dm_residential

dm_residential

Re: dm_residential Posted by RedWood on Wed Aug 1st 2007 at 7:38pm
RedWood
719 posts
Posted 2007-08-01 7:38pm
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It's looking really good. From what i can see the HDR has a good look to it. I think you may have gone overboard on the spot lights though. I can't really imagine seeing a spot light beam when it's daylight out.
I'd elaborate more but i have to get to work.
Reality has become a commodity.
Re: dm_residential Posted by reaper47 on Wed Aug 1st 2007 at 8:42pm
reaper47
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Posted 2007-08-01 8:42pm
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Wow, this is getting really complicated :biggrin:

I need to see this in action to give any comments at all. I agree with RedWood with the too many spotlights. There are too many.

It's also getting a little too clean for my taste now, especially the floors.

There also seem to be very, very long corridors on the outer borders of the map now which could turn out a little linear.

But it's really hard to say anything specific, even with all the description. Maybe you can get a proper server-test soon at this place called The Radiator.
Why snark works.
Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Thu Aug 2nd 2007 at 3:41pm
midkay
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Posted 2007-08-02 3:41pm
midkay
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RedWood: Thanks! About the spotlights... well, maybe because of the HDR tweaking I've been doing, it looks like daytime; maybe it's all too bright. What I'd prefer to do is darken the environment lighting a bit and put the exposure back to normal, because I like the way the spotlights look and I want to keep them. :biggrin:

reaper47: Haha, it's not very complicated... there are far more routes available to you than before but I don't think (well, I hope) they aren't too hard to figure out. As for the cleanliness, I'm sure I've said this before, but I'm perpetually waiting until the map is actually just about done layoutwise before I do any dirtying up... because what I've always found is that I'll do a lot of work on one building to make it look nice and then I end up deleting it a couple weeks later and losing all that work, or majorly revamping it... so it's gonna be pretty clean until I finish the layout. Also, with the alleys: I've tried hard to make them less boring by providing alternate routes along them. I'm already doing MORE work on the layout; for the alley behind the restaurants, I've added a door that leads into the restaurant itself, so then you have another option halfway along the alley.

Anyways, as I continue to create more routes and interiors, the map's starting to feel a little big. That worries me. I'm going to finish what I'm up to (a larger hotel interior) and then see just how big it is and maybe delete some stuff or cut it down a bit. I'm not really sure.

Thanks for your comments! :smile:
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by reaper47 on Fri Aug 3rd 2007 at 4:50pm
reaper47
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Posted 2007-08-03 4:50pm
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Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Maybe it's not so much about the "cleanness" (I actually tend to build cleanly myself - which doesn't necessarily mean orderly :rolleyes: ) but about a general lack of variation, even for large-scale shapes. More chaos!

Most of the buildings, roads, etc still have a strict border between them. You can easily see where one corridor/place/room ends and the next one starts. That can be obvious and inevitable but you could cut out some more asymmetrical, unpredictable walkable areas to blend places (stairs, corridors, buildings) in a more interesting fashion.

I painted these crude examples for what I mean, don't take these too seriously but try to split up your layout here and there, like I tried it with the pics. There are a lot of possibilities for height variation and general interestingness that would have a direct impact on the layout and would need to be added before final detailing.

User posted image

User posted image

User posted image

User posted image

I think I'm gonna like the new construction site, btw.
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Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Fri Aug 3rd 2007 at 7:06pm
midkay
398 posts
Posted 2007-08-03 7:06pm
midkay
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reaper47: Haha, I always forget that definition of 'cleanliness'. :smile:

Thanks very much... I always love these paintovers by Finger and you. Very useful to visualize what you mean. They both look great... I wish I had an eye for this stuff. I'm so clueless as to chaos. But I'll have to give it a go as soon as I finish the current project, reworking 1532's interiors. (I hope you don't mind if I steal some of your lovely ideas!)

So thanks again, I'll have another update and hopefully a beta 3 quite soon!
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by Le Chief on Fri Aug 3rd 2007 at 10:43pm
Le Chief
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Posted 2007-08-03 10:43pm
Le Chief
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Wow, nice desgin dude. I can see some sweet game play in this map.
Aaron's Stuff
Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Sat Aug 4th 2007 at 8:19am
midkay
398 posts
Posted 2007-08-04 8:19am
midkay
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Thanks aaron. I'm working at it. :smile:
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by Le Chief on Sat Aug 4th 2007 at 2:15pm
Le Chief
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Posted 2007-08-04 2:15pm
Le Chief
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No problem. Height Variation, very very important in both single and multi player.
Aaron's Stuff
Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Sun Aug 5th 2007 at 7:23am
midkay
398 posts
Posted 2007-08-05 7:23am
midkay
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Just for the hell of it... :smile:
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by RedWood on Sun Aug 5th 2007 at 11:52pm
RedWood
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Posted 2007-08-05 11:52pm
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Well that had my bass roaring. :lol:
Reality has become a commodity.
Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Mon Aug 6th 2007 at 2:24am
midkay
398 posts
Posted 2007-08-06 2:24am
midkay
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398 posts 120 snarkmarks Registered: Apr 15th 2005 Location: United States
RedWood: Haha. Purpose fulfilled then. :biggrin:

General update:
It's my intention to put out a beta 3 on Wednesday the 8th. lordnitro of the [FF] clan has kindly agreed to arrange a playtest on an [FF] server on that day and there should be many players (clan members, mostly) there to give residential a good testing under a full load of players. As the date draws nearer, I'll hopefully be able to provide server details and a more specific time for the release.
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Thu Aug 9th 2007 at 2:57am
midkay
398 posts
Posted 2007-08-09 2:57am
midkay
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398 posts 120 snarkmarks Registered: Apr 15th 2005 Location: United States
Hey all,

dm_residential_b3 is now released. :smile: More details, screenshots, and download link at the map profile. Really hoping to hear everyone's thoughts - please, grab it and give it a run-through! :smile:

For anyone who could be interested, there will be a release event thingy going for a couple hours at most on the IP 71.35.115.101. There will be no password. Grab a copy of the map and join us if you want! :smile:

Enjoy!
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by Le Chief on Thu Aug 9th 2007 at 3:09am
Le Chief
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Posted 2007-08-09 3:09am
Le Chief
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Times like this I really wish I had broadband :sad: .
Aaron's Stuff
Re: dm_residential Posted by reaper47 on Thu Aug 9th 2007 at 10:33am
reaper47
2827 posts
Posted 2007-08-09 10:33am
reaper47
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Sorry, was a little too late for me to join the server. I'll check out the map now.
Why snark works.
Re: dm_residential Posted by Natus on Thu Aug 9th 2007 at 2:49pm
Natus
570 posts
Posted 2007-08-09 2:49pm
Natus
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A fairly nice map, maybe a bit too open and you feel you'll get shot in the back all the time by campers.

And remove those bloody slams :evilgrin:
Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Thu Aug 9th 2007 at 7:02pm
midkay
398 posts
Posted 2007-08-09 7:02pm
midkay
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398 posts 120 snarkmarks Registered: Apr 15th 2005 Location: United States
aaron: Aww, it would have been cool to see you there. When you get broadband we'll set up another! :smile:

reaper47: Cool, looking forward to your thoughts. :smile:

Natus: Haha, yes, I agree about the SLAMS. I placed them around gratuitously because I wasn't really thinking, but people really do like to use them a lot. I never do personally. I'll maybe delete 'em all (there must be like 6 or 7 spawn points for it throughout the map) and stick one or two spawns in the construction site, right in the center. Not so easy to get. :smile: Thanks for your thoughts!
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Thu Aug 23rd 2007 at 1:55am
midkay
398 posts
Posted 2007-08-23 1:55am
midkay
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Hey all... again. :smile:

So, following on the tradition of the first two betas, I went and made some major changes to the map after the third beta release. The changes focus on the construction site.

It's become evident that the construction site seems to contribute very little to gameplay. Reaper47 also pointed out that the design of it is kind of erratic and unrealistic. I was pretty aware of this, but I went after that design because I thought it'd be more fun to play on. Reaper47 had some great ideas to give the construction site's layout a little more purpose, but since it seems that either way it makes little contribution to gameplay, I'm getting rid of it.

I initially tried simply moving all of the buildings over to take up the space it left behind.. it all lined up perfectly and I loved it at first - I've always been looking for a way to cut the map's size down somehow. But that quickly died out too: the map was too closed off.

After some discussion with a friend it was decided that a stripmall could work well there, with some office space on top. I created a basic design that I later ended up destroying (literally) as a result of the bomb that took out the building across the street from it. the gameplay it gives is way more straightforward and hopefully it's the last change I have to make.

In fact, it'd better be the last change I ever make, because I've pretty much committed to the size and structure of the map by carefully reconstructing the skybox brushes around the edges of the outside buildings: any changes in layout will be a bit of a pain now. And since I've committed to the layout, why not?: I've created a 3D skybox to give the level some perspective. The change in the feeling of the map from having buildings and hills surrounding the playable area is surprisingly good.

Other changes that I got several complaints about... all of the spotlight beams have been reduced in intensity, and there are no longer any super-bright sprites or beams. I've also done a lot of maintenance work like clipping the tops of all the buildings, both for players and physics objects: you can no longer toss physics objects anywhere outside the actual playable area. Also, all the HDR effects and blooms have been toned down a lot... the map is a lot less bloomy overall.

So without further ado... pictures.

Looking down the street (excuse the lighting on the skybox building). Looking pretty similar to before...

... and the new stripmall/office building with the connecting ramp collapsed to bits. You can run up the right or jump up the left. (No longer just blank sky down the street on the right!)

A view from the sniper building. Some little skybox stuff in the background, I like those smokestacks and the subtle bloom around them. Still need to add handrailings along the edge of the stripmall here...

From atop the stripmall itself. An entirely new texture for the debris down there, as well as some physprops - need a few more.

From below. Still not sure if the Citadel will stay - I added it a long time ago just as kind of a test/experiment and I kind of like the way it looks, although it doesn't entirely make sense here, it could still be passed off as some kind of mysterious structure? Adds some visual interest from the POV of players on the ground... any thoughts on this issue are very welcome. (Also, the spark on the left... is that the best-timed screenshot ever or what? It's just beginning to erupt...) :smile:

And one more from one of the ramps.

On the roof of 1532 is where the skybox really looks nice, to me. I still have some lighting tweaks to do but I'm nearly there with it.

Atop 1532 looking the other direction - a nice contrast to the other shot, the buildings here are shadowed out by the hill a bit.

Also, two examples of some lighting adjustments I made to make things more atmospheric and interesting: the stairs along the back of the destroyed building, and one of the gates inside the sniper building. Thoughts?

So that's the very latest on the map, I wanted to go straight from B3 -> final but it looks like I'll end up putting out a B4 in light of all the changes.. very soon. Hopefully by the end of the week. After gathering any last comments, I might still be able to crank out the final in time for my goal release date: before September 5th (when school starts).

So please, let the comments and crits fly. :smile: Thanks for looking as always!
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by reaper47 on Thu Aug 23rd 2007 at 7:54pm
reaper47
2827 posts
Posted 2007-08-23 7:54pm
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I'd really like to see a new map by you, from the ground up, with all the things you learned (especially about layout) from this one. The stripmall/office bit does look better than the construction site but it's still trapped in a square-shaped hole in the middle of the map. The streets will always be too long, the buildings too confined. To some point these layout issues even affect the visuals (like this street that just goes on and on in a straight line).

Changing individual buildings all the time doesn't do the map much good IMO, because the large-scale layout (the two streets, the red building, etc) always stays the same and was originally built to connect totally different places - and probably has always been too open in the first place.

For the love of the mapping gods: stick with the current layout now! Don't change anything more or you'll just find a million more things to tweak and test and change. In order to really get it right, you'd need to be still able to bend, break, cut and rearrange every single part of the map, freely. But the only chance to do this in a reasonable time frame is while still drawing on a piece of paper. And that time has passed.

Get it done quickly. Fix any remaining bugs, be proud about this pretty darn impressive piece of mapping and move on to a new map. Or it'll drive you crazy. :biggrin:

I think you're starting waste a lot of good ideas and thinking on a ground layout that just doesn't fit.
Why snark works.
Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Thu Aug 23rd 2007 at 11:56pm
midkay
398 posts
Posted 2007-08-23 11:56pm
midkay
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398 posts 120 snarkmarks Registered: Apr 15th 2005 Location: United States
Haha. Thanks reaper47... this was the conclusion I finally arrived at myself last night. About damn time, I suppose. :smile:

I was thinking about all the problems, mostly the ones presented by the destroyed building and the blue sniper building it connects to; how boring they are. I wanted to replace them (surprised?). :smile: I discussed with a friend some possibilities for a new big open building to replace them and it was driving me crazy that this wouldn't help all that much with the layout.

And then I finally decided, it's too late and there's no way this map's going to be all that good, no matter how much time I have spent or will spend on it. There are some major problems and it's going to be easier to start over anyways. So yes. This is basically the final layout save for some potential little tweaks. The map's not in too bad a state as it is... everything's properly clipped and lined up and for what it is it shouldn't run too bad, it's just on the big side. Might be ideal for full servers.

And that's just dm_residential. Pretty much no matter what. And that's finally cool with me. :smile:

I'll be reconsidering the beta4 idea... I might just go straight to final. I'm confident there are no exploits or accidentally-reachable areas... and for what it is it's not looking too bad.

So thanks reaper47. I am in fact looking forward to doing a new one, if-- no, when I come up with an interesting idea. :smile: I've learned too much with this one to not try to put that knowledge to use.
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by RedWood on Fri Aug 24th 2007 at 5:53am
RedWood
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Posted 2007-08-24 5:53am
RedWood
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I agree with Reaper, but i was vary impressed with the change you made to the construction site. This look far more realistic.
Reality has become a commodity.
Re: dm_residential Posted by reaper47 on Fri Aug 24th 2007 at 7:30pm
reaper47
2827 posts
Posted 2007-08-24 7:30pm
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Do beta 4, just try to refrain from beta 5. :wink:
Why snark works.
Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Fri Aug 24th 2007 at 9:49pm
midkay
398 posts
Posted 2007-08-24 9:49pm
midkay
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398 posts 120 snarkmarks Registered: Apr 15th 2005 Location: United States
Haha. I promise there will never be a beta 5. Unless I get some great idea and totally redesign the map again... hmmmmm... :wink:

And thanks RedWood :smile:
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by Riven on Sat Aug 25th 2007 at 7:20am
Riven
1630 posts
Posted 2007-08-25 7:20am
Riven
Wuch ya look'n at?
super admin
1630 posts 1266 snarkmarks Registered: May 2nd 2005 Occupation: Architect Location: Austin, Texas, USA
I just have to give you two big thumbs up! This map is certainly amazing. I was doing a skim through all the past pages just a few minutes ago and I gotta tell ya, this map has come a LONG way. I downloaded every version and have appreciated everything that I saw you do with it, and am just in shock at how nice it has come out!

I feel ashamed to never have given a comment for it, although I did give you one in the map's profile when you first posted it :wink: . All I can say is that to "improve" it any more would be overkill and a waste of time. This map is up to Valve quality and beyond, and most anyone who plays it won't be thinking of what could make it better.

I just hope you don't get discouraged with a blank canvas again for your next project after working so long on this one, because you have quite some awesome skill at level design, and I'd like to see what you cook up next! I just hope that I'll be able to see it within the next year, if not this one, lol.

I just wanted to give you a congratulation for your accomplishment, and wish you the best of luck on your next project! :smile:
Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Re: dm_residential Posted by midkay on Sun Aug 26th 2007 at 5:24am
midkay
398 posts
Posted 2007-08-26 5:24am
midkay
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398 posts 120 snarkmarks Registered: Apr 15th 2005 Location: United States
Thanks so much, Riven. :smile: I spent an hour or so going through all the updates again myself (dunno if you went into that much detail, but..) it was fun remembering all the changes I went through. :smile:

Anyways, it was certainly a great learning experience.. this probably gets said a lot, but considering what I knew about level design when I began and what I know now, it's really no wonder why it took so long. I'm absolutely looking forward to starting with a blank canvas, surprisingly, putting all of this new knowledge to good use with something hopefully a bit more fun to play on. :smile:

I've had a few ideas for a new map floating around, but nothing very specific at all. Next time I certainly want to do something a little more original in concept. We'll see what might come of that. The timeframe at the moment seems to be beta 4 in a couple days, final in about a week or a tiny bit more, and depending on how school treats me, I might have up a new concept in a couple months. And this time I'm definitely going to figure out the layout and design BEFORE I start building, not months after. :wink:

So thanks again Riven, for your kind words; hope you enjoy beta 4 when it's out, this thing's finally almost done. :biggrin:
-- midkay
Re: dm_residential Posted by Jacfu on Sun Aug 26th 2007 at 11:52pm
Jacfu
38 posts
Posted 2007-08-26 11:52pm
Jacfu
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YES, Please! I can't wait to see the finished version. I'm submitting it to our local server as soon as it's done :cool:
Re: dm_residential Posted by $loth on Tue Sep 25th 2007 at 6:14pm
$loth
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Posted 2007-09-25 6:14pm
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Great lighting, texturing and atmosphere. I don't usually play DM but this looks like it will play well :smile: