when I began and what I know now, it's really no wonder why it took so long. I'm absolutely looking forward to starting with a blank canvas, surprisingly, putting all of this new knowledge to good use with something hopefully a bit more fun to play on. :smile:

I've had a few ideas for a new map floating around, but nothing very specific at all. Next time I certainly want to do something a little more original in concept. We'll see what might come of that. The timeframe at the moment seems to be beta 4 in a couple days, final in about a week or a tiny bit more, and depending on how school treats me, I might have up a new concept in a couple months. And this time I'm definitely going to figure out the layout and design BEFORE I start building, not months after. :wink:

So thanks again Riven, for your kind words; hope you enjoy beta 4 when it's out, this thing's finally almost done. :biggrin:
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by Jacfu on Sun Aug 26th 2007 at 11:52pm
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Posted 2007-08-26 11:52pm
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YES, Please! I can't wait to see the finished version. I'm submitting it to our local server as soon as it's done :cool:
Re: dm_residential Posted by $loth on Tue Sep 25th 2007 at 6:14pm
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Posted 2007-09-25 6:14pm
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Great lighting, texturing and atmosphere. I don't usually play DM but this looks like it will play well :smile: