Render problems causing high r_speeds

Hey.

Been working on this project for about 12 hours with no problems at all When i started laying roof on the building, my r_speeds would go very high, so i deleted the roof again.

I thought it would fix it, but now at some points of the map it renders everything through the walls causing 1800+ w poly

I have taken some pictures in software mode which really showed me what brushes were the problems: As you can see here everything is fine when i stand close to the window.
w-poly count was about 215 right here When i take a couple of step backwards, you can see it renders lots of glass walls through the wall. (they are func_breakable)and i suspect it renders the whole map aswell here
w-poly count is over 1800 right here

So the w-poly changed like that just from walking a few steps back. It is like this at various places in the map and only a few places give good r_speeds

As said, everything worked perfectly fine at some point with the same walls etc.
Just suddenly this started to happen.

I would really appreciate some kind help here!
since i basically thought about the cause the whole day without finding a fix

So i turn to you experienced mappers out there. I am sure someone has had this problem before.

Thank you
Trucker

9 times out of ten the r_speed issue is because someone forgot to do a full compile. Up to a certain point fast compiles will suffice but from then on to get an accurate reading you must do a full compile.

Other causes:
[*]You do not have adequate vis blocking.
[*]You are using older/out moded tools.
[*]You have a hole and the compile was interrupted.

Try seeing if any of these are the issue and get back to us.
Also, load in DEV mode and turn r_speeds on so WE can see the numbers.
Its nice to see someone using r_drawflat. Its much more reliable imo.

Good luck.. Welcome to Snarkpit

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The best things in life, aren't things.

func_walls and other entities don't block vis, you need to keep those vis blocking brushes as world objects. Also tying multiple brushes to one entity will create a see one, see all type situation.

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Aaron's Stuff

Cheers for the fast replies!

@ Orpheus

This makes sense. I do suspect the full compile thing now, as none of this map was changed from when it worked perfectly fine.

I do not see the place to use zhlt-commands ( -full ). Are they put in the .bat file somewhere?

Actually, I don't know if i have used fast compile so far, but with compile times of 50 seconds i believe i have?

@ Le Chief

I found out about the func_wall thing the hard way
At one point i tried to make every wall, that had touched the ceiling into a func_wall
I will never do that again haha. Lucky i did it in a new "save as".

One question on the "see one, see all"
If i have made a glass wall section and tied it to the breakable, will duplicating the wall cause the "see one, see all (duplicates)" situation or not?

The Zoner's tools (ZHLT) have to downloaded. The never come with the editor.

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Never think about bad things!
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Yeah i got ZHLT,
Just need pointers of where to put all http://zhlt.info/command-reference.html these when compiling

I have not mapped for HL1 in forever but this tutorial still applies. Use it and all your compile woes should disappear. There are a shitload of ways to compile but this one is error proof. Use it at least till you get more confident.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

So you would suggest to use this HLCC compiler instead of batchcompiling?

and Cheers for the answer, i will make sure to try it as a fix!

No I do not suggest it so much as it is a course to try. I used HLCC. I preferred a batch compiler. That said, HLCC will generate a great Bat for you upon request.

The only reason I suggest it is because it can show you many settings for different bat files... AND its a great first stepping stone for learning how to compile.

That said.. Hammer compiles decently. There was a time people used bat file compilers to save ram. These days, ram is much less an issue. You might try that route.

Also, exporting to map is a great way to find errors. Not that this is you problem, but its always good to remember.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Okay.

So i tried the HLCC

Is it supposed to compile when clicking the blue button? because mine didnt, so i used it to generate a .bat file and used it through Zhlt

This looked different from the old compile and took twice the time.

Ingame i still had the same problems though

Is it because i made a mistake in the HLCC or is my map doomed?

Few maps are doomed. All you'd have to do is look at a Doc Rock map and you'd know that anything is releasable.

Seriously though, we have a shitload of tutorials on optimizing maps. Try some of them. Without actually seeing the map I cannot determine the areas that need addressed. It sounds to me like a minor vis blocking situation. Especially if you have received no error messages.

HLCC is very old. It might not work well BUT it will only compile .map files. NOT .rmf's You need to export to map before using it.

You might try zipping your bsp and seeing if someone will look at it for you.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Yeah.

The problem is though, that it wasn't always like this.

At unchanged areas this error occurs, and i had done nothing to optimize it before.

That is why i suspect an invisible error somewhere, which i am simply not skilled enough to solve.

http://www.2shared.com/file/cPaEJsLO/trucker_map_problem.html
^^ i have zipped it as you suggested containing the .rmf , the .rmx , the .map
And a compile log from last compile
I would really appreciate if someone skilled could look at this, while i try any last desperate attempt to solve it myself.

It would really make my day and i would be very ashamed to put all this hard work to waste

Thanks for the replies
Trucker

Give'm time. Someone may step up to the plate. I imagine its something real simple. If no one gets to it by the time I get home, I'll give'r a looksee.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Yeah. it's probably very simple for the mappers used to it

Sounds great to have you look at it if no one does
My guess is you are out Trucking?

Just left Edison New Jersey. Right now I'm in West Chester Pennsylvania. I will be heading for Fort Worth Texas soon.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

I don't think the -full parametre will help much, worth a try though.

If you're getting geometry that shouldn't be rendered it means that/those vis leafs are visible to the engine for whatever reason such as: leak, poor map design, small gap in the geometry, converting a vis-blocking brush to an entity etc.

"Trucker" said:
One question on the "see one, see all"
If i have made a glass wall section and tied it to the breakable, will duplicating the wall cause the "see one, see all (duplicates)" situation or not?

No thank god otherwise hold shift + drag to clone would be basically redundant Every brush within the same entity instance will be rendered if at least one member can be seen so only tie multiple brushes to the same entity if theyre next to eachother

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Aaron's Stuff

@ Orpheus
Sounds great, i don't know much about the states though, as i am from Denmark myself

@ Chief
What really tricks my mind is about the "poor map design"
At one point, it had no problems at all. Now i got these problems with the exact same design as before.

Really a maze this one s:
well, atleast i got the glass duplicate worry out of concern now

There are two oddities that no one has ever given a satisfactory answer IMO.

[*]There is some threshold where maps change from "NO PROBLEMS" to "PROBLEMS"
No one has ever said at what point this occurs but every map does it.

[*]There are certain problems that are caused by absolutely nothing, and even sometimes go away without altering a damned thing.

These two things happen with startling regularity. If you do continue mapping you will invariably come across both many times.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Yeah. I see that problems can occur from out of nowhere.

Also the problem is without a doubt that it renders the map through walls, which should block VIS.

My big problem is, i have no idea now what can cause it

Somewhere here at Snarkpit there is a diagram of how the HL1 engine draws. It cannot draw through vis blocks but it can draw over and under vis blocking. So, if you are way back in a corner of some area and in a straight line you have vis blocking BUT the engine can see over the top, the wall is doing you absolutely no good.

In other words, the engine can see bounced... IE, over the wall reflected off the sky, into the next area.

This may not be your problem, but it could be. Areas need to be independently sealed with vis block. If it is possible for you to go over the top of the wall into the next area, so the engine can.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

I have tried with a roof on, which would also teoretically VIS block over the top.
And it's perfectly alligned on a 32 grid on the bottom with the floor.

It's pretty hard to explain a problem i don't know much about, which is why it would be such a big help for some kind person to get the zip and take a look

Home.
I was really hoping to finding your bsp in that zip.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Welcome back!

Ah well.

Since it might have been compiling problems i did not include it.

It isn't really vital, is it?

Well, for my case it might be. I don't have anything editor wise installed for HL1. I haven't mapped in a very long time. I dunno.

It wouldn't take a minute to zip your bsp and upload it someplace.

I wonder if you can view it in HL2 editor...
I'll get back to you. In the mean time. zip that bsp.

[edit]
I tried. I cannot remember how to set up hammer using steam. I cannot even find the damned texture set.
Anyway.. I looked at what I could (which wasn't much) and it looks like you have everything in one area. Albeit, you got everything in separate cubicles, but essentially in one area. HL can see over those partitions.

I'll know better if/when you zip that bsp.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Hey.

I'm not totally sure what you mean by having it all in one place.

I have also tried with a roof on it, which didn't work out either

Anyways, here is the .bsp and a compile log for you to look at:
http://www.2shared.com/file/sTRml1Gs/trucker_bsp.html

Cheers for the help dude!
I hope we can get this one resolved
Trucker

OK, I am not saying this bad. I am really amazed the r_speeds are so low TBH. The map is entirely built on the same plain. In other words, you have no variance in height from one side to the other. Considering all the func_walls you have this is really astounding. You need to make the areas/zones/rooms be on various heights throughout your map. In essence you have a killbox with a whole shitload of stuff inside it. Its not bad, but its not good either. If you could say, take each of your sections and stack them atop one another and add elevators or stairways, you get a much smaller play area and the r's would drop. Each section by itself is not a problem, its having a zone 1,000 feet across that's causing you grief. (a slight exaggeration but its still a long line of sight.)

Now, I know you aren't ready to build this kind of map. But it will give you an idea of how to make a freaking HUGE map and still keep things under control. I ain't lying. This map is the biggest HL1 map I know of in existence and it will show you lots of how things are done.

Anyway's, the only thing I can suggest is to decrease the outside area to just a footpath along the outside parameter if you want to retain the building "as is"

Other than that, it's a lost cause. Sorry dood. Its going to be one of those maps that shows you what NOT to do I think.

Please feel free to get more advice.
Orph

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Well, i appreciate your comments alot.
And i know about how to make maps small and block vis with walls etc.
This map is a replica of the school i attend atm, so i can not just make an elevator

What the thread is really about is a render problem.
The thing that makes it see through walls at specifically the point i screenshot.

I know the big large areas will give a high poly count, but at the screenshot location there is no large area at all, and it did not always behave that way.

That is the thing i do not understand. Especially since it came suddenly after working perfectly for 8 hours.

And if it shows me what NOT to do, it won't help me a bit, since i don't know what went wrong at all, so i can't learn from it

This would probably be the last map i ever create. I don't want to spend hours on making a map and then suddenly this outdaded engine messes it all up
Just eliminates the enthusiasm.

If you can't see the problem, like myself,
then Thanks for the replies though!

Dood, this out dated engine has created master pieces. Just because I cannot help you build this one, doesn't mean someone cannot.

Plus another thing you haven't taken into account. Maps of this nature don't usually play well or turn out all that well so you haven't really done anything wrong, that hasn't been done wrong before now. There is a reason why there aren't many maps like yours.

Still though, its your call. I do feel that if you are this easily discouraged you're not likely to go on to another more advanced engine. They are MUCH harder to map for.

The HL1 engine will teach you valuable lessons on what not to do and what works. Some of which will carry on to other engines.

I am sorry you didn't get the resolution you wanted. However, if you knew exactly how many dozens of maps I scrapped you'd not feel nearly as bad about this one. In the end I guess its better you discover you aren't ready to commit to level editing. Its a thankless task or more accurately, its a fleetingly thankful task.

Hope you hang around a while/ Perhaps you can locate some other school type maps and see how they did things.

Orph

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Don't get me wrong.
I do really appreciate your help and comments alot!

The thing is, i really got pissed at this one since it just happened suddenly.
Guess there's not much to do with it.

Actually i started at the source engine, which i found was alot easier.
This just started as a fun idea in school, since we play 1.6 in class alot
So was more of a "let's see if i can make this" thing.

It's not really that i have a big passion for mapping. This idea was just very inspiring for me.

I think i will try to add some Vis blocking of some kind just to test out things, so i might try other stuff and new maps. But i am not sure i have the motivation.

Again, thanks alot for all the help!
Trucker

topic was too long to read (lol), so just in case the issue hasn't been solved yet. Only world brushes block VIS, so if all your walls are func_walls (any entity) with glass, all the rooms will be drawn. Unfortunately there is no way around this outside of modifying the layout so it "tricks" the player into seeing more space when hes really not.

hasn't been solved, and probably won't.
The walls are all world brushes

reads thread

Yeah i've done maps like this before (mimicking my school and calling it columbine - lol). However one of the key things I've discovered was that in real life you can see through the glass and be rendering all the things on the other side of the glass. Thats all the classrooms, and all the pencils/desks inside etc. I've gotten discouraged with this too in my early days, as a result I had tons of wide open areas that never ran well in the game, so I scrapped them.

IF there existed area portals in the original HL engine, then it could be worth while. However it only exists in goldsrc (? idk i never bothered) and the source engine. This map is very doable in the source engine if you read up on area portals (its like foggy windows that block whats being drawn inside a room). I suggest looking at dm_island17 source my mazemaster, it has a lot of good area-portal work in it with all his houses, and he still was able to create an enjoyable experience with a wide open map.

also

You could also just make the glass non-transparent for far away buildings that the player will never reach, or on classrooms that you cannot enter (like the lights are off? so you see opaque glass - its been done before), and then just make a few open classrooms (that are vis blocked away from one another - as in other areas of the map) to direct flow. This way you could "trick" the player into thinking its an entire school filled with classes that he can't enter.

omegaslayer said:
You could also just make the glass non-transparent for far away buildings that the player will never reach, or on classrooms that you cannot enter (like the lights are off? so you see opaque glass - its been done before), and then just make a few open classrooms (that are vis blocked away from one another - as in other areas of the map) to direct flow. This way you could "trick" the player into thinking its an entire school filled with classes that he can't enter.

This is pretty much what i have done with no effect. Again, i refuse this is caused by a poor mapping failure. It's not getting those high r_speeds at the big open areas, but when looking inside small areas, where it renders through the world brushes.

Thanks for the tips tho