Kind of dead around here

So, I come out of Snarkpit posting retirement,(Mental retirement that is. Life has been handing me my hat of late,which is my explanation for my extended absence, but that's another story), and finally post on the Pit and nothing new happens for over a month?. This website seems to be completely dead. What's up with that?. Lot's of "views", no "posts" whatsoever. Perhaps a new direction is in order?. Maybe a gaming/tech based website, "NOT" focused on Half Life alone, but rather on gaming in general?,with some more tech related sub-categories?. (You know, hardware, software, that sort of thing) Someone's paying for this, but to be quite frank, it's one of the most desolate sites on the web. The fact that it retains the HL moniker as its purpose just seems odd at this point.
After several years of life's suckiness I'm coming back to life, and perhaps "The Snartkpit" should too. This was always one of my favorite websites, but of late, it's just an occasional post from a distant alumni, and weeks upon end of nothing from anybody. What say ye?. I'm thinking "The Techpit". LOL.

It's been discussed, there's various plans, but everyone is pretty busy.

There's nothing stopping anyone from starting any topics they'd like ... but people seem to only want to talk about how no one is talking or ask obscure mapping questions.

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

I agree that something has to be done, but this time we need to finish what we started, and by that I mean that the current version still feels unfinished, the snarkmark thing was a wonderful idea but it's still unfinished, the default avatars are a bit random, the site is still pretty buggy sometimes (it happens a lot that I am forced to delete the cookies from snarkpit to be able to use it again) and all those little things.

There's nothing stopping anyone from starting any topics they'd like ... but people seem to only want to talk about how no one is talking or ask obscure mapping questions.

I could make new topics, but they wouldn't get many replies anyway, not like it used to.

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Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/Nibgames

The code base is sort of a mess. It's not going to be fixed unless Larchy (I believe) who wrote it comes back and finishes it ... chances are he wouldn't remember what he was doing anyway, there aren't exactly a ton of comments and the code isn't very descriptive. There's also nothing really explaining the design or thought process. I was looking into things like the spoiler tag issue and it was just a labyrinth. There's multiple errors combining in various ways producing really weird results that make tracking the issue down a really difficult problem.

It would be simpler (and easier, and more motivating) to just start over and maybe translate the database into something usable or at least an archive, but again, people are busy and it wouldn't actually solve the big issues (though it would be a working point ... something we don't currently have).
The usage numbers of the site are really interesting. There actually isn't any real kind of traffic issue, the problem is participation ... how do you get people who aren't currently participating to participate by just doing what you already did again?

That means there needs to be some alteration in identity, which is a hard subject because you want people to really feel compelled to stick around without the baggage and restraints due to nostalgia, but you still want to make a next level kind of experience for people whom are familiar.

This stuff has definitely been talked about before (and currently) behind the scenes. There's a plan ... there just needs to be time. I would hope that people would give everything a legitimate chance ... it would certainly be better than what we have now or have had for a long time.

But please, be aware, this is not a simple problem with any simple fixes.

One of the things that could help the most is if people actively attempted to be apart of the community again. No single individual has control over that. This isn't a site-creator-content driven affair, the backbone of what you're staring at on the monitor is a userbase. People would come for content that was created, but they stayed for the other members. Right now members only show they care ... by only talking about what's wrong and not even attempting to talk about other things that are more broad or interesting.

Even when people do start threads ... it's not stuff people would respond to much even in a busy community. It's all personal information type conversations. We have a list thread just listing what rig you have, a couple look what I made threads, a guy asking for math help ... where's the stimulating topics? These aren't them. They're fantastic in the fact that most of them are members attempting to share something with others ... but the way people treat that kind of interaction online is, if the person isn't showing something amazing or they don't know who they are ... they don't really care. That kind of thing is only going to be popular if there's an active community where everyone is really comfortable with everyone ... we don't have that anymore. Some of the threads are just people attempting to get information. Which isn't a positive feeling thing to respond to if it's not surrounded by casual conversation (it's more like someone taking advantage of the activity level) it wasn't asked because people are good at it ... it was asked because the community isn't doing anything. And in general the only stuff that's really being tossed around is close circle type of conversations ... that isn't going to make most people talk anymore, they don't know who people are ... or they've forgotten people. You have to talk like it's a new place and you're trying to get to know strangers. You have to talk about large generic interests that everyone can comment on. Stuff like that.

I can put up some REALLY general topics that people might bite on to ... but my threads don't traditionally get people involved, and it might be possible that it's just so long gone ... that people too closely associated this place with specific people ... that there's really nothing that can happen outside of an identity change to get people involved.

I would love it if people could get back to a really solid sort of friendly atmosphere like we're old buddies meeting up again ... but the site, right before popularity dropped like a stone ... was not exactly friendly, it was very negative about almost everything related to the site and what it was about. And I think most of those people left and they just never want to come back.

So, Long post. Lots of thoughts. Maybe some hard truths. I want the site to be alive again. Riven wants the site to be alive again (He shells out money for it, after all!). But it's just not possible without community support.

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

Being busy has been around since the site was created. The site always moved on in spite of that so I am disinclined to buy into that theory as anything more than an excuse.
I've been a staunch supporter of this site since week 1. I have always contended that the site was much too focused on HL and diversity was and will be our only means of continuance.
I was out voted far to many times in the early days for me to now be only vaguely interested. The only way I will ever put as much time into this place again is if I see that the time will be not only appreciated but reciprocated.
Simply put, SnarkPit in its present form simply isn't worth resurrection.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

I don't see how decisions made by people who aren't even around anymore before current site runners were even members, no less, are remotely relevant now ...

I agree that one of the site's greatest weaknesses was always being so closely tied to Half-Life. It's like issue #1 anytime it's discussed, and it's an exclusivity that will be the first thing to disappear. Absolutely.

But, if you guys want to turn this conversation into something a little more positive (which would be nice), and not just be a bunch of whiners What would your dream game community offer? Not just "forums", but what would you want it to be about? What would you want the reason for being there to be? The spirit of the place ... the niceties of using it ... how do you want to be able to express yourself in it? Things like that.

This doesn't mean what you list will be reality, or anything like that, but it would help with re-imagining what needs to exist, stirring idea pots a little more vigorously.

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

Adam, what you don't see could fill a book. You are one of our brightest but you are also laser focused on what you deem relevant.
Sometimes I walk around maps and just look. Specifically fallout 3, New Vegas and The stalker series.
The amount of detail in New Vegas is astounding. If you guys have the time just walk the canyons and such.
What I have also noticed is that they are doing NO MORE than what we always tried to do. The ONLY differences are that their engines could succeed where ours failed.
My point is that level editing hasn't improved nearly as my h as the engines. The people building the levels are no more talented than we were/are.
I feel that a website dedicated 100% to editing is still possible as long as its all level editing.
The amount of errors in NV would never have survived the gauntlet known as SnarkPit in the old days. I found blanc errors so bad the displacements were floating above the surrounding terrain. Clips that you couldn't get off of and overlapping solids everywhere yet the game went commercial and was a huge success.
We can do no worse. All we need is motivation that exceeds the maudlin around here.
/2 cents

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The best things in life, aren't things.

I agree with both Crono and Orph(to a certain degree). Perhaps a set of sub-categories for game reviews other than HL, and hardware reviews/news. I hate to say it, but when I see a brand new map for HL1 Opposing force, or Blue Shift, I'm as disinterested as one can get here in 2013, considering the current level of graphics technology being used. I'm several computers away from even having those mods installed anyways. Of course, it wouldn't hurt Gabe Newell to F'ing release the next Half life already!@. But in the mean time maybe we could all band together a bit with some more current gaming fare.
On another note, it does seem like all there is are strangers on this site anymore, except for the dozen or so regulars, I know none of these young whipper snappers.

I offered to pay or help pay to hire a pro web master to design a new site. I am still VERY unclear why we haven't done so already. It would eliminate this excuse about busy lives.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

It's always been my impression that the mapping community overall simply took a serious blow from the release of HL2. It's not necessarily that people started mapping any less, although maybe they did, but that mapping simply became easier. Towards the end of HL1, what made mapping exciting was that we had people making constant efforts to give new life to the old engine -- finding ways to make convincing terrain, foliage, waves and so on, without creating excessive lag. (And this is not even to mention the sort of insane mechanics and effects you'd see in a map like GMDM2.) When HL2 came out, this problem-solving simply became unnecessary, since the engine provided a ready-made solution to most of these challenges. And consequently, even when someone makes a good-looking map, the fact that they did so is much less interesting. If you make good-looking terrain, for instance, it isn't because you devised some ingenious new method for doing so, it's because you made use of a tool that was already there.

I think this is more or less what explains what happened to the 'Pit, whatever more specific local issues went into the result. If there are fewer challenges left in mapping, there will be proportionately less interest in a site one of whose main purposes was to offer insight about how to tackle those challenges (in the form of tutorials) and to evaluate attempts by others to tackle them (through reviews and critiques).

I don't think there's much cause for gloom, however. HL3 may take a while yet to come out, but it will eventually, and presumably will use a new engine with tools similar to the last. The Pit has already shown amazing longevity, even if it's been much quieter in recent years, and I expect it will still be around to see the release. When that happens, of course, the problem I've mentioned will only be exacerbated; but at least for a time, I'm sure, we can expect at least a temporary upsurge in activity, one that might well make the long interval of dormancy worthwhile. For my part, I plan to go back to mapping when that happens -- in fact, I would have already, if an absurdly stupid error in the Hammer editor hadn't killed a project of mine on the verge of completion (see my last post in the editing problems forum).

I was just about to mention the same thing Cassius. When HL3 comes out, the site will have a mini rebirth, with all the oldies coming back to see what everyone else thinks about it, and discussions about the most amazing game created in all history (as no doubt we all know it will be ).

I think to solve the issue of the mentioned newbies, we should do what some TV shows do when they change over their lead characters. First they have the lead character meet the new character, and for a few episodes, they are both in the show. When the audience gets used to the new character and accepts them, the old one gets tossed away. Now I'm not saying us oldies should get tossed away. Rather, the newbies should all mingle with us a little and get integrated into the community, and therefore strengthen it.

As with all you guys, I really would like to get back into mapping some day. I believe it's like music, speaking another language, arts etc. It works on a different part of the brain, and is (most of the times) a relaxing hobby. At least I think so anyway. Perhaps having us all involved again will inspire me, and maybe others too, to start mapping again.

Regarding the specificity of the site, it's my favourite part of it. The fact that this is a website dedicated to Half-Life and its descendants makes me go back to it time after time (albeit with large gaps in between), to see how the HL community is doing, to see if there are news to do with Valve Software and its games. If The Pit became mainstream, it would just become... too mainstream. I guess what I mean is that I think it should always remain Valve-related, but with some restructuring, we could make all other topics possible, on side forums. Main focus should, as Orph said, remain level editing and HL, but we can have some changes that enable some broadening of our horizons.

I like to drop in here from time to time also. Id hate to see the site try to be too many different things, ultimately I think that would kill it in the end. I think the focus should remain level/map creation and editing. A place to share new creative and innovative ideas. Theres was quite a bit of that before HL2 was released, following that time I faded off the site so I can't offer any input from that point on.

It would be great to see a section honoring some of the mapping artiists of the past and present, maybe something like planet halflife used to do with their artcles and reviews. maybe add a news and reviews section focusing on current and past creations from game artists. It would be a lot of work but if many people contributed the work load would be spread out amongst many. I don't know if any of you go to drudge report and read the news but adding a game related news link area would be cool. Provide links to mappers and artits websites when something interesting is present. it may keep some people coming back to see whats going on in the gaming and game artist world. It would be a lot of work to keep something dynamic like that going, maybe too high maintenance for a non-profit website. If there are any changes done to site I think the focus should remain "how do we attract game artidts and creative individuals", thats how yuou are going to build a community and draw in the right people..

I'm hoping to contribute to the site soon and hopefully get my maps back up on this site some time soon. I've got some new stuff that I think will atleast be some what interesting at a minimum. All HLDM maps, I've tried to do something innovative in each of them, fun factor being the most important of course.

please excuse any odd spelling or typos, Im typing this on a Kindle and touch screen typing is a PITA.

Wow.... The long posts.... I miss them!

I've heard a lot of great ideas and 'hard truths', and I can assure you all: Active or not, the site will continue. Crono is right about there being a plan in the works.

Full disclosure:

The background conversation has been driven mainly by Crono and myself. Crono having web coding experience and the ability to understand (as much as possible) the current standing of the site's code, we've had to make some realizations about what would need to happen for the new site to work. Hard Truth: The current site cannot be fixed to do all the things we'd like it to do. A new site will need to be built.

The Good News is the decision to build a new site based on the features and existing content gives us a rare advantage over other communities, because we have a proven database of content that will attract a continuing potential user base. In a sense, we've already proven ourselves a capable resource.

Background Noise: Over two years ago, I started a separate (secret) forum to begin conversations about what people would have wanted to see in a new Pit. What happened? -Nothing. I invited select members from the Pit, and outside the Pit, and could never get it functioning the way I hoped. It was a way to keep the conversation organized and focused. But that was with the assumption there would be too much to say. Well, it took a year for me to realize it wasn't going anywhere.

However... There were conversations happening. They were still private, and only with me. People from around the community who I keep in touch with were showing their interest. Owners and admins from other Valve-related websites, have people that want to support and contribute to SnarkPit! Actual professional designers and web hosts want to support us. The only problem is: We didn't have any direction. There have been plenty new ideas mentioned for a new site, but it's so disorganized and jumbled. There aren't any coherent visions for what the new site would 'be' let alone look like or do...

So, I started to mine the forums and copy the conversations into quick .txt references for myself. There needed to be a design document for others to agree on and hand-off to a designer to work from. That's what's been going on in the background. A cumulative design document to express with as much clarity, what the new Pit needs to be.

Orph said it well:

Orpheus said:
We can do no worse. All we need is motivation that exceeds the maudlin around here.

A dedicated secret forum didn't work. So, I'd rather have a messy, passionate argument versus nothing. I can still mine the consensus out of that at least. I suppose it's just the nature of the internet or the Pit, that that must be how we get this going.
Also, I'll admit, I haven't been a very good Admin or leader when it comes to organizing this and making decisions. the ball has been dropped on my part... (several times). -Mostly out of sheer neglect and disinterest. I have been moving on with my life, and in some sense have moved farther away from mapping and gaming than I thought I would have. But I am not so far removed that I want to pass up the Pit, and my (still burning) interest in game design. I want to continue to see the Pit develop. So count me on board, and at the very least I can continue to contribute funds to keep the servers running.

The Current Standing:

The design document isn't finished of course. In fact most of my notes remain in my .txt files. But based on what you guys have mentioned in this thread, it would seem a lot of that has already been addressed.

This thread has motivated me to resurrect or start a new wish-list discussion thread with emphasis on organizing and agreeing upon ideas. It will certainly help me to keep interested on it, and get the design document finished. I'll start a new thread with a little more positive title and post the manifesto for the new Pit. So that we have a point to agree on.

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Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202

This is a big topic; too big for just one thread. I'll make this a new Forum....
Might as well do this right.

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Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202

What up! Been a while.

If the site is going to be updated, it should be taken into account that mapping has changes over the years. The amount of work to push out a detailed map is astronomical. These projects are now best tackled by small teams of people. A new site should encourage the formation of small teams of people to work on a project in unison. The site should offer tools to facilitate the progress of a group effort. Such as private forums or other communication tools. Possibly add a file system similar to git hub or dropbox, that can only be accessed by group members.

I think about my cs map every once in a while. Wish i had time to go back and finish it.

PS: I now own a 3D printer!

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Reality has become a commodity.

Ok, new Forum has been created!

Welcome to the Redesign Forum:

SnarkPit Redesign

Read the new Stickied threads, and start posting away!

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Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202