Op4_Camper_Hunting

Tell us what You think abut this map. We think it's best for LAN but we haven't played it over internet :smile: A review would be most welcome!

There's nothing really special about the map. It looks just like any number of similar maps; it has no character. The reason for this blandness is simple: you've just made a box, filled in with more basic boxy architecture, and filled those rooms with prefabs.

The high r_speeds (average of about 1300, topping 4000 in the corners) are wasted on this map. Not only are they excessive, but even with all these polygons the map still looks dull. It's not good-looking by the standards of HL1, let alone HL2.

There are, however, a few interesting ideas; I noticed that you've included a "pillbox".

If you want to make a better map, pay attention to the following:

• VISblocking - you should design the map so that the game engine can't see too much at once. There are too many little windows in your map, with the result that the engine is drawing almost all of it at once.
• Creativity - make something novel and personal; don't recycle tired ideas and don't disinterr long-dead prefabs.
• Architecture - make it look interesting.
• Textures - try something other than the stock concrete HL ones.
• Lighting - bright, washed out white is not atmospheric. Try to use atmospheric lighting to create a mood, without actually making the map dark.

soz but I agree with gollum.

i made a map like that once but with less crap around it.

i think it was the first map ive ever made and it ran the r speeds into the 1000's on my old s**tty pc

We don't think that there are too many windows because it was the general idea to make as many firing positions as possible. This map is about gameplay not looks and the r_speeds are used on that because most of the time You can see everything that is happening on the map and react to it instead of enjoying some 'beautiful corridor' with no players in it. We must agree that the achitecture is mostly created out of ordinary cubes :biggrin: We used plain lighting so that the players were easily visible and they could not camp so easily. Try to play it with someone instead of just seeing it!

"We?" so you're more than one person then?

Try to play it with someone instead of just seeing it!

Sorry mate, but you can't realistically expect people here to actually play your map when there's nothing "at first sight" to attract them to it. There are vast numbers of custom maps out there and most of us only play a map if it shows some obvious promise. Indeed, many of us (including me) hardly ever play games at all any more! Most of the time I won't even bother to download a map, let alone play it with other people.

We can talk all day about theories of gameplay. I have my own theories too, which are extremely detailed. Regardless, there are many different styles of gameplay. Personally I feel that maps with lots of different possible firing positions - lots of places to look at once - encourage less intelligent gameplay than maps with a more straightforward layout.

Whatever theory of gameplay you hold, there is no need for a map to look boring in order to promote that sort of gameplay. Putting effort into the atmosphere - visuals, sounds, theme... - will improve any map. Most people around here consider it lazy not to bother with "the look".

For antianticampersquad - if You made a map like this we would like to see it very much but we cant find it on Your page beacuse apparently the link is broken.

Yes there is two of us... :smile:

And for Gollum - we just seen Your maps... well de gustibus non est disputandum but we don't like colors and textures like in a circus.

The colouring of my maps is totally irrelevant to whether your map is ugly. Indeed, my maps in general are totally irrelevant to the quality of your work.

I have never, and will never defend against criticisms of my work by sniping at my detractors. That is the attitude of an immature fool who has nothing to gain from harsh - but fair - criticism.

The quality of artistic criticism is hardly related to the critic's artistic ability.

Incidentally, I am aware that gmdm1 is excessively colourful in places. I am also aware that the texturing in gmdm2 is a shortcoming of the map, although I do not think it is lurid.

--

PS quoting Latin does not make you look clever. Ceteris paribus, it just makes you look like a tit.

Well Christ, Gollum, don't crucify the man.

shudder Well I'm sorry that I've been grouchy lately, but my tolerance for fools is as low online as it is in real life. Maybe I just shouldn't bother commenting on rubbish maps in the future. Obviously they only want positive comments :rolleyes:

Or maybe I'm just getting old and grumpy. sigh

yeah yer a crabby old fart these days arentya, old man??.../runs

seriously tho, gollum touched on some very important points....folks may download this map, and try it out, but i expect after about an hour of play (and this is being generous, imho) it'll be tossed on the ole "pile"....theres nothing here to keep a person wanting to come back and play it again....same old crates, same old cinder blocks, etc etc etc...it si very bland for an OP4 map, i'd say you and your counterpart should take a day or three and really just wotk on the aspects gollum has pointed out, and it could be a good map, both in gameplay, and looks.../my 2 cents....

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

Well.. We've never said that Yor maps are rubbish just because We don't liked them. You have the right to play or look at what You want but we think that Your maps are absolutely the opposite of playability (belive it we actualy played them) and we think that to judge maps one has to play them. Your comments are absolutely lame and off topic. You try to throw UT or Q3 style maps into the Half-Life theme. Our map is for Half-Life! If You like narrow cubic corridors then We are affraid You're playing the wrong game. We play Q3 and UT too and have made maps for them aswell.

As to Your critics

• VISblocking - how would You like to make a map with everything visible (general concept of the map if You haven't noticed) and block the vis?
• Creativity - well.. that is subjective but in the field of gameplay we never encountered such a map (we would like to see similiar maps to add them to our playlist).
• Architecture - Yes it's cubic and it could be more diverse but it would affect r_speeds even more.
• Textures - we like those textures.
• Lighting - we think we said enough about lighting.
• Gameplay - You haven't said anything about that... and we think that is the most important part. If You haven't got time to play than what the f... are You doing here?

If You haven't got time to play than what the f... are You doing here?

Good point. What a complete waste of time conversing with you or your kind is.

vanishes in utter contempt

Lekki said:
Well.. We've never said that Yor maps are rubbish just because We don't liked them. You have the right to play or look at what You want but we think that Your maps are absolutely the opposite of playability (belive it we actualy played them) and we think that to judge maps one has to play them. Your comments are absolutely lame and off topic. You try to throw UT or Q3 style maps into the Half-Life theme. Our map is for Half-Life! If You like narrow cubic corridors then We are affraid You're playing the wrong game. We play Q3 and UT too and have made maps for them aswell.

As to Your critics

• VISblocking - how would You like to make a map with everything visible (general concept of the map if You haven't noticed) and block the vis?
• Creativity - well.. that is subjective but in the field of gameplay we never encountered such a map (we would like to see similiar maps to add them to our playlist).
• Architecture - Yes it's cubic and it could be more diverse but it would affect r_speeds even more.
• Textures - we like those textures.
• Lighting - we think we said enough about lighting.
• Gameplay - You haven't said anything about that... and we think that is the most important part. If You haven't got time to play than what the f... are You doing here?

I'll quote one line to you
"Map critiques given here are often harsh but totally fair, so take note and don't get offended!".

As for the rest of your garbled immature "toys out the pram" routine, what else do you expect from "critiques"? Out and out praise!?

This is a community by mappers, for mappers, populated by mappers. These people know what theyre talking about, and are giving criticism to help YOU make a better map. Instead of taking the points on board or countering them sensibly you turn into a personal war..

Also your points are flawed at best - for instance how are we supposed to play the map with people? Half-Life Deathmatch is a dying game, let alone Opposing Force which bit the dust a good 1/2 years ago, so finding opponents, decent servers and people who are willing to download an untested, unreviewed map is like finding diamonds in cows**t.

Supposing we did get this magical scenario to work somehow, I think you'd get 5/10 minutes play out of most living beings at most. The r_speeds are horrendous (even through your own admission), unplayably bad for most people I would wager - and just to make it worse, they are wasted on a dull "path round central box" style layout who's only attempt at making something playable is to add height and more floors. This does not make a good map - particuarly when it's all enclosed inside boring, geometric shapes. I could say more but I really can't be bothered with arrogant little fools like yourself making themselves out to be superb mappers, when you clearly have no grasp of gameplay, graphics or general decency.

Go open your mind to criticism, it is here to help you.

ooooo v.gd, v.gd indeed, me not sure bout the far right tower in the second shot where the gap is looks a bit too open, mabe a vent/window?
looks like a fun deathmatch map!

I think Gollum has been a bit harsh on this map, as while it doesn't look anything special, it doesn't look too bad either. To me it LOOKS similar in gameplay style to some levels of Gustavo's such as Burning Hate (that could be the wrong name), Isotonic by Wolf, and even official levels such as Crossfire and, to an extent Boot_camp. And while I don't want to sound like I'm jumping on the bandwagon, it is unlikely this will play better than any of those given they for the most part look better and all run better than this.

BUT do NOT think that just because people don't have time to play maps they have no right to be here. The snarkpit is a relativey long running community and certain members here have a lot of loyalty to the place, regardless on their current position on mapping. A good portion of us here have essentially given up on HL level design and even playing HL, but we hang around to help those who have not stopped, and to enjoy one anothers company.

It's essentially a good idea, but executed badly - go look at gasworks before attempting high fighting arenas like this. I only hope your sour tongues and bitter minds can be ready for input when and if you decide to share "entrenchment" with us.

man....i dont understand what it is with these arrogant little s**ts these days....are you guys lacing the water again???... Lekki, you should, imho, heed what has been said...all in all, these have been very fair, honest, and forthright crits....my suggestion would be to you: if ya want honest opinions, this is the place to be....if ya want sunshine pumped up yer ass, go ask yer mommy....bear in mind that the folks around here for the most part are some of the most respected mappers in the community, with eons of collective experience behind them....so....pull yer head out of yer anus, open yer eyes, think about whats been said realisticly, and, if yer gonna be so damn defensive about the answers, then dont ask the friggin questions....capice?

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

There's no sense in chatting with You guys if You don't play the game. We play it on LAN so the r_speeds are no problem... and we receive mails that some people do too and have fun with the map... If You don't like such maps sorry... We responded to the critics because we think they mostly did not make sense... and We are not the ones who started the "war".

You tried to bait Gollum with sniping remarks about his own work and texturing. Irrelevant? Yes. Flamebait? Yes.

"If You don't like such maps sorry... "

Nobody said that, you asked for criticism, you got it. If you can't take what was said before about the map, there probably isnt much point using this Maps forum at all..

"There's no sense in chatting with You guys if You don't play the game."

Maybe we don't now, but I myself and i'm sure several others have years and years of playing experience behind them - I personally played HLDM, TFC, CS, OP4, DoD in serious "leagues" and ran up phone bills of near to a thousand pounds on occasion... Just because we dont play anymore (blame Steam), doesnt mean our opinions are any less valid than that of someone who plays now. Also, our experience in this field gives us an eye for a good map - and I'm certain gameplay alone does not make the best maps there for Half-Life et al.

Dr Brasso said:
if ya want sunshine pumped up yer ass, go ask yer mommy

Haha, love that line :biggrin:

There's no sense in chatting with You guys if You don't play the game. We play it on LAN so the r_speeds are no problem... and we receive mails that some people do too and have fun with the map... If You don't like such maps sorry... We responded to the critics because we think they mostly did not make sense... and We are not the ones who started the "war".

AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAA

You guys are stupid, but at least you didn't make this a CS map with weapons all over the ground. The end.

PS We don't all own extremely fast computers, so try to keep from having 4000 r_speeds on screen. Hint brushes and func_walls will solve a lot of your problems, I bet.

Hey Lekki don't give gollum agro. He makes good maps something it would seem you have yet to experiance.

It must be nice being able to add whatever yoou want and not worry about r_speeds. Some nice looking jump pads would have been great for this map. Also grapples and more zen organic stuff to get to the top faster. I liked it.

Well I think the map looks pretty nice, but I think it could look a lot better with improved lighting. For a start the light_enviroment colour is off... I think if you made it an 'evening' map, then you could have some nice shadows, and put in a few spotlights for colour and ambience, without adding to r_speeds. You could cut your r's down a bit by using one brush handrails with a masked handrail texture instead of the ones you have now, and by stretching the outside floor texture a bit (maybe 1.5x). From the look of the map, it seems like it could be made to have lower r_speeds, without taking much away from the map itself. Certainly the inside of the central building could be made more interesting, while not affecting the r_speeds outside if implemented in conjunction with proper visblocking at the doorways.

With respect to the criticisms received, It's fine that you enjoy the map on your LAN, but you have to appreciate that we are not on your LAN, and collectively have different ideas of what makes a fun map. You ask for our opinions - no matter how good your map is, or how fun you find it to play, it is very unlikely that everbody will like it. In this case, many people will not find the map fun, simply because of the very high r_speeds - this may not be a problem for you, but in posting here, you have asked what we think.

Nice lighting effects and nice layout. This would be a great map for DM or CTF.

Looks very fun indeed, I like the texture work alot, it all looks like it blends well.

I made a map very similar to this one, but scrapped it at 90% complete cause i couldn't get the r_speeds to less than 1000...

Looks very playable I think You should have continued the work. It is obvious that not everyone can play high r_speeds maps but I think there are many people who would like to play more complicated maps and have the right hardware to do it. We have a low polygon version of Camper Hunting which we played 2 years ago on our K6-2 400Mhz with a Voodoo3 2000 and it ran at an average of 20-25fps with 3 players. I don't understand why everyone should make maps with as much polygons as they had 5 years ago when we played Half-Life on an Intel Pentium 166MMX with no hardware acceleration. Some people just play newer games like UT2003 or Q3 but We think HL's gamestyle is unique and that is why We still want to create maps for it. If You don't have the right hardware or You do not like their style just don't play them.

the point i feel you continue to miss, either accidentally, or otherwise is.. we all know how to map, all with varying degrees of success, we know what makes r_speeds, what doesn't, and how to justify them.

this map, and the other, just do NOT have a justified r_speeds level vs. detail involved.

the map shows no optimization at all, just rampant r's

step back, take a breather and listen to us, we don't care if your map is played or not, whom likes it, who thinks its crap, what we do care about is, the proper tutelage of mappers in the art of editing... this map breaks all of the fundamental rules of editing for HL, all in the name of larger pc specs.... we find the concept, unacceptable.

if you want to learn, the first step to fixing something is admitting its broken.. if you must build a map that has r_speeds in excess of 1000 have a damned good reason... lazy isn't one of them.

for the record, you are not alone in your concepts, many mappers have fallen into this trap.. but in the end... well they either learned, or they were incapable of learning..

which will you be i wonder

Doesnt matter how good your pc is, The engine is not suited to high r_speed's it will slow down on any pc purely because of the engine.