Quick Question

Just a quick poll to see if an open ended, mini mapping competition was held again on the Snarkpit (just to make something small) would anybody be interested in joining?

If you have any cool ideas for a new competition or would like to make any other comments regarding a possible mapping competition in the near future or your thoughts about one, please post them here.

Note: The competition will most likely be for the Source engine or Source AND GoldSource engines.

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Aaron's Stuff

Well, I know I've already talked with you about this Aaron, but I want to let others who might be interested in it know as well.

If or when we can get organized to host another competition (And when the compilation map can get finish [it's still being worked on.... slowly...]) we'll probably do it after the switch.

Larchy is currently beta testing a newer version of the site with many new features and bug fixes and not to mention faster speeds! -That's right, we've successfully moved a 'copy' of the site over to our new host. But this copy is just for beta testing purposes as of right now. I imagine, once we move everything over and make the final switch we can begin to re-establish our members. I'm pretty sure a lot of people get fed up with the slow globat server connection speed, and I think once that gets resolved, we'll have a lot more interested members (with spare time!). So, for now, I think the competition should wait.

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Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202

You know, I've given this alot of thought whiles staring at hammer screens for hours on end. I have a couple of ideas for a more unique competition. For instance:
Editor art. Make a map that is so interesting looking in one of the editor views(top, or sides) that it could be art. The one rule is, it has to compile,(but would not necessarily have to be playable in a performance standard). You could make anything, a heart shaped map, a crest of arms, anything, the skies the limit. Using entities such as func_details and what not could add different colors to the pic. Then take a screen shot and post it with the compiled map.
Another idea:
Postcards. Find a postcard, no matter how involved or detailed the picture is, and try to re-create it in Hammer. Once again, performance would not have to be an issue, as I think theres some amazing amount of detail that could be squeezed into a map if performance issues were cast aside. The same rule would apply though. It has to compile. Send a pic of the postcard, a screenie of the map and the bsp.
Just a couple of thoughts. Trying to make it new and interesting.

"Riven" said:
I imagine, once we move everything over and make the final switch we can begin to re-establish our members.

Yeah, while the speed of this website and the minor bugs is certainly not helping activity on this website, I don't think its the main factor here. I think the problem is the quite simply the lack of active members and lack of forum activity and discussion/release of new maps.

In fact, I think it would be quite safe to say that most of the activity on this place comes from new members or inactive members asking questions in the editing boards. And most of the maps that are released on this site as of late are from new members that are just spreading their mostly "stereotypical FPSBanana" work around, they don't even participate in the discussion of their maps or reply to their pm's. Discussion in the General Banter board and map discussion boards are at the lowest I have ever seen them! I really believe that general banter and map discussion activity as well as the release of good quality maps which frankly I haven't seen in quite a while are asbosoutly essential for a sustainable community. And I am not hesitant to say this at all as I know that these "new/inactive" members who are releasing their work (and asking editing questions) will never read this, apart from maybe Flynn who recently released his Corridors map which I would not place in the bad quality maps basket.

I just thought that a mapping competition would temporarily liven things up a little bit. I know I am still very much so an active designer in the Source engine but admittedly I don't show much of my work here because I don't really get much feedback. I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm having ago at anybody, but I'm really not, I'm just expressing my concern about this community. I understand people "visit" and people are busy and such, but its a very unsettling thought to think that most of the activity here is sparked in the editing boards by people who are uninterested in being a part of the community and just want their mapping problems solved.

Anyway, it seems that we have some votes for people who are going to join if they have enough spare time so that's a good sign, seems there is potential for a competition :D. Anyway, my idea for the competition was to produce a map with a vista. There are pretty much no restrictions except that the judging on the winner would be done on how cool/detailed/creative etc etc the vista was and that designers should build their maps to highlight the vista only. Here are some ideas for possible vista maps to get those creative juices flowing:

• A barren desert landscape
• A vast combine interior space
• A futuristic city vista
• A combine-exhausted planet landscape
• A view from a space station
• A jungle vista featuring the weaving river

Anyways, that was my idea for this possible competition. Riven suggested that we take screenshots of our maps instead and we judge off them. My heart did drop a little bit as I always look forward to and get excited by adding a wide array of ambient sounds to add atmosphere and stuff but the screenshot idea certainly has many advantages and if you guys are happy to do that, I absolutely am too!

Juim: Hmm, well to be honest, not that its a bad idea, but I don't think many people would be interested in your first idea. As for your second idea, I can see that working.

But anyway, what do you guys think of the vista(screenshots?) idea and Juims two ideas? If you have any other suggestions or want express your feelings about a possible mapping comp or anything else related, please do so! And don't forget to vote in the poll even if your not interested in participating in the competition!

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Aaron's Stuff

re: Switching over to the new site - just waiting on Lep for domain transfer, bit difficult to make communications as he like me (moreso, I imagine) is deep into postgrad work.

I'll hit him up on the weekend when I shall be free from historical/socialogical comparisons of gender study.

hehe Aaron i think you sound a wee bit paranoid there. Myself I am actually working on a map, I would like to post progress shots, but the contest it's for restricts that. I may still withdraw it from that endeavor as i appreciate the "omnipotence" of the pit members input. But nonetheless I find that,a) because I am so damn slow at the whole process and it burns so many hours and b) I'm getting sick of the game it's for I feel like putting the whole thing down for awhile.

So for me I think a competition would be a refreshing change, but my vote goes in the "time" category, say 6-8 weeks from now or something.

yes, if you wait for the school year to end

then I can come play and see if I still know my way around the hammer

bump

-eek, it looks like the poll is slightly broken!

-An another note, is there anyone interested in starting a competition soon? Yes, the compilation map is still in development, but I'm not going to let that stop me from sponsoring one! -Anyone want to offer some more ideas as to what they may be wanting for the Summer? -Or second any of the ideas posted already?

(I like aaron's Vistas idea )

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Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202

Riven said:
bump

-eek, it looks like the poll is slightly broken!

-An another note, is there anyone interested in starting a competition soon? Yes, the compilation map is still in development, but I'm not going to let that stop me from sponsoring one! -Anyone want to offer some more ideas as to what they may be wanting for the Summer? -Or second any of the ideas posted already?

(I like aaron's Vistas idea )

That was my idea!!

A comp should coincide with the grand reopening of the pit.

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Reality has become a commodity.

I'd love to have another mapping competition, that would be so awesome, but at the moment I'm crunching hard on my platform game multimedia assignment for school which is due in roughly 1.5 months, that is taking up all my free otherwise level design time.

If we go ahead with the "make a vista idea" than I already have a solid idea but I really hope we allow custom content because I can think of a few props or at least textures I'm going to have to make.

And the poll has indeed broken, maybe the poll expired and there is some bug that makes it display incorrectly after the expiry date. Why do we have to have a time limitation on a poll though, what if we don't want a time limitation?

"RedWood" said:
That was my idea!!

Huh?

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Aaron's Stuff

Only two polls have I found that were actually broken. I think it had to do with the switch.

Well, sorry for crediting the wrong person RedWood I was simply looking through the posts of this particular thread.

RedWood said:
A comp should coincide with the grand reopening of the pit.

I totally agree. Did we want to make this a full-blown competition, or maybe a mini-competition of sorts, like we did a couple of times before? -Perhaps something technical. Or, purely aesthetic?

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Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202

Riven said:
Well, sorry for crediting the wrong person RedWood I was simply looking through the posts of this particular thread.

It's cool,i was only kidding.

I'd like to see a full comp. Most people should have the time seeing how school is out for most people. But i would like to see a modest size limit.

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Reality has become a commodity.

So then I take it 3 of us are up for a full blown playable map that showcases a vista of some sort? -or do we just want a map that someone can walk around in (doesn't have to be a single player story or anything, just a vista with a setting) -And it doesn't have to be a working multiplayer map either.

-Aaron, do you just want a vista scape? -meaning, within the realm of that idea, it doesn't have to be part of a sp story, or mp map, just something to look at?

-If that's the case, I'm interested.

@RedWood, by definition A vista is: "A distant view or prospect" -so by size limitations, we're talking about the max here. -Right? I mean, this would be a pretty big competition at least on time and scale-wise?

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Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202

Well, I imagined it to be some sort of level (singleplayer or multiplayer, it doesn't matter) that is centred around a vista of any sort, no restrictions there.

You can make the level as large as you want but it would be wise just to make something small and focus on the vista, it's pretty open ended I guess. That's it really, nothing else matters. Toss in a story if you like, at least like a bit of context is always good. But just ideally a vista as the main feature and a bit of space around it to compliment the vista, people should focus on ambiance, mood, detail, aesthetics and whatnot.

And my definition of a vista is a space of any sort, usually large and open that players can't walk amongst, but can see and may interest players and distract them during gameplay. For example, at the start of Half-Life 2 Episode 2, that large open space where you can see the destroyed Citadel, that's a vista, and the scene where you can see the bridge with combine walking along it in the distance a bit further in the game, that's also a vista.

@ haymaker: Ahh hehehe, you got me.

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Aaron's Stuff

Ok, then I understand ya. Basically, a small walkable area, and then a huge vista to look at. It doesn't matter how you spawn-in or that the space should end, The player quits the map when they feel like it. There's no objective or obstacle in the way. The only goal is to be able to look out at a vista. -gotcha.

Any other suggestions? When do we want to look at doing this?

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Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202

I'd be down for something small, not too time intensive.

I like the idea of creating something from a postcard or a picture.

The vista idea doesn't get me too jazzed up, but I'd be down.

Ah, so you're thinking about re-creating something from a real picture, or say a postcard image? (which could be an artist's painting or something). -What if (and this is just me talking on the whim) we found a postcard image (per se) that was itself an image of a vista of some sort and the competition was to re-create that vista-(image)?

[EDIT]: As far as time goes, (when we plan on getting this started) I wouldn't be able to join anything for another week (until I can re-build my work comp).

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Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202

That sounds cool. If everyone is attempting to do the same image the best way possible, every mistake will be scrutinized. Also, it would be neat to see how different people attack the same problems.

Well to be honest, the idea of creating a vista from my own imagination and me having total control over it is more interesting to me but I guess I'm up for creating one from a photograph. The deadline for my flash game has been extended to include my 2 week winter holiday so I guess I can squeeze in a little something.

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Aaron's Stuff

[CENTER][size=4]=================UPDATE=================

[/size][/CENTER]

Ok, So in the midst of me starting up classes again, and also working on the compilation map, my Snarky senses are telling me that you guys are rearin' for a new competition!

The last post in this thread was made in June, It is now September 2nd. If say we started a new competition near the end of this month, and it lasted for however long we agree upon, would we have any takers? Are any of you guys interested and available to participate in a competition (mini, or full) starting near the end of this month?

Please respond yes or no, and state how long you would want it to last (doesn't matter what kind of competition it might be).

=================THE IDEAS THUS FAR:=================
Aaron suggested a Vista-scape

aaron_da_killa said:
my idea for the competition was to produce a map with a vista. There are pretty much no restrictions except that the judging on the winner would be done on how cool/detailed/creative etc etc the vista was and that designers should build their maps to highlight the vista only. Here are some ideas for possible vista maps to get those creative juices flowing:

• A barren desert landscape
• A vast combine interior space
• A futuristic city vista
• A combine-exhausted planet landscape
• A view from a space station
• A jungle vista featuring the weaving river

And Juim suggested Map from Postcards/Images

Juim said:
Juim: Postcards. Find a postcard, no matter how involved or detailed the picture is, and try to re-create it in Hammer. Once again, performance would not have to be an issue, as I think theres some amazing amount of detail that could be squeezed into a map if performance issues were cast aside. The same rule would apply though. It has to compile. Send a pic of the postcard, a screenie of the map and the bsp.

Any more ideas? -I'm up for either TBH.

Also: The prize will definitely include a full digital copy of L4D for the PC (courtesy of Finger). AND some cash money above $50! (Might be able to work out secondary prizes)

The responses in this thread over the next couple of weeks will be the ultimate deciding factor whether we have a competition soon or not! -So....

[CENTER]SPEAK UP!

[/CENTER]

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Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202

I'd join but I have exams towards the end of October and the beginning of November so I'd like to have my entry done before then.

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Aaron's Stuff

Sure I'd give it a try.

I'd prefer this to be very restricted, but short.

I agree - I think the comp should be very short ( a couple of weeks?).

I vote for the vista challenge - it seems very focused, creative, and wouldn't really take that much work since you are literally building a 'room with a view'. Who knows, since we are actually offering some Booty, we may get more entries.

I like the vista challenge, too, but would restrict it even more... to a special kind of vista (like the "swamp scene" TF2 competition advertised on the front page).

I can only speak for myself, but searching for a scenery often takes as much time as actually building it for me. Some "hook" would be nice. I think over at interlopers, they, for example, give out a small set of basic brushwork and you have to build a vista around it.

I think I'd prefer the vista challenge too.

And yeah, a few weeks (2-4 weeks) sounds good to me. If we where to go ahead with this idea, would we be allowed to use custom content?

"Finger" said:
Who knows, since we are actually offering some Booty, we may get more entries.

I hope so, the more participants the better!

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Aaron's Stuff

I think it might be good to narrow it to one or two themes also, and I'm betting we could supply some reference images as a starting point for people (they wouldn't have to use them, and it's not about copying an image, but rather emulating a theme).

One thing that might be fun, is to pick one theme that combines two contrasting aspects.

For example, I think it would be cool to build a vista with the theme Industrial vs Natural. This lends itself to the halflife 'look', which is a good start for people and wouldn't require people to make alot of textures and models. Another example would be Ancient vs Futuristic. With these two, I can already picture a scene of ramshackled industrial huts, taken over by growth on a rocky cliff_side, over looking a river or a futuristing combine like structure built upon the fallen stone of old Mayan ruins.

Sounds cool to me

I was camping up howe sound earlier this summer, was thinking ( under the influence ) that it would be neat to nail the vibe of the place in a map...so that's a vista I guess

Im pretty tight for time now that Ive picked up a cover band gig with a couple shows coming up but I might try this

Cool! -Great to be hearing from you guys! I too like that idea Finger presented about limiting or rather "focusing" themes. And with vistas, it will be more about looks rather than gameplay, so optimization would not be a focus, and neither would story.

To clarify though, we would only present one theme right? (I don't know how it might judge with two themes available for mappers to pull from, but I thought maybe this was what you were suggesting).

Example pictures will definitely be a plus. I can see it now: the spoiler tag used to present an entire gallery of example images to help give you inspiration.

Ideas for themes anyone? Ideally, we want themes that could possibly be supported by the preexisting texture and model pallet already provided in our game of choice (?) to map in.

I'll try and think up some interesting themes later.

BTW, if you guys have any other ideas for a competition instead of Vistas, feel free to post 'em!

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Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202

Ancient vs Futuristic <- I like that one a lot!

I think what Finger meant by "two themes" was "Make a scene that has a strong contrast between something ancient and something futuristic".

I would also settle for one engine, since it's a little strange to compare a Goldsource vista to a Source one. In other words, wouldn't it make sense to make it Source-only? Since there is no gameplay, though, I don't know whether it's necessary to limit it to a certain game...

Yay for Ancient vs Futuristic.

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Reality has become a commodity.

If anyone wants a good site to look for inspirational pictures; check out www.pbase.com

Here - I already searched for 'ruins' for you: http://search.pbase.com/search?q=ruins&b=Search+Photos&c=sp

Yeah, ancient vs futuristic could work well. I already have an idea.

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Aaron's Stuff

Yea, I knew what he meant by "vs." it's just that he listed two different sets of "vs." themes. But now I realize he (like myself) intend to use one contrast theme (____ vs. ____)

I agree it should be limited to the Source Engine; and since it's not about the gameplay, nor the optimization then the visuals can come from any Source engine game. And I suppose We shouldn't rely on voters being able to download and play the maps, so I guess that means we'll have to go off the images? -That's getting a little too Interloper-ish for my tastes.

BUT If we allow it for any source game, there might be a lot of folks alienated from being able to play some of the entries come voting time, and thereby creating bias in the judgment calls. Therefore I propose a new hybrid judging system to compensate for that possible bias, whereby we can bring back the "judges' panel" and still have voting by members. The judges' panel would have a certain weight behind it in terms of points that can be earned for an entry and then the community votes could be tallied and added to it. But maybe that's getting too complicated; what do you guys think?

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Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202

Should we confined ourselves to see through a viewcontrole entity or should we let people run around a bit? I vote for the viewcontrole. it should lighten the workload immensely and the detail on what we can see will be much higher.

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Reality has become a commodity.

RedWood said:
Should we confined ourselves to see through a viewcontrole entity or should we let people run around a bit? I vote for the viewcontrole. it should lighten the workload immensely and the detail on what we can see will be much higher.

Ah, I don't know about that. I think I'd rather just let players roam freely and do what they wish. It'd probably be quicker for me to just do the whole vista with no shortcuts than try and set up a little cut scene.

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Aaron's Stuff

Here is something that might inspire you - Coventry Cathedral in the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coventry_cathedral

The old cathedral (14/15th century) was left as a shell after Coventry was bombed during the Second World War. When it came around to rebuilding, it was decided to keep the largely intact shell of the old cathedral and unify it with a new building. I personally am not a fan of the building they added but I admire the vision behind it - and it seems to personify an Ancient/Modern collaboration.

Thought you might like it as a bit o' inspiration.

aaron_da_killa said:

RedWood said:
Should we confined ourselves to see through a viewcontrole entity or should we let people run around a bit? I vote for the viewcontrole. it should lighten the workload immensely and the detail on what we can see will be much higher.

Ah, I don't know about that. I think I'd rather just let players roam freely and do what they wish. It'd probably be quicker for me to just do the whole vista with no shortcuts than try and set up a little cut scene.

I wouldn't have the viewcontrol move. One point of view only. It would be like a postcard with a little movement in the back round. Can you imagine how much work you could get done if you only had to work for one point of view. Should really get some impressively detailed views.

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Reality has become a commodity.

RedWood said:
[quote=aaron_da_killa][quote=RedWood]Should we confined ourselves to see through a viewcontrole entity or should we let people run around a bit? I vote for the viewcontrole. it should lighten the workload immensely and the detail on what we can see will be much higher. [/quote]

Ah, I don't know about that. I think I'd rather just let players roam freely and do what they wish. It'd probably be quicker for me to just do the whole vista with no shortcuts than try and set up a little cut scene.

I wouldn't have the viewcontrol move. One point of view only. It would be like a postcard with a little movement in the back round. Can you imagine how much work you could get done if you only had to work for one point of view. Should really get some impressively detailed views.[/quote] We could still require the bsp file to be included with the entry, just to see that there is no... uhm "cheating" going on. Not that we're that big and wild of a community for these kinds of precautions to be necessary, but if nothing else, I'd be curious how other people's scenes were put together.

reaper47 said:
We could still require the bsp file to be included with the entry, just to see that there is no... uhm "cheating" going on. Not that we're that big and wild of a community for these kinds of precautions to be necessary, but if nothing else, I'd be curious how other people's scenes were put together.

Right, mine will probably have a few npc's anyways so you would have to load up some engine. I'd probably do it in EP2.

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Reality has become a commodity.

One thing I didn't like about Interlopers' "map battles" was that they weren't really 'map' battles. Posting screenshots for entries into a Map battle is no more a map battle than posting screenshots for a short film competition. Maps are not just visuals, even if a competition's focus for them is such. Maps in the context of level design are by definition: models. So posting a screenshot or limiting a loaded bsp to a single view crushes any viability at calling it a map. Even if there are moving parts in the scene. Therefore, If you wanted to add a particular view_controller to your map to encourage players to look through it, that would be fine, but to limit it ONLY to that view for the entire duration of the map would IMO degrade that map to nothing more than a video or screenshot. In other words, I think we should have a rule that states: Players must have full motion control of their character in the submitted entries.

You could possibly though only allow for one window of viewing and thereby still achieve that effect you were going for but still make it easier to map for like you wanted.

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Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202

Agreed - I like the 'option' of using a view controller, but wouldn't want to create a moving picture.

Perhaps we should just allow people to make their entries however they like regarding how the player interacts with it.

If people want to make it so the player is restricted to a view point that's ok and if people want to allow the player to freely roam the map, that's ok too I reckon.

So I'm for having the viewpoint as an 'option'.

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Aaron's Stuff

okie dokie then. I have no problem with that.

[EDIT]: I'm also in favor of the futuristic vs. ancient "build a vista" idea. However I'll leave this thread open to suggestions until the end of the week, and might begin it this weekend!

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Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202

Well, if it's confirmations you want to hear, Riven: Yes, I'm in!

Explain the Vista thing... Like a skybox? Or a map that you can not explore but only see off in the distance?

Basically I vista is just a nice view that the player can see but not get too.

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Aaron's Stuff

I'm still writing up the technical stuff (still drafting it out) but basically, in your map the player will be limited to the bounds no bigger than X (somewhat small) enclosed or not, but playable space should be cut off somehow (invisible walls, convenient debris). Then there needs to be a view of some sort to look out upon. The view needs to be separate from the playable space; meaning, (like Aaron said), the player should not be able to reach that view. However you want to pull that off (i.e. 3D skybox, custom textures, a mix of whatever, anything goes as long as it can be run in real time within the Source game of your choice).

Other things to think about: Your playable space itself (whatever it may be) may be allowed to move (example: a gondola moving down a mountain side, or a vehicle moving through a city block). You might get a better chance of winning if you have animated scenes rather than just static scenes. Remember A vista scene in a game should incorporate sounds too!

Almost done with the draft; I might have something ready by the end of this week!

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Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202

Ah! I'm so excited to start this. Can we start this competition asap?

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Aaron's Stuff

Riven said:
I'm still writing up the technical stuff (still drafting it out) but basically, in your map the player will be limited to the bounds no bigger than X (somewhat small) enclosed or not, but playable space should be cut off somehow (invisible walls, convenient debris). Then there needs to be a view of some sort to look out upon. The view needs to be separate from the playable space; meaning, (like Aaron said), the player should not be able to reach that view. However you want to pull that off (i.e. 3D skybox, custom textures, a mix of whatever, anything goes as long as it can be run in real time within the Source game of your choice).

... Do a vista of the given theme in Source, it will be judged on looks, you have to provide the BSP, deadline is in x weeks. Why so complicated?

I may try at this one..