A HEALTHY political topic.

I have already said that I don't claim to know why one person is gay and another person isn't. I don't have a theory for that.

you are disagreeing with me cause of how i say gays come into being

Yes!! That is exactly what I am doing! I am saying that it is wrong for you to, from no evidence, assume that being gay is a decision that a person makes, and then based on this assumption, hate that person! I am then going on to say that if you do not think it is a decision the person makes, then you are even more in the wrong for hating a person for an aspect of themselves that they cannot control.

So basically, either you think it is a decision (based on no evidence to suggest this is the case, and faced with evidence to the contrary), or you don't. Then you hate people as a result of this 'decision'/attribute. In either case, this is not something you can reasonably do, any more than you can hate somebody because of their race, colour (not choices), or religion (a choice).

jeff, i really need to run, i am late.. but IMO if you do not have a theory to counter mine, you have no opion worth listening to.

discounting mine, is ok, but at least have a justified opinion why, just don't say some crap like "orph you have no proof so.."

gimme a break, most ideas and beliefs are just that, feeling with no certain way to justify.. i don't need to prove i believe, i dont need to convince, all i have to do is believe, and thats enuff.

conyinue to tell me i am wrong, it doesnt make it more plausable, it only mekes you look stupid, for arguing with a convicted stupid person...

if my explaination is not good enuff after umpteen pages, and if our live very well hung in the balance, i could not make it plainer, and you would still die cause of your inability to extrapolate with the dats you currently have.

cyas jeff, try to work up some sort of a theory, cause i will surely discount you otherwise, at least i have an opinion, you only have the ability to say "you're wrong orph" :rolleyes:

Whether I have my own idea about why somebody is gay is totally irrelevant, because I am not trying to debate this fact.

My point is that if you think people choose to be gay, and hate them because of this, then you are just plain wrong. I know you don't like me just saying that you are just plain wrong, but here's some news for you it is possible that you are not always right! It can still be your opinion, fine, but as I have said before, 'an opinion is meaningless if it is based on ignorance and false assumptions!' - explain to me how that sentance is wrong? If you don't think people choose to be gay, then you still cannot reasonably hate somebody for being gay, because it is out of their control, just like race or gender.

I don't know exactly how a printer works, but if somebody comes along saying 'well, theres a hamster in a wheel and...', then I can tell them what they are saying is nonsense without having an alternate theory. Evidence exists that is sufficient to disprove one theory, but insufficient to formulate a better one - in the case of this debate, the idea that people choose to be gay has been shown to be wrong from the words of a gay person! How can you maintain that gay people choose to be gay in the face of such evidence, and if you do not think people choose to be gay, how can you seperate your hatred from racial hatred?

[edit] without saying "you said i'm wrong! it's my opinion so shut up" [/edit]

i came to terms with my own sexuallity a long time ago, when i realised i was a lesbian trapped in a mans body. but my sexuallity is unimportant at this point in the debate.

as i said before, there are millions of reasons (IMO) as to why someone would be attracted to the same sex, and that some of these reasons are more biologicaly based than others. i would also say there are as many reasons as to why others are attracted to the opposite sex.

Jeff, reading your post, it looks like you are hell-bent against the idea that there is any choice between having this attraction and commiting a sexual act.

what about the poor oppressed misunderstood minority of people who are deeply attracted to their pet rottweiller. the attraction is one thing, but is it acceptable to allow this to progress to a sexual act?

before your retort with "the dog didn't give consent", try it on the next rottweiller you see and find out if its possible without the dogs approval.

and Lep, it surprises me that you think you've only ever known two gay people in real life.

I think he means he only knows two people who he knows for sure are gay.

I am hell bent against the idea that people choose that they are going to be gay. Orph says he hates somebody just for being gay. This is what I am opposed to.

I'm tired of beating my head against a brick wall. And shouldn't we be focusing on more important issues, like getting Detail Textures working smoothly, building a library of good targas people can use, and updating our maps to make them look even more 1337?!

Jinx said:
I'm tired of beating my head against a brick wall. And shouldn't we be focusing on more important issues, like getting Detail Textures working smoothly, building a library of good targas people can use, and updating our maps to make them look even more 1337?!

This is true. I never got detailtextures to work in the end.

Thread derailment ahoy!

fishy said:
i came to terms with my own sexuallity a long time ago, when i realised i was a lesbian trapped in a mans body. but my sexuallity is unimportant at this point in the debate.

Hello sailor! Got a phone number? :x :x :dodgy:

Arf.

the referance to hamsters in this thread is worrying

blu_chze said:

Monqui said:
In my experience, some people are just too close-minded to step outside of their little boxes for just one minute and take a look at the world through someone elses eyes.

i think thats the main problem with people in general, not necesasarily just restricted to this topic. Open mindness is a complex compisition of maturity experience and many different manners of thinking (crictical, analytical plus others, all too varying ideas etc), as well as motivation. If someone has all these traits, with no motivation to use them they will be as closed minded as the next person.

All this requires considerable effort (liken this to the sad idea of 'its easier to hate then it is to love') and in todays world, unfortunately this effort is spent else where

then again you could have open minded but stuanch religoinist (sp?)(yes such people exsist, i know a few), brought up to disrespect homosexuals.

i think i made the point i wanted to

If close mindedness is immature, then gladly I will be immature. See, in a debate, there are several cheap tricks to make the other side abruptly look like idiots; one is to say 'stop being so close minded', as well as 'whoa, are you getting angry?' and 'stop trying to end the debate on your terms.' Instantly, anything said afterwards will be a result of their 'close mindedness'; myself, I prefer to be quite choosey on what I allow into my head.

You cannot expect just everybody to float around in their lives, receptive to all ideas and morals. Some people are quite closed on some areas, and one of these people is Orph; I think it's best to accept that though one side may be correct here, you can't altogether force him to rapidly shift to an entirely different opinion. That would make the debate even more meaningless, and even the most 'enlightened' opinion without value.

Here's an interesting, and more importantly relevant article on gay sheep. It proves that being gay is partially if not completely biological.

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle.jhtml?type=scienceNews&storyID=4514020&section=news

... And no, I wasn't looking up anything to do with gay sheep. :dodgy:

:biggrin:

dave, although i am a strong advocate of the sciences, many are not, especially gays, as it would be in this direction [color=limegreen][color=white]IF any cure[/color] is to be found and such.. no one wants to view themselves as a birth defect[/color] [edited for dave, as he is unable to read clearly] this comment leave it open to the fact it may NOT be a defect dave. keep an open mind my friend.

anyways, my point is, many people, no matter their gender preference, do not believe that we evolved from apes, IE a lower life form, as such, many will discount gay sheep as anything resembling gay humans, after-all sheep are sheep and humans are... not sheep.

i doubt any active gay will say, this is relevant.

i for one, am hopeful.. and appreciative none the less.. it is at least an effort to disprove my archaic thinking.

You speak like you know loads of gay people. You don't. You can't just make up statements like that. :smile: They wouldn't regard themselves as "defects" the same way you wouldn't call yourself a "defect" on the basis of your poor eyesight.

Anyone who believes we can't learn anything from animals is ignorant. Sheep were one of the early steps in learning about human cloning.

dave i agreed with you, why are you acting as if i didn't?

re-read what i wrote, and re-read what you wrote, and you said exactly the same thing.

i am thinking, that you are reading more into it cause you are under the impression that i am close minded to the situation, which is definitely not the case.

i have strong opinions, but i leave room for others, i just value them far less than my own, which BTW is how most people are, so i am not wrong, just most likely misguided.

i can view gays any way i wish, and hope above all else that a solution is found, be it a CURE for them, or a CURE for us who discriminate on them.

don't allow your over-sensitivity to reflect on me.. its unbecoming.

I was actually disagreeing with your generalisation that gays aren't advocates of science. I suppose I should have given my next point a seperate paragraph BUT I'M ONLY HUMAN DAMMIT JIM.. err Jon.

Alien_Sniper said:
I was actually disagreeing with your generalization that gays aren't advocates of science. I suppose I should have given my next point a separate paragraph BUT I'M ONLY HUMAN DAMMIT JIM.. err Jon.

its ok dave, if we agreed on everything, it would be boring..

i would like to stress, i am hopeful of any solution, and yes i do believe that the gay situation warrants one, even if many do not.

i am not generalizing gays, i am doing so for the issue.. hmm stupid text is failing me again. there is a solution out there, and it might just lie in this direction, whether you count being born gay as a defect is just semantics, the end is the same, if they are born, they are here, how you view it afterward is irrelevant, but IF they are born, then a solution lies within the womb, and can be solved.

I'm just bitter you're a member number higher, that's all.

waves fist I'll get you Rickenbaker.

I don't think there'll be a solution any time soon. Meddling with peoples brains isn't something that has been perfected quite yet. It'd be nice if they could do that sort of stuff though. Could eliminate all sexual desires in paedophiles and the like. Not for a while yet though. :smile:

Love ya jon. :wink:

Alien_Sniper said:
Love ya jon. :wink:

ditto my friend..

but genetics doesn't have to involve the brain.

could be as simple as detecting the gene that says "this individual will be attracted to men, and assuring the baby is born female, and vice-versa i suppose.

i don't think messing with someones brain is a solution, as abhorrent as i find gays, i wouldn't want them lobotomized in some flubbed up intra-uterine surgery.

i would rather keep things as is, then risk that.

I wasn't suggesting we mess with peoples brains, just that there are a lot of interesting things that could be done. If we could only turn off your "s**t your pants" gene. that would be quite an achievement. :smile:

Alien_Sniper said:
I wasn't suggesting we mess with peoples brains, just that there are a lot of interesting things that could be done. If we could only turn off your "s**t your pants" gene. that would be quite an achievement. :smile:

can't a day go by, without you telling everyone i have a problem :rolleyes:

my diaper bill, is mine alone, i don't need you sharing that knowledge with the whole world.. i got them all believing i only pee :wink:

i need to run master dave, take care.

kentucky bound

Without Orph this topic has totally died. LOL!

Without Orph this topic has totally died. LOL!

totally true.LOL

Skeletor said:
Without Orph this topic has totally died. LOL!

Hail the youth of today! Their powers of observation never cease to amaze me!

dude, and i was like, wtf?

lol