tf_to_be_decided

I spent most of today copying over and retexturing the blue base to red. Some entities needed their I/O stuff moved over too, but for the most part it's done, and I now have two bases. The middle of the map is really only placeholding atm.

There are no flag or capture areas. That means the map isn't ready for any competitive playtest yet, but I'd be interested to hear about framerates. The fx5900 card that I have is forced to run under dx8, and is traeted like a 'special' child by the Ep2 engine, so I don't know if my average 60fps is a decent indication of what other people will get.

6mb download from here.

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i eat paint

This is already looks better than any of the custom map i have played thus far on TF2.

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Reality has become a commodity.

I am only judging by the screenshots (dont have TF2 )-: ), but from them i would say that the map looks very crisp, very clean, well-produced, with wide open space for gameplay flow. Here are my crits so far:

The textures are super bland and flat, making the spots of flair you have added (support beams, window frames, signs, light fixtures, etc) look out of place. Like they just appeared out of nowhere, rather than naturally being part of the map. The lighting is also very flat, adding to this. I think that I can see the underlying style you are going for - big open clean industrial spaces. Some great maps that do this theme well and get the lighting and textures right are the tram intro sequence in HL1 and Sulsa's HL1 map Chaocity3, maybe check those for references.

I can't really comment much more without seeing more of the map, good luck.

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http://maze5.net

I have great hopes for the TF2 mapping scene. The screens look very solid, even in this early stage.

What I miss from the screens is probably the red/blue color for the base walls. Maybe adding some yellowish tones to the spotlights might also give the map's visuals more atmosphere. The map's definitely in need of color.

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Why snark works.

Thanks for the comments. I agree that the base colour is something that's maybe a little too subtle at the moment, but I'm hoping that when I add the various navigation signs, and any other decals etc, that the problem won't be as obvious.

I'll post a few more screens after this damn migraine is past the optical stage, and I can see what I'm typing.

[Edit] No I won't. I went for a lie down, and left the map to compile the updates that I made today, but the compile settings were for vbsp only. (leakfinding settings). It's amazing what you miss when you can't see right, or in this case, it was mainly left that was affected. :/

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i eat paint

Anyway, back to business.





The first 2 pics show the same view from each base, and the main textures that I've used to differentiate between the bases. The floor edges and metal bars are probably the least obvious until you compare them side by side. Examples of both can be seen from probably 80% of the map.( the bars are used for window frames too)

The floor texture used on the stairs, and the concrete used on the roof supports are a little more obvious as team colours in the red versions. I don't know if that's maybe because blue would be a more of a 'normal' colour for these surfaces. Better examples of these in the last pic.



http://www.invalid-brush.com/images/tf/tf_2base_a2_2.jpg

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i eat paint

First two pics are hard to distinguish. Generally I think knowing what base you're in should be as obvious as possible based on wall colors alone. This is extremely subtle. In TF2 they use this beautiful color-bounce effect a lot (bright white spotlights on a red textured surface dimly lighting the faces around it - mainly the ceiling - with a reddish glow). Maybe you could experiment with some central, colored and sharply lit structures? Like a spotlight facing up right across the ceiling in the third pic. Most colored parts in your map are in the shade (not hit directly by any lights).

Third screenshot looks the best so far. With the textures changing right at the brush-edges the wall supports look a bit... polygony. I know TF2 goes for stylization, but screen 3 almost looks TFC. I think it's the different colors for different brushes that makes their low-poly structure so obvious, so maybe it just needs a more fluid transition between the red and whit/concrete parts?

I definitely like the direction the map is going, though. That looks like a fun ramp-room. Many good memories coming up and yet it looks fresh.

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Why snark works.

These have a striking resemblance to Goldeneye. If that was already noticed, sorry, I didn't read the thread.

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

Yea, the cavern map. Now that you mentioned it... :biggrin:

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Why snark works.

Fishy, you should have this playing over and over in the map.

Edit: I hate regenerating links sometimes. Here's the main page. Click on "Subterranean Caverns".

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

These have a striking resemblance to Goldeneye. If that was already noticed, sorry, I didn't read the thread.

This occured to me, too. That's not a bad thing by any means, however. At least in its current spareness -- which I trust Fishy will not leave unimproved -- it recalls the feel of an older age of mapping. Let's talk rocks. My biggest qualm with most TF2 maps, Valve's releases included, is the terrain. In almost every level, it's flatly textured, choppily lit and colored like coffee with too much milk in it, and the rock ceiling you've shown here is no exception. Give it a texture that brings out its shape. If none are available, I'll give you some of mine.

style-ised realism, I like it. I really like it.

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Aaron's Stuff

I agree with mazemaster's assessment. The solid, clean brushwork will definitely appeal to TF gameplay, I wouldn't clutter things up with movable junk like an HL2DM map or immovable junk like a CS map. The hallways are clean and this is good. But otherwise, it's unremarkable.

Your team colors are very muted. I haven't played TF2, so I don't know if that's par the course, but I learned from my few CTF attempts that vibrant team colors are not to be overlooked, and standing out really is a good thing. Put some sharp color strips along the ceiling. Make the team home OBVIOUS. And get rid of that prefab cart in the shot, along with any texture that screams HL1.

The last of the three preview shots hints that there's more dynamic gameplay than we can really notice in these shots, otherwise I'd mention something for making the hallways too flat.

Awesome stuff Fishy. I have to agree that the tex set is partly whats keeping this map from looking as amazing as it could. Also, The great room is inspiring with its support beams amidst the rocks. I would recommend a more darkened dramatic approach to lighting this room. Upwards pointing spots to hilite the ceilings and so on. Could be a real show piece.

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Quote from Nietzsche....God is dead
Quote from God....Nietzsche is dead

I don't think I ever played goldeneye, so that one's lost on me. The link to the .mp3 doesn't want to work either, but I guess it's some Bond music. And Bond music, when I think about it, would be perfect for a lot of tf2 maps. :smile:

Cass, your textures are too realistic for tf2. Cartoonism ftw, at least for the moment.

I've worked some on lighting. Out of the various trials there wasn't too much that impressed me. Each base is now more 'team coloured', using coloured light from the various office windows, slight tints to the overhead lights, and, as Reaper suggested, some strong spots bouncing off of coloured logos. It all looks somewhat saturated to me now, so normalizing the light a little, and retexturing, is still on the cards.

Here's a sort of walkthrough of the blue base,


From the stairs at one end of the base, overlooking the main entrance hall, the main door is on the right, just after the blue logo. The lower spawn room is in the recess.


Looking up the stairs from the same place. The final half set of stair will lead to the front battlements, still a w.i.p.


A good view of the upper deck from the top of the half set of stairs. The round door on the right is the predicted secondary route to the intel, but we'll come back that way later. :smile:


This one is taken from the opposite end of the previous pic. The upper spawn is directly behind the pov.


Heading down the stairs takes us to a short corridor leading to the intel room. The square door leads back into the main entrance hall, and is the same square door that's seen in the 1st pic.


Into the intel room. The intel itself is on the lower deck, so even though the attackers might have a slight height advantage when they enter the room, they need to make the most of it before comitting to a grab.


Looking back down into the room from the other end.


This corridor is still giving me the s**ts, but I'll sort it. It leads from the intel room (left) to the top deck of the stairs that we started on.


The only thing I like about that corridor is the window, but even that has a very iffy view.

And a couple of pics from the red base for colour comparison.





There's a door on the top deck, almost directly above the front door, which leads the an office, capzone, battlements area, but there was a hicup. :rolleyes:

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i eat paint

Is this a CTF map fishy? My only concern at the moment would be that it seems too much of a corridoor layout - an issue which chokes up 2fort and puts people off it. 24 man servers especially need more vistas and wide spaces in light of how medics work in TF2 as opposed to TFC.

It all looks somewhat saturated to me now

It seems sticking with DOD for so long has seriously affected your eye's Cone cells. :biggrin: Honestly, if anything, the texturing is too little saturated still, especially for a TF2 map. I'd say base coloring could be even more obvious, it remains very subtle, especially for players who aren't familiar with both sides. Aiming for in-your-face obviousness when it comes to team colors is the way to go for TF maps, especially for texturing.

I like the lighting much more now. Pics 3, 4, 7, 9, 10, 11 have "dark spots" in them (parts between lights that are near pitch-black on darker monitors). Make sure all your lights, especially if spotlights are used, overlap and have no shadow areas between them. It might be a more subtle thing, but I always found it to turn out rather annoying if lighting isn't gapless.

As for the corridor that gives you the "s**ts": Besides getting rid of that weird, bright/grey ceiling texture, I - once again - suggest lighting as a solution. I know I bring it up almost everywhere, but it's kinda my thing...
I'd cut the row of little lamps (which don't quite fit the place) and rely on nice spotlight use again. Basically, I think the ceiling lighting is too fullbright/homogeneous. Make the ceiling darker, and throw an upwards-aiming spotlight across it from the right, to give it structure.

There might be a time when spotlights get out of fashion, but it works so well for TF2 and the game is just out for two months - so why not try the obvious first and start experiment later? :wink:

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Why snark works.

Aye, Gwil, it's CTF. What I probably should have already mentioned, is that this is aimed at lower number servers. All of the default maps suck big time when the numbers drop. Quite a lot of custom ones that I've played do too. It seems to be that when numbers drop to around 5v5, most of the remaining players on a server will decide to give up and go and look for somewhere else to play. It's impossible to tell until the map gets played, but I'm expecting 5 v 5 to be enough to keep this one moving along at a reasonable pace. Intense would probably be the wrong word to describe the play on a full 32 man server though.

As for the corridors, they are few, and needed for visblocking. I've also got my fov at max, which sort of streaches the view into the distance, and makes them everything appear a bit longer than it is.

[edit]

reaper, the todo list includes setting a min light level for the map, so that it isn't too dark between the pools of light. Some spotlights in the s**ts corridor would be better. I like the little wall lights, and I've tried to ignore the fact that they do look out of place, but I think you're right about removing them.

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i eat paint

Their appears to be a start to a tunnel at the bottom of your pit. Is it ever going to lead some ware?

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Reality has become a commodity.

RedWood said:
Their appears to be a start to a tunnel at the bottom of your pit. Is it ever going to lead some ware?

It's there as an option, as are a couple of doors elsewhere. I'll need to see how the map plays first.

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i eat paint

Looks good from what I can tell in the screenshots. First thought; the map could use a visual hook; some set-peice room or vista that is memorable and stands out....where people say "lets play that map with the bananna rocket!", or whatever that thing is. Is this entirely interior?

A small nitpick observation... the small square lights mounted on the support beams on the ceiling bother me. They stand out as 'HL1 light texture on a square brush' lights; I say remove them and stick with whatever light models are available. It seems stange that they would build such lights into those chunky support beams, and my eye always goes straight to them. End nitpick.

Looking forward to playing this map.

Thus far, I've been enjoying what I've been seeing. My biggest concern is with the bulk of the texturing and perhaps some of the lighting -- it's not bad, but then again, it doesn't stand out as anything particularly eye catching. The majority of the rooms have a constant gray/plaster/concrete look to them, and the look is being recycled quite a lot in most parts of the map.

Let me validate my point with this area of the map. Like I said: It isn't bad, but the gray walls with the gray/monotone lighting aren't helping it. Something needs to be thrown into certain areas of the map to add some contrast in -- specifically in this case, some color.

Ultimately, nice work thus far -- just keep hammering away at it.

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Breaking the laws of mapping since 2003 and doing a damn fine job at it

looking real good fishy. i dont care for the girders under the windowed offices outside. doesnt look stable enoufe to support them or something. but it still looks real good. keep up the good work.

I've done a fair amount since I last posted anything about this here. There's been a b2 version running on "milky's test server" at 74.63.67.163:27015 for a little under a week, but as soon as I had a run around on it with other players, I knew I had to add the underground exit, and some cover for the main doors of the bases.

With that done, and being relatively happy with the outcome, I'm posting b3 for general crit, though I know that some of the inaccessible areas (behind glass etc) will need more detail before a final release.







http://www.invalid-brush.com/images/tf/b3/ctf_fishy4.jpg

http://www.invalid-brush.com/images/tf/b3/ctf_fishy6.jpg

http://www.invalid-brush.com/images/tf/b3/ctf_fishy8.jpg

Download ctf_fishy_b3 here
milky's server ( 74.63.67.163:27015 ) has now been updated to this version.

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i eat paint

Umm... Well, what can i say. Its looks wonderful. I don't have much to say.

The room in the center pic could use some some tweaking. (im sure you will). The rock ceiling in the corner looks a little awkward. Maybe have it jet up a little instead of down?

The first and second pics are a little flushed white.

The wire texture in the third pic seams a bit fuzzy. Maybe scale it down a bit. (just nitpicking)

The road overlay in the last pic seams a bit blocky. (nitpicking again)

I have downloaded it and i'll get on TF2 and play it some time soon so i can give the game play a try.

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Reality has become a commodity.

Beautiful. It could still need some spice.

What I'm missing is some central landmark. Something memorable. This is nitpicking on the highest level, of course. But I could imagine the fact that the map hasn't received a name yet has the same source as my complaint about the lack of a visual landmark or theme.

Maybe you can incorporate a bit of a story. What is this place and what's different from all the other TF2 bunkers?

If you manage to come up with something original to give this place a little more purpose (or make the purpose more obvious) it would probably improve the atmosphere.

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Why snark works.

I almost walked past the intel. I think perhaps it needs better spotlighting.
The central area feels a little open for TF2 standards, perhaps a big rock monolith or something would alleviate this? Also, are we supposed to be able to break a few of the windows on the control room? I guess it could be fun to snipe someone just as theyre expecting to capture :biggrin:

(BTW I like the fact your cap point is separate to the intelligence itself, the new setup as shown in 2fort sucks, IMO)

Everything else I can't really comment upon - I feel you could perhaps stretch to the 24 player load, it is larger than it looks in the pictures.

What is this place and what's different from all the other TF2 bunkers?

In a nutshell, nowhere and nothing. It's just a small generic 2fort type map. What I have added is a couple of small buildings in the middle map to block snipers lines of sight to the enemy base main door. Sort of like a frontier/border crossing with barriers over the road, so maybe ctf_frontier could be an apt release name. They should also help to provide more general cover for mid map fighting.



I'm not so keen on them being wooden huts, so no doubt I'll remake them in concrete.

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i eat paint

Glad to see this map getting finalized! Awesome work Fishy! The gameplay is superb. Before I begin though, with all due respect Fishy, I'm just telling you what I think about the map, not telling you how to map :biggrin: . I know you have more experience in this than I do, so I won't bore you; here we go! :

I'll admit, the outside seems a bit too open, perhaps some pillars outside the door to run around would sponsor some turret defenses to take out enemies looking to waltz right through the front and without being taken out from across the map.
I believe that the capture rooms look and feel fine, but because they are so cramped, it is very easy to get caught-up on the models and things. I believe it wouldn't hurt if you built player clip brushes to cover the odd collision models of all that detail, and make the journey of a rushing scout in there a lot more enjoyable, instead of getting caught up on a console, and getting killed by that last desperate rocket from the soldier chasing you.

The lighting indoors is fine, I really didn't take the time to analyze it that much, but it is the outdoors that caught me off guard. Did you use some filler lights around the ground outside?, because the darkness of the sky seems SOO out of place compared to the lighting on the ground. I think it would be much more dramatic if you lowered the environmental light just that much more, to make those areas with direct light stand out more. (you could also afford to make them a little more interesting). Honestly, when I went outside for the first time, I thought I was in a large cave installation, and after looking up at the sky I still didn't feel convinced. I felt like I was located in a big black box.

The night sky lacks any kind of detail. Besides it being too black, it was just emitting too much light to convince me it was some time of night, or whether I was on earth or not :razz: .

One more gameplay issue: The importance of the intelligence "flags" are nonexistent. Their placement seems like an afterthought. I assume that if an engineer wanted to, he could build a turret right in front of that console it sits on and you would never be able to rush in there to take it unless that turret was destroyed. You couldn't formulate any kind of plan. But beyond that, it's easy to miss. I think you need to place it on the floor or on some kind of table. Does the fact that its a briefcase and not a flag mean anything to you? Work with what Valve has given you; play with the setting/story a bit more. To sit back and call it a "2fort type map" is just settling for less. If you built a vault off of that room and put the briefcase in there, that would signify obviously its importance in this "world" You obviously have some kind of setting here, Don't just give up on it in some places. the outside with its dark theme should carry on inside. Add some dark corners, or empty spaces filled with cobwebs. I will say this: The map is top-notch and most of what I just stated is a bit nit-picky; The theme indoors is a bit generic, and that's ok IMO, I just think you could do more with it.

Final thoughts:

• Outside needs to be darker to contrast with the lighted areas (add more obvious spotlights along the road)
• Make the briefcase a little more obvious
• Make the capture room easier to move through

Once again Fishy, thanks for listening, I didn't mean to insult you, I just hope you understand where I'm coming from. :smile:

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Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202

I didn't mean to insult you, I just hope you understand where I'm coming from

lol Riven, no worries. I actually agree with a lot of what you said.

Smoothing out the collision in the capture room is something that I'll do. With the glass being breakable, I don't want someone to die while they're about to cap just because they got snagged. I don't mind if they die because someone got a decent shot in, but not because of a snag.

I'm reluctant to add any more detail outside, as the framerates are already relatively low out there.(with my vid card, anyway) And you're right about being in a big black bow, btw. There's no night sky for tf2, so I made a big black box inside the 3d skybox, turned it to a func_something, and disabled it's shadows to allow the env_light to get through. I tried adding sprites as stars, but by the time I had enough of them in place, the map would hang while loading. I'm hoping to have at least a big moon made for the final. As for outside lighting, I don't want to make anywhere any darker, and a full moon might explain some areas not being as dark as they should be atm.

The placement of the intel has been something that I've repeatedly held off from thinking about. Having it inside a vault would mean an extra door, creating another choke point to contend with. Maybe a partly open vault door, with an intel sign above it, and the intel lying on a table outside roughly where it is now, would be a reasonable compromise.

Other things that I've been asked to look at are the benches in the 'stairs' respawn. Apparently they were getting in the way of some people, so they've been moved back against the wall. I've also been asked to make the capture zone more obvious. The signs dont have a 'capture zone' skin, only 'control point', and I'm told that's too confusing. But unless the sign model is one of the tf2 models that refuses to decompile, then I don't see a problem making a fix.

Thanks to everyone that's had a look, and please, don't be put off from telling me if there's something that you find off, even if you do think it's only nit-picking. After all, no-one likes to have nits. :smile:

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i eat paint

I finally got a chance to play your map with some people. (Though there wasn't enough people to get a real game going.)

To keep things short i going to start by agreeing with everything that Riven said. He was spot on with everything he said.

Over all when i was inside i have to say that i felt cramped. The ceiling were a good hight, but i was often bumping into walls. In the end i don't think it will kill the the game play but i sagest some heavy player clipping. (the capture room, like Riven said)

I agree that the intel seams out of place.

My biggest complaint came when i was playing as a engineer. I was trying to guard the intel and I never found a good place for the sentry.

Outside i was getting stuck on the rocks. Between the rock wall and the large model rocks.

If you ask me, as long as you forget the snipers, the cover out side is ample. Maybe add a little cover for entering and exiting the shed leading to the under ground section.
As for the snipers, its a little to easy to sit back and pick off people without really being in danger. Evan rockets at that rage are easy to doge. Maybe you can find a way to limit their range of view. or maybe add a path out side that is covered mostly from the sniper fire.

I heard someone say they had a hard time figuring out the layout of the map. I found myself get turned around every once in a while.

Before i left i asked what every thought of the map and every one said they like it. (like 4 people left at this point).
And you got one "I wish i could make maps like this" comment.

Hope this helps.
Keep it up, this is on its way to being a good one.

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Reality has become a commodity.

Redwood, everything that you mentioned has already been taken care of for b4, other than giving the engy a safe place to defend the intel on his own. But, for the sake of keeping the 'team' element alive, that's not going to happen.

I'll post the updated version soon.

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i eat paint

Glad i could help... :sad:

Your map seams to be progressing quickly. Any guess on when you'll have a final.

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Reality has become a commodity.

Glad i could help... :sad:

lol B4 should be the last of the 'quick' updates, as far as I can tell. Anything else that will be done to the map after that will be eye candy in areas that players can't reach, unless some gameplay issue forces a B5 before I'm finished. I don't want to drag it out too much, so probably within the next week or two, depending on how much free time I have.

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i eat paint