Xbox 2

i read in a newspaper article yesteday that microsoft have shiped the Xbox 2 development kits out to the developers its on a dual Apple G5 with a Radeon 9800 but they will be upgrading them when they get their custom ATI card

I never said any of this was 'bad' per-say. I just said I didn't approve of it as a console, because it isn't one, really. It's even the same architecture as your computer, unless your computer is insanely old or incredibly new.

Secondly, I'm well aware of how caches work. But, the X-Box is relying too heavily on them. the second you choose a differnet option from what is cached, you're screwed, basically (not that it wont work, just that it will take longer). In all actuality the X86 arch is one of the worst architectures you could base gamming on, it is not fast, and it very inneficient. (this the lean towards pipelinging and 64-bit processing)

Other consoles, such as GameCube, have caching as well, through memory only, thus the speed of the console (mostly on 1st party games though).

The whole point of everything I was saying is, it is a computer. Hands down. Same architecture, same uses as a computer (you can run Linux on it and make an X-Box a mail server). So, if you already have a computer, why, oh why, would you get an X-Box? This was my point. Other consoles that are out are not total computers, not just yet.

I wasn't knocking X-Box, or harrasing people who thought differently then I.

Also, if you develop in house hardware, it become much cheaper to produce in the long run of about 3 years or so, which means you can easily reduce prices, right now Microsoft is losing about $100 per console sold, because of hardware agreements, not that that is much money to the company in general.

Don't take my remarks as an attack on the product, I'm just saying what it is, I don't know how people got me saying it was basically a computer confused with it's a piece of s**t. Or something like that.

i read in a newspaper article yesteday that microsoft have shiped the Xbox 2 development kits out to the developers its on a dual Apple G5 with a Radeon 9800 but they will be upgrading them when they get their custom ATI card

Read the first post on this topic...

I'd like to take this opportunity to say that if you don't have an Xbox, you're missing out on the best game released so far this year.

Back to playing Ninja Gaiden.

Actually, I want to play that lol. And Fathom, but I'd rather shell out 30 bucks for a DVD drive then buy an X-Box for $150+ or so.

But yeah, Ninja Gaiden has always been awesome.

I just sorta skimmed over the topic so i guess i missed that

Crono said:
So, if you already have a computer, why, oh why, would you get an X-Box?

Because it has great games unavailable on other consoles (Otogi, Project Gotham Racing, Phantom Crash, JSRF, and the list goes on and on), and because playing games on a console is a vastly different experience to playing on some s**tty illegal emulator. Gone is the joy of chilling on your couch with 3 mates, 4 controllers and a big TV for some quality deathmatch on Halo's Blood Gulch. Gone is the joy of having a console that can also be used to watch the many films you and your flatmates frequently buy. Sure a DVD drive on your computer is cheaper, but its somewhat different to having a permanent DVD player sat in your lounge.

As for some of these daft other comments about "having a hard drive slowing it down" - who gives a s**t? Since when is it noticeable whether Soul Calibur 2 or Burnout 2 take slightly longer to load on the Xbox than the other systems? And to be honest I'd be incredibly sceptical about that. Even if it IS true, I'd happily put up with a second or two delay in order to get smoother graphics and a faster framerate, and in many cases a more suitable controller (particularly for racing games).

Omegaslayer, you are excedingly ignorant if you think DOA is one of few Xbox specific games. As for saying "almost all are available on the PC", I think you will find that very few are in truth. All I can hope is that if you ever contribute to the worlds gene pool, your offspring don't jump to such obviously untrue conclusions, and then state them like facts.

ReNo said:

Crono said:
So, if you already have a computer, why, oh why, would you get an X-Box?

Because it has great games unavailable on other consoles

all this assumes, that great games is a term everyone uses..

i for one, have very limited access or initiative to do so, but have never seen a game that compares to a PC version, and feel if it is truly great, it will either be released as a PC version 1st, or eventually at least.

"great games" is very subjective.. my likes are few, my time is even smaller to waste on them.. no xbox version of civilization is around that i know of, actually no games at all i would buy are for xbox..

sadly.. i do not consider someone else's idea of great to be motivation enuff.

anyways, the market exists in spite of PC's, so there must be some redeeming value..

/ 2 cents

For mindless multiplayer games :smile:

Xbox is great fun. But as for the online gaming bit, this is a market that I predict will never take a hold... The
PC is built for playing online games on, not the consoles that try to support this method of play. And as for that 64bit chips in the Xbox2... Sounds cool.

Mabye not online, but I know loads of people who network consoles together fo large multiplayer sessions (My brother always talks about how his frat house has 3 XBoxes networked together, and what a blast those are with the entire house screaming at each other, playing the same game).

Hell, even my school has some kind of setup so that you can plug your PS2/XBox into a school network type of thing. I'm not 100% sure on how this works, but I remember seeing that in one of the newsletters. There must be at least a decent sized group for the school to actually sponser it.

Because it has great games unavailable on other consoles (Otogi, Project Gotham Racing, Phantom Crash, JSRF, and the list goes on and on), and because playing games on a console is a vastly different experience to playing on some s**tty illegal emulator. Gone is the joy of chilling on your couch with 3 mates, 4 controllers and a big TV for some quality deathmatch on Halo's Blood Gulch. Gone is the joy of having a console that can also be used to watch the many films you and your flatmates frequently buy. Sure a DVD drive on your computer is cheaper, but its somewhat different to having a permanent DVD player sat in your lounge.

As for some of these daft other comments about "having a hard drive slowing it down" - who gives a s**t? Since when is it noticeable whether Soul Calibur 2 or Burnout 2 take slightly longer to load on the Xbox than the other systems? And to be honest I'd be incredibly sceptical about that. Even if it IS true, I'd happily put up with a second or two delay in order to get smoother graphics and a faster framerate, and in many cases a more suitable controller (particularly for racing games).

Omegaslayer, you are excedingly ignorant if you think DOA is one of few Xbox specific games. As for saying "almost all are available on the PC", I think you will find that very few are in truth. All I can hope is that if you ever contribute to the worlds gene pool, your offspring don't jump to such obviously untrue conclusions, and then state them like facts.

Okay, first of all, in most cases an emulator isn't illegal, the roms are.

Secondly, why are saying all this as if to defend something or someone? I never said you were wrong, I also never 'bashed' the X-Box...
However, I don't agree, I don't think it's game selection is all that great. There are a few, but not as many as you're implying here, in my opinion. I'd also rather play Halo on my computer :smile:

Third, Reno, dude, no one cares if you love your X-Box. I mean, seriously, that's fine if you do. I don't see why you're getting offended (as it looks from your post) at what I've said. Something no one's really noticed is that I just said what the thing would have to do the function...how is this knocking it or demeaning you or any of its owners in any way?

This happens a lot specifically in regards to the X-Box and I don't know why. (I've talked to several people, people I know personally who own one, and I talk to them about the hardware, because they would basically try to tell me that their XBox blows away any computer, which isn't true, and then they get all pissed off when I tell them what it really is running).

Also, why are you getting pissed off if someone calles it a computer? Because, in all actuality it is, if you don't think of it that way, this might be a technicality, or you should read up on how it processes data.

Anyway, stop getting pissed about this, it's not a big deal, it's just a freakin' console, sort of.

However, you cannot say what Microsoft is doing is okay in regards to XBox live. That thing is a pure rip off .... just like Final Fantasy XI :biggrin:

And one last note, I'd have to side with Orph on what he said. I feel the same way, except for the Civilazation part, never was a big fan of the series.

Anyway, bitch below as I know you guys will.

Crono said:
loth, where did you get those specs? Everything, even from MS, says they're building in house hardware this time around. (And inadvertantly trying to take over your entertainment center)

i got them from a reliable source........micro mart, who probably got them directly from microsoft

How does the PS2 handle multiplayer? Are there monthly fees for each game you want to play online?

ReNo said:
Omegaslayer, you are excedingly ignorant if you think DOA is one of few Xbox specific games. As for saying "almost all are available on the PC", I think you will find that very few are in truth. All I can hope is that if you ever contribute to the worlds gene pool, your offspring don't jump to such obviously untrue conclusions, and then state them like facts.

Yes I know there are a lot of games out for the x-box only and not on the comp, but really a lot of them are out for pc while they are on the x-box, I was merely mentioning DOA because it was one of the "trade mark" games of the x-box. I can't name all the games off the top of my head (odd world, fusion frenzy, Ninja Gaiden), but at first thought for x-box games I remember they are on the computer (morrowind, halo, jedi knight, etc.) the list goes on. I was merely stating that the x-box has its "big games" already on the computer, with the exception of one of the collest games for 2004: Ninja Gaiden

SuperCrazy said:
How does the PS2 handle multiplayer? Are there monthly fees for each game you want to play online?

It handels it fairly well (x-box is much better), there are fees for some games, cant name any, but socom is free online, but the only problem is people hack their 56k line into games like socom (where socom requires DSL) and it lags the entire game.

You are right Crono, I am getting needlessly angry about anti-Xbox people, to the extent that I could almost be called an Xbox fanboy. The truth is however, that I am against all fanboyism to a huge extent.

I hate when people cover their eyes and shout insults at games because they don't belong on their system of choice. I hate when blatantly poor games are given star treatment by gamers because it IS found on their system of choice. I hate when an FPS or strategy game is mocked simply because it finds itself on a console rather than the PC.

Is it so hard to look beyond the system and comment on the games themselves? Afterall, in essence the only REAL difference the system makes is the control system (except in extreme circumstances), which while it can be a large factor (eg. Racing games are far better played on the Xbox controller with its largely analogue triggers), is hardly the be all and end all of gaming critique.

Obviously, a good game is in the eye of the beholder, and the system that is right for you may not be at all right for another person. If you like online FPS's and MMORPG's, then most likely a console is a huge waste of money. But if you like racing games, beat em ups, and party games, then a console is most certainly a wise investment, and the Xbox is as worth considering as the rest of them.

Crono, hardware isn't a concern for me - a system which has the primary function of playing games, to me classifies as a games console, and to say otherwise IS mere technicality. Obviously all consoles have very similar architecture to PC's, as at low level they ARE PC's heavily streamlined for gaming, but lets not mince our words here - to concern yourself with that is to defeat the point of the console.

As for Xbox Live, how is it a rip-off? Ok, so it is ?40 a year on top of your broadband costs, and I'll admit that I've yet to get it (but I will be snapping it up once ADSL is installed next month), but it is a quality service, that is proving significantly popular. It may seem harsh to charge so much for a yearly fee when the PC charges nothing, but it is a dedicated service, and increasingly these days PC games servers (such as wireplay in the past) are also charging fees to maintain the high level of reliability, maintainability, and service, that Xbox Live seems to manage. Add on top of this the rather generous 2 month free offers that they threw out with loads of games at the end of last year, and the headset and online versions of games that come with the ?40 package, and its not really as bad as you may think.

Omega, perhaps I was somewhat harsh before, but you were stating false facts. The truth is that you obviously don't know much about the range of games available (I don't mean to insult, but you don't), as if you did, you would realise that the Xbox has a huge range of out and incoming release that aren't available anywhere else. The games you listed as being common to both the Xbox and PC, is pretty much the full list, other than perhaps Splinter Cell and KOTOR, but both of those came out on the Xbox significantly earlier than the PC. Regardless, people who purchase only big-hitters are missing out on some of the hidden gems that are always underappreciated on a console; I point to Otogi, Phantom Crash, Gun Valkyrie, Jet Set Radio Future, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Crimson Sea, etc etc...

Bah, enough defending :biggrin: I do it because I feel that sometimes consoles get a horrible stigma around them that is wholly undeserved, and while you may not look upon it as such Crono, you are essentially bashing the Xbox.

Whoa, didn't realise I'd typed so much, madness :biggrin:

Here's my question: why in the name of God is Microsoft having software made for them on a Mac?

Oh, and XBox "pwnz ur b4$$," as they say, but I'll let Reno convince you of that one.

Reno, I wasn't bashing it, I was giving my opinion. I could equally say you're praising it, but you probably aren't you're just defending its functionality and the fact that you enjoy playing it, which is fine. Most of the problems I have with that console are far different then simply the hardware. If I did own an XBox there are only about maybe 4 games I'd purchase for it from their entire line, two of which would be Orta and Ninja Gaiden, so I see no point in owning one for myself. Also, most games that are on the XBox are on the PC, and while they're there, I can use a controller and such I can also use servers for free (I don't play games that require monthly fees, but that's a whole other topic). But at no point did I saw it was wrong for you to have an XBox I just don't think it's such a nessesity for gaming as a lot of people make it out to be, but that's just me.

Cassius, Are you talking about things like Internet Exporer? or do you mean that there is software being developed for Windows under a Mac OS? If you're talking about the first one, that's because Microsoft was so wonderfully helpful as to change standards in web creation (I don't care if this is making anyone upset, because it's true). They've fudged many things in development circles and they've added a lot of implimentation into things that should not contain them (Such as the DOM). Other programs are most likely 3rd party so they're supported on both platforms. But it also doesn't hurt that Microsoft owns a good chunk of Macintosh.
And to the second possible question, they don't do that. They use Unix from time to time or Visual Studio (yuck).

P.S. Just to be absolutly clear, There ARE good games on the XBox, just not enough of my taste to justify a purchase. :smile:

Here's my question: why in the name of God is Microsoft having software made for them on a Mac?

Maybe Apple cut them a better deal. I mean, Microsoft makes Windows for the Intel x86 architecture, but I don't think they tie themselves to just that setup - they certainly have versions of Office available for MacOS, why not XBox 2 development software? I guess they're not so power-hungry "WINDOWS FOR EVERYONE" as some see it. For that speed and power needed to do XBox development, it might be cheaper for them to use Macs instead of newer AMD chips, or P4s with HyperMegaSuperUltraThreadingOfDoom.

EDIT: Mario Kart: Double Dash tournament going on tomorrow at 1:00. Wish me and my teammate luck - whoever doesn't suck too badly gets some Best Buy play money! Hopeully we can take at least 8th out of 27 teams.

Crono, obviously you have looked into the games available and if there aren't the sort of games you would want, then it makes sense not to buy one. I just don't like when people dismiss it because its Microsoft, or just because its NOT Nintendo. It should be the games and not the label that people play for, and obviously thats what you do, so I'm glad :smile: Ah, rant over!

Crono: If you had read the first post in this thread, you would know what Cassius was talking about... :wink:

Cass: The Mac's strong point is in its production capacity, using software like Photoshop or Maya (or whichever 3D software is available on it). In developing for the X-Box 2, where you can't actually develop on the system itself (unlike the PC), you can take advantage of the massive power that G5 systems offer in one of the few practical uses for a Mac system. :razz: hehe... Whole thing seems funny to me, but it does kinda make sense.

Ok, editing kinda screws up, so here's a couple other small thoughts...

I want an X-Box. I have a Gamecube already, and just found a Dreamcast and Soul Calibur on eBay (woohoo nostalgia!) but have no interest in a PS2. Even with not a whole lot of X-Box exclusive games that interest me, unless the Gamecube version of a multi-platform title is somehow superior to the others (or the PS2), the X-Box is going to look the best of the consoles when comparing any game across systems. While I would get the X-Box with the primary intent of Halo2 and Starcraft Ghost, I could get the Grand Theft Auto double pack (3 and VC) and enjoy it on a console while it looks mostly better than the PS2 version (and, of course, I have no interest in the PS2 anyway). Same goes for numerous other games, and while the GameCube is awesome and has a ton of great games, there's also a large number that only reach the PS2 and X-Box, and so I definitely would pick the X-Box versions over the PS2 versions.

Anyway. Not to bring back the old subject, but I haven't really contributed... Crono, I completely get your argument and points behind it, but that's the direction that all consoles are going. Faulting the X-Box for taking the biggest step first won't stop Sony or Nintendo from taking further steps in the same direction in the future. Consoles, when they come down to it, are dedicated gaming computers with standardized hardware and software - the user interfaces on the PS2 and Gamecube can technically be counted as an OS, no less. :razz: ooh, I rhymed.

beats the strange post editing bug into submission

From what I've heard the memory cards the Xbox2 is having range from 16mb to 47Gb and are like 20 times faster than an HD.....

And the Xbox 2 has been known about for like 2 years lol! They said in the Xbox 1 unveiling that theyd most likely make an Xbox2!

47GB?!?

I'm sorry, but that's a tad hard to swallow...

the memory on an x-box is a hard drive;
they range from 10gb to 40gb, i dont know where u got your info from myrk but i think that its wrong.

he says, "from what he has heard"

and the difference between 40, and 47 is marginal, when you consider its second hand info he is drawing from..

/ 2 cents

The difference is that a memory card uses technology similar to memory cards in Digital cameras and whatnot- those little flash cards or whatever. Having a 47gb flash memory card like that is obscene- it would (with current public accessible technology) have to have something like an array of batteries inside of it just to supply power to the RAM in it...

And there is a 40 gig HD in the XBox... Having a 47 gig HD in the XBox 2 is possible, that I don't have a problem with. But just for a mem card? Eep.

Myrk- said:
From what I've heard the memory cards the Xbox2 is having range from 16mb to 47Gb and are like 20 times faster than an HD.....

yes orph, there isnt much space between 40GB and 47Gb, But there is between 16MB and 47 GB

i think, i will bow out, i know nothing about cards, or their capacities, and eventually all i will do is look more stupid than usual..

i see way to many numbers of storage capacities, and none of them seem realistic, save the 16 meg one..

save games usually dont save the whole game, just the piece you are in.. thereby rendering the actual file size quite small.

Myrk is somewhere near the truth although it is not confirmed that you will get memory cards this size. The truth is that Microsoft has hired an Israeli company called M-Systems to make memory cards for the next Xbox system, and because of this people are assuming there will be no HDD. Here is a quote from Gamespot about it...

Last week, Microsoft <EXTLINK href="http://news.com.com/2100-1043-5164992.html">closed a deal</EXTLINK> with Israeli manufacturer M-Systems to provide flash memory discs for the successor to the Xbox, commonly referred to as the Xbox Next. Ever since, speculation has run rife that the software behemoth would eliminate hard drives from its next-generation console to increase its profit margins.

Today, a businessman involved with the Xbox Next added fuel to the rumor fire. Speaking to the Israeli business site <EXTLINK href="http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/DocView.asp?did=777124&fid=980">Globes Online</EXTLINK>, M-Systems CEO Dov Moran said that Microsoft has indeed decided not to include a hard drive in the Xbox Next's specs. "Microsoft has taken the hard disc out of its Xbox," he said. Moran went on to say, "The only thing left will be a CD," which presumably means a CD/DVD drive.

Moran indicated that in the hard drive's place would be one of his company's flash memory discs, which range from 16MB for civilian use to the whopping 47GB military variety. "At some point, when users want to save their e-mail messages, copy music, or anything like that, the only storage they?ll have is what we give them," said the CEO.

When contacted by GameSpot, Xbox Group Product Manager David Hufford said Moran was "talking way over his head." He continued, "Mr. Moran is aimlessly speculating, and we never comment on speculation. We've made no such announcements about future Xbox products and services and we don't intend to for quite a while. Until we do, we suggest people take guesswork for what it is."

However, if Moran's statements are true, the Xbox Next will likely not be backwards compatible, since it would be almost impossible for it to emulate how some games dump data onto the Xbox's hard drive.

I don't really know what to think to be honest, I'll wait for MS's official word on matters rather than believe rumours.

The user interfaces on the PS2 and Gamecube can technically be counted as an OS, no less. :razz: ooh, I rhymed.

(Yeah, I know. But XBox is still the only console which is the same architecture as your computer... To someone like me, that means a lot, now if that's good or bad, that's up to ther person)

I didn't notice Cass's earlier post, sorry.
Well, first off, Mac's, especially the G5's, have very nice hardware, They run circles around the Intel arch. But thier software isn't that great, in my opinion, it's better now then it has been for a long time.
Microsoft is probably using the GUI-Unix aspect of OSX to make many of their games, or have 3rd party make many of their games. Taking that the compilers for OSX are actually more strict then normal Unix language compilers.
Or it could be an entirly different reason. The best way to find out is read documentation on the XBox, and not many people want to do that.

To someone like me, that means a lot...

Why?

I've said it many times. I'm not going to say it again as it seems to hit an artery in this community. Also, I haven't asked you why you enjoy this product or anything else, so why should I have to explain my opinions?

Crono said:
Also, I haven't asked you why you enjoy this product or anything else, so why should I have to explain my opinions?

you know, i have noticed this about the snarkpit at large, you seem to be obligated to explain why, when you have an opinion about things.. sure it would be nice to know, but one should never be forced to do so..

it is so much more pleasant when info is volunteered, then yanked from the throats of members :sad:

if crono likes his toys a certain way, who are we to complain.. i hate consoles, and console games, if that makes me a bad person.. oh well.

People just generally like to know the reasons why someone likes something they don't. Part of our nature I guess.

Alien_Sniper said:
People just generally like to know the reasons why someone likes something they don't. Part of our nature I guess.

i agree, but have noticed that around here, the motivation is not always to acquire info, but to be abrasive.. crono for example, has repeatedly expressed his dislikes, yet the question "why" was asked once more..

could it have been with evil intent, nah, i doubt it considering the source, hornpipe just isn't like that, but the question struck me as inflammatory none the less.. tis why i waited for crono to answer 1st, just to see how it would play out.. typically, it went exactly as i anticipated it would :sad:

It's all my fault. This is why I never start topics! :biggrin:

Alien_Sniper said:
It's all my fault. This is why I never start topics! :biggrin:

tis not your fault, usually your topics have to do with some form of nudity, this one was not your usually, so it went awry.. give it time, you'll learn how to type with your clothes on yet :smile:

Type with my hands? How inefficient and boring.

I don't even want to THINK about how you make capitol letters (without using the caps-lock, of course..) Har-de-har-har.

Well if you're mentally incapable of thinking, I can send you a handy animated .gif I just happen to have lying around.

...

I tried thinking once... But then I bled so I stopped. Go ahead and send it, I'm sure I can sell it to some freaky websites for money and not give you any. Hmm... Sell it for money. Hooray for redundancy!

Alien_Sniper said:
Well if you're mentally incapable of thinking, I can send you a handy animated .gif I just happen to have lying around.

why does the idea of something horizontal frighten me so?

shudders

I'd be more afraid of the vertical.

zing

Monqui said:
I'd be more afraid of the vertical.

zing

really? and how would you go about pointing it at the keyboard, if it was up? that sounds really painful.

/me feels woozy all of a sudden..

A chair, a rope, a small badger and some tape.