I don't believe in God

But I find the idea of SOME being saved with Christianity better than the atheist idea that nobody gets to go anywhere.

Seems like a greedy attitude, you get to go to heaven at the expense of a few billion other people's eternal torment.

Ceasing to exist would be the ultimate torment: in that last moment before you die when you KNOW you will no longer exist. I bet it lasts for eternity.

I'm not sure such a moment could exist, most atheists admit that you can't know what happens after death. Does that moment before you fall into a deep sleep last for an eternity? Seems like turning your brain off then would be similar to turning your brain off for the final time...

beguiledfoil said:
Seems like a greedy attitude, you get to go to heaven at the expense of a few billion other people's eternal torment.

"At the expense of?" It's not as if the saved are using others as stepping-stones...

That's like if EVERYONE had a terminal disease that could cured by taking a pill. Only a few people elect to take the salvation pill because most don't beleive that it will work. The ones who chose to take the pill that will save thier lives are not taking it at the expense of those who don't, they are taking despite the fact that most others are not taking it.

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

I'm quite content without religion. TBH, I don't want to end up like Nickelplate yelling REPENT TO BE SAVED on internet chatrooms. When I'm rotting in the ground, and Nickels rotting next to me, I'll laugh that he screwed his life up with religion and he still rots in the ground.

French Toast said:
I'm quite content without religion. TBH, I don't want to end up like Nickelplate yelling REPENT TO BE SAVED on internet chatrooms. When I'm rotting in the ground, and Nickels rotting next to me, I'll laugh that he screwed his life up with religion and he still rots in the ground.

This is just unnecessary - and, to boot, neither of those things are true about Nickel.

Cassius said:
This is just unnecessary - and, to boot, neither of those things are true about Nickel.

It certainly is untrue, but it is a justified opinion based on all things past and present since his arrival.

I do not hate Nickel, not do I dislike him any but... He has a personality that attracts the trouble he is always involved in.

I look forward to his mellowing with age. In spite of the fact that he has an adversity to such a future event I know that it will eventually occur.

He is not the first, nor the last young adult who cannot be quiet when tact dictates you must do so.

I share Frenchy's current position BUT, I know that unless we both die soon, there is plenty of time for restitution.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

I'm quite content without religion. TBH, I don't want to end up like Nickelplate yelling REPENT TO BE SAVED on internet chatrooms. When I'm rotting in the ground, and Nickels rotting next to me, I'll laugh that he screwed his life up with religion and he still rots in the ground.

screwed his life up? If he is wrong he and you will never know, if he is right, he and you will never know.

He can live a happy life through way of religion, just like I can live a happy life through way of self serving virtue.

Its all different, yet ultimately the same.

The major difference is, non-believer tend to be less offensive where personal choice is concerned.

Believers tend to be so self absorbed that their very presence is an affront to many. Sometimes anyway.

I had an Aunt that I had to force to be less religious within my home. I literally had to tell her "NO BIBLE THUMPING OR YOU CANNOT COME IN!"

She acquiesced. My home is my castle and my request was not untowardly harsh. Since I knew her history and she knew that it was offensive to some there was no problems.

We had a very pleasant visit and many subsequent ones since. But, at least in my home she knows to mind her manners.

You need to consider Doc, Frenchy is no less wrong for his belief system, even if it is a harsh one to the ones its expressed against.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Orpheus said:
He has a personality that attracts the trouble he is always involved in.

Oh sweet, sweet irony

---

[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

This is why I avoided religion debate - although inadvertently
triggered a wayward discussion. When people start to openly mock people
for having faith, ignorance and prejudice are rearing their ugly heads
and we have lowered ourself beyond our real ability as intelligent and
tolerant people.

Certain people in this thread need to think a little harder before they
ridicule the beliefs of another, it only shows them up to be the
real idiot in the situation,

Nickelplate said:
Wil5on. I think I do understand what you're saying. That, Everything we do is determined by what came before. And since we cannot control what came before, our lives are dictated by the choices of others and not by our own free will. and that we only make decisions based on previous experiences of ourselves and others, thus we do not have free will. I don't beleive that though.

Well, since this applies to everyone and everything, the "decisions of others" are also based on chains of cause and effect.

Nickelplate said:
Yeah, it seems unfair.

[list]

[*] Yes, they are condemned to eternal torment. But I find the idea of SOME being saved with Christianity better than the atheist idea that nobody gets to go anywhere. Ceasing to exist would be the ultimate torment: in that last moment before you die when you KNOW you will no longer exist. I bet it lasts for eternity.
[*] If I'm wrong and all of you people are right, then I've been an exceptionally good person and I'm going to heaven anyway.
[*] as for archaelogical evidence: There is no event for which all evidence survives. Not to mention the fact that for thousands of years all monotheistic followers were prohibited from making any images of thier God. This could explain a lack of artifacts, since none were made.

[/list]

1. I think the atheist idea of nothing, no pain, no pleasure, not existing, better than the idea of my fate being arbitrarily determined by which religion I choose to follow.
2. I didnt mean "if we are all right", I mean what if you were supposed to follow Mohammed (for example) instead? Theres no way of knowing christianity is the "right" religion.
3. You have a point there, graven idols and all that. Then again, the Bible (,Torah,Koran) puts creation somewhere between 3000 and 5000BC, and there is definite evidence of people living all over the world well before that.

---

"If you talk at all during this lesson, you have detention. Do you understand?"

• My yr11 Economics teacher

That's like if EVERYONE had a terminal disease that could cured by taking a pill. Only a few people elect to take the salvation pill because most don't beleive that it will work. The ones who chose to take the pill that will save thier lives are not taking it at the expense of those who don't, they are taking despite the fact that most others are not taking it

You make a choice regarding your belief system: you could choose to believe that those who live a good life are granted salvation, but instead you choose that only those who live a good life and worship god are granted salvation. Choosing the latter option seems selfish, considering many people are never presented with the idea of your god.

That is what I meant, I should have been clearer.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting ReNo</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Orpheus</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>He has a personality that attracts the trouble he is always involved in.</DIV></DIV>

Oh sweet, sweet irony

</DIV></DIV>

Irony or not, I never claimed to be anything I'm not... Unlike some of us. :razz:

Besides, I really need to ask. Does it retract from the situation any if the comment is of ironical origins?

and.. I agree totally. BOTH sides need to consider that belief works for everyone!

I only re-entered this topic because I felt that Frenchy was being... Not allowed to believe too. I do not totally share his views, but I hold them in no less/more contempt than anyone else's.

[edit] /me steps out again since I have nothing to add relevant to the topic.. I do however feel justified for playing referee. [/edit]

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

But I find the idea of SOME being saved with Christianity better than the atheist idea that nobody gets to go anywhere.

Seems like a greedy attitude, you get to go to heaven at the expense of a few billion other people's eternal torment.

It's terribly unfair and elitist. Billions (!) of people go to hell. That makes hell - globally - the most important aspect of Christianity and the center point of missionary work. You hire new followers by screaming: "You're all going to HELL!"

And then blackmail them with a possible solution that implies blind trust.

Nickelplate said:
What I've been telling the guy at work, being INFLUENCED and being DICTATED are different things. Sure we cannot choose the situations we are put in many times, but that doesn't mean our free will has been encroached upon.

And yes, I can choose not to believe. Anyone can block anything out of thier mind if they want to bad enough.

Your brain just collects information which influences your thinking. The "free will" part that sorts these informations is the part of the brain we're born with. In other words our parent's genetical influence. We're nothing but the product of influence. We're helpless, too.

As for your last paragraph, this is where the free will of others comes into play. Because long ago, the ancestors of current people of India chose the sin of Idolatry, thier children and children's children and so on are raised with it. They are affected negatively by the choices of others.

You condemn the majority of earth's population to eternal punishment... That's... unbelievable. It's one giant contradiciton.

God is good and forgiving. He sends everyone to hell who never heared about him. That's evil, selfish. Blind revenge in its purest form.

French Toast said:
I'm quite content without religion. TBH, I don't want to end up like Nickelplate yelling REPENT TO BE SAVED on internet chatrooms. When I'm rotting in the ground, and Nickels rotting next to me, I'll laugh that he screwed his life up with religion and he still rots in the ground.

Man, that's not nice. First, I've never even said "repent and be saved!" to anyone even in real life. Second, how is my life screwed up by trying not to negatively affect others and myself. One would think that hurting onesself and others would constitute "screwed up" Like alcoholics and wife beaters.

DrGlass said:
screwed his life up? If he is wrong he and you will never know, if he is right, he and you will never know.

Lol, If I'm right, we'll both definitely know... :biggrin:

reaper47 said:
It's terribly unfair and elitist. Billions (!) of people go to hell. That makes hell - globally - the most important aspect of Christianity and the center point of missionary work. You hire new followers by screaming: "You're all going to HELL!"

And then blackmail them with a possible solution that implies blind trust.

We don't "hire followers" by scaring them with hell, we tell them about jesus and how he loves them. They make thier own choices.

and what's the blackmail?

reaper47 said:
Your brain just collects information which influences your thinking. The "free will" part that sorts these informations is the part of the brain we're born with. In other words our parent's genetical influence. We're nothing but the product of influence. We're helpless, too.

Sure, the information we live with is dictated by what is in the past, but the decisions we make based on it are what WE choose to do.

reaper said:
You condemn the majority of earth's population to eternal punishment... That's... unbelievable. It's one giant contradiciton.

God is good and forgiving. He sends everyone to hell who never heared about him. That's evil, selfish. Blind revenge in its purest form.

No, reaper. I don't condemn anyone... It's not my place to judge or condemn anyone. You're seeing it from the wrong side. Nobody GETS condemned, we are all that way to START with. It's just that SOME people get a pardon, because someone else (jesus) took the blame.

I thought of a scenario that is like Christianity:

Existence is like a luxury ship that has into an Iceberg because all the people on the boat got drunk. The survivors floating in the freezing water are the people of the world. The survivors have a limited time to live before they freeze to death, but shortly a rescue crew comes along and offers them the chance to get out of the freezing water which would spell thier doom. All the survivors have to do is admit that they made a wrong decision in getting drunk and driving a boat and stop drinking so that they can board the lifeboat, and they are free to live long lives on land which is heavenly compared to freezing salt water.
Some of the survivors refuse because they say they made no wrong choice. Some refuse because they believe that another means of salvation is coming that may not require them to admit thier bad judgement. Some survivors are behind a piece of flotsam and cannot be seen by the rescuers.
since everyone is looking for rescue in one fashion or another, the Obscured Survivors grab on to the piece of flotsam to get out of the water.

Is is "revenge and evil" on the part of the rescuers when some refuse thier help?

• The drinking symbolizes the sin we all commit. They got drunk and put all the others at risk.
• The rescue team symbolizes God's Salvation.
• The admission of guilt and the effort to stop the sin parallels the Christian idea of "repentance." Of course, it follows logically that the people who DO repent honestly beleive that this is thier only route to salvation, otherwise they'd just wait for the next lifeboat that allows them to keep drinking the delicious liquor. Anyway, this beleif that it is the only way parallels Christian faith.
• The survivors who refuse are the ones who will most definitely die a cold death and sink to the bottom, because no other rescue is afforded them.
• The survivors behind the flotsam who cannot hear the rescuers symbolize the people of the world who have never heard of the chance of the redemption offered by God. The bible never says anything about those people's fate for sure. Perhaps the piece of flotsam will float them all to land and the very thing that obscured them will be thier salvation, or perhaps it will sink along with all of them. I honestly don't KNOW for sure. What I DO know for sure is that It's better to be safe than sorry, So i choose to assume that they ARE bound for hell (even though that kinda stinks). The bible does say that people who hear and reject it are going to hell, but never says much about people who don't hear.

Anyway, the rescuers are not getting REVENGE on anyone they don't save. They are just helping those which they DO save.

If i say "Hello, have you heard of Jesus?" and they say "no." should I say tell them about him, or just say "oh, okay, that's cool, don't let anyone tell you!"

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Ok, think about it this way.

Let's say you broke the law, but didn't know that law existed. Would you not still be charged with the crime? Ignorance is not an excuse.

God wanted man to follow a set of rules, a "law." Sin is disobeying this law, and because God is just, he will charge you for each one. Everyone is guilty of disobeying his law, we all deserve to burn in hell.

But, this is why Jesus came and died. He took responsibility for all the sins, of those who choose to believe in him.

---

Dark_Kilauea
DVS Administration
http://www.dvstudio-production.com/

We don't "hire followers" by scaring them with hell, we tell them about jesus and how he loves them. They make thier own choices.

I don't think you want to open the can of worms that is the ethics of missionary work, it's hard to justify s**tting all over other's culture and belief system...

Sure, the information we live with is dictated by what is in the past, but the decisions we make based on it are what WE choose to do.

Man, I'm not sure you could miss his point any more if you tried (well, I guess you are trying...): Your brain constructs itself based on the laws of physics (as described generally by biology and chemistry) into an intricate organic computer. It has inputs, processing capability, and outputs. All of these are still governed by the laws of physics. You see a bird, your eyes send an electrical signal to your brain, it does a variety of things with the signal (create an image, interpert the image, send ouputs), this is what you refer to as the "choosing" that we do. According to his theories there is no broach in the laws of physics whereby the metaphysical "we" "chooses" amongs one of several possible decisions: the laws of physics dictate that there can be only one decision, and that is the one that is "made."

Scientifically it is difficult to justify the possibility of free will (and proving it's existence would probably result in something more complicated than a unified field theory). It could be done, but I doubt you have the passion to ponder such theories (no doubt another phenomona that your personal philosophies do not encourage the questioning of)...

Existence is like a luxury ship...

Interesting analogy, and in a way it addresses his point. Still, the fact that this is the "truth" that you have chosen seems selfish to me. In your mind you force all of humanity on to this ship of doom, condemning most of them. Why would you not seak a philosophy which would allow all those who are good the chance at heaven? It seems like that would be the compasionate choice. It seems to me that a compasionate person would not be able to live with the other option... Religion is a choice, after all, why not choose a belief system which is just as stringant morally, but does not damn those who are (not by their own choosing, obviously) ignorant?

Let's say you broke the law, but didn't know that law existed.

This, on the other hand, is a terrible analogy. If I sit here at my desk making up a bunch of laws and then show up at your house tomorrow and hit you in the face while telling you that "You broke several of my laws and the punishment is a hit in the face!" you would hate me. Furthermore, it would be difficult to justify my action as moral. Why would God do that to humanity?

Wilful ignorance is one thing, but being ignorant due to a lack of effort by the lawmakers (essentially enforcing secret laws) is no way to justify punishment...

<DIV class=quotetext>Let's say you broke the law, but didn't know that law existed.</DIV>
Ludicrous. I've heard legitimate reconciliations on the problem of whether or not God saves non-Christians - this is not one of them.

Both your analogy and Nickel's assume the direct awareness, on the part of each and every person throughout the world and throughout time, of Jesus' existence and imperative that we turn to him for eternal salvation. If that were the case, every noble man who died before the birth of Christ is now and will forever be burning in perpetual torment.

Cassius: I am not assuming that everyone has knowledge of Jesus, only that everyone has a want for soemthing spiritual. Also, people before Jesus were saved by animal and grain sacrifices, that is what JEsus took the place of, ergo, we do not kill sheep for God anymore.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting beguiledfoil</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
Man, I'm not sure you could miss his point any more if you tried (well, I guess you are trying...): Your brain constructs itself based on the laws of physics (as described generally by biology and chemistry) into an intricate organic computer. It has inputs, processing capability, and outputs. All of these are still governed by the laws of physics. You see a bird, your eyes send an electrical signal to your brain, it does a variety of things with the signal (create an image, interpert the image, send ouputs), this is what you refer to as the "choosing" that we do. According to his theories there is no broach in the laws of physics whereby the metaphysical "we" "chooses" amongs one of several possible decisions: the laws of physics dictate that there can be only one decision, and that is the one that is "made."

Scientifically it is difficult to justify the possibility of free will (and proving it's existence would probably result in something more complicated than a unified field theory). It could be done, but I doubt you have the passion to ponder such theories (no doubt another phenomona that your personal philosophies do not encourage the questioning of)... </DIV></DIV>

My personal philosophies do not "not encourage the pondering" of anything. Why do you insist on lumping me with the extremists who answer everything with "because God Said So"?? You KNOW I'm not like that, you KNOW that everything I've explained is logical and fits with your science. Don't be hatin'.

And I do understand what this other theory is, but what I'm saying is that "No, you can't control whether you SEE the bird, but you CAN control whether you shoot it or just keep looking at it."

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting beguiledfoil</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>

Interesting analogy, and in a way it addresses his point. Still, the fact that this is the "truth" that you have chosen seems selfish to me. In your mind you force all of humanity on to this ship of doom, condemning most of them. Why would you not seak a philosophy which would allow all those who are good the chance at heaven? It seems like that would be the compasionate choice. It seems to me that a compasionate person would not be able to live with the other option... Religion is a choice, after all, why not choose a belief system which is just as stringant morally, but does not damn those who are (not by their own choosing, obviously) ignorant?
</DIV></DIV>

Becuase no matter how compassionate a person is, they cannot choose what is the truth and what is not. And like i said, i don't KNOW if unwillfully ignorant people go to hell or not. The bible doesn't really address that, but it does say that all knowledge belongs to God, but some will always be hidden from men. Maybe that's one of the things it's talking about.

And something that really bothers me about some of you guys' replies about the fairness of it all. Name one other thing in life that gives everyone a free ride. Name a place where you can get something that doesn't cost anyone anything. What else in life is "fair?" And what do you consider "fair?"

Think about it logically:

it is impossible to live without affecting others negatively in SOME way = TRUE

Everyone who is alive, lives = TRUE

Affecting others negatively defines sin = TRUE

The price for sin is going to hell = TRUE

Therefore: Everyone alive has affected another entity negatively, and has therefore sinned, thus all are bound for hell.

See, no one starts out with a clean slate, it takes work on thier part to get it that way. The work it takes is repentance. and if someone does repent, that is a sign of thier faith that another method of salvation is not in existence.

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

My personal philosophies do not "not encourage the pondering" of anything.

Sorry to come off as so harsh, but you've dodged questions regarding the origin of god and a multitude of other things that I and others have brought up. Monotheistic philosophies, generally, cut out a lot of interesting ideas, thats all I meant to imply..

Why do you insist on lumping me with the extremists who answer everything with "because God Said So"?

Well, when asekd the question "Why is there something, instead of nothing?" which I like to think of as the core question regarding existence you reply, because God [made] it so :smile:

Becuase no matter how compassionate a person is, they cannot choose what is the truth and what is not. And like i said, i don't KNOW if unwillfully ignorant people go to hell or not.

You also don't KNOW that the Bible is "the gospel truth" (sorry, feeling a bit ironic). My point was that, just as you admitted earlier in the thread, this stuff ultimately boils down to a choice (you said you could choose not to belief in God, if you wanted) and that a more empathetic person would choose another belief system, simply because they could not live in a world in which so many were outright damned, not for a choice they made, but due to circumstances!

What else in life is "fair?" And what do you consider "fair?"

So, life isn't fair and the afterlife can't be either? God, the omnipotent being, embraces this unfairness? This is the kind of thought people always justify with that "God works in mysterious ways" non sequitor...

Think about it logically:

it is impossible to live without affecting others negatively in SOME way = TRUE

Everyone who is alive, lives = TRUE

Affecting others negatively defines sin = TRUE

The price for sin is going to hell = TRUE

Many people who live do good things, and leave the world having left a positive impact, not all of them are Christian = TRUE

My gripe isn't with any of those assertions, only that many people. It's possible that the only sin a person has committed would be your idea of original sin (perhaps the Buddha?) and yet they could go to hell, for not believing in God? That is bunk.

I understand the theory, that every human has committed sin and that the only way to get into heaven is allow jesus to account for those sins. Fine, no problem, but if belief is a choice, why choose to believe that? And, perhaps this question is "unfair", why would any of that be true?!

"No, you can't control whether you SEE the bird, but you CAN control whether you shoot it or just keep looking at it."

Yeah.. ok.. you say you understand the idea, but this isn't really the way to go about attacking it. According to the theory whether you shoot it or just keep looking at it is determined by the state of the brain immediately before the eye's send the bird signal. Choice is an illusion, created by consciousness, which is in turn created by the matter which makes up your brain.

If you want to question it's validity I think you'd be better off explicitly arguing that the laws of physics do not apply to the human spirit or soul or whatever. Whatever argument you use, ultimately it comes down to saying "there's more than meets the eye to this universe of ours" as the nature of scientific thought will reinforce this paradigm, or a variation of it, endlessly...

And I do understand what this other theory is, but what I'm saying is that "No, you can't control whether you SEE the bird, but you CAN control whether you shoot it or just keep looking at it."

Your brain can control wheter to shoot it or not. Unfortunately it's the same brain you were born with (+ influence stored inside). Again, I do not think it makes much sense to decide wheter free will exists or not. Everything would be exactly the same as it is now. Only that it's God's decision to throw the majority of people into hell if "free will" didn't exist. He created our great-great-grandparents and those of the people around us. He f**ked up when creating us and throws a majority of us into the garbage. That's what it looks like to a scientific view of "free will" that doesn't really allow free decisions because everything is determined by our environment. Reason enough to be angry at Him.

Becuase no matter how compassionate a person is, they cannot choose what is the truth and what is not.

Now make a point here! You cannot choose what is the truth and what not? True. But you don't choose what's the truth, you choose what you believe. Remember there is no evidence for the existence of God. It's just your choice to believe it.

What else in life is "fair?" And what do you consider "fair?"

Bringing a mass-murderer to jail is fair. He negatively affects the life of others around him and needs to be stopped and punished.

Bringing a little boy in India to hell isn't fair. He hasn't done anything. He was just born by the wrong parents. You can't tell me it is fair when innocent kids die in war regions because some extrimist who decided to lead the country is hated by the rest of the world. You'd want to avoid that if you could. God could. He's almighty and good.

Think about it logically:
it is impossible to live without affecting others negatively in SOME way = TRUE

FALSE. Absolutely false. It might not be common but it's possible. The only reason it "isn't" in Christianity is the original sin. I don't consider it to negatively affect the people around me.

Affecting others negatively defines sin = TRUE

Not necessarily. The original sin doesn't affect others negatively. It just makes God angry.

There cannot be answers to EVERYTHING. And I don't have all the ones that exist, just as you who beleive wholly in science cannot give me every answer to every scientific question I could ask you.

I don't think God has an origin per se, since before the universe there was no time, there was no way he could have started or ended. I guess since humans cannot really fully comprehend infinity there is no way we can understand how God just always was/is/will be.

Bringing a mass murderer to jail is not fair. What about all the people he killed? Where is the "fair" for them? Puting him in jail will not bring back his victims. If the justice system is so mighty, why can it not stop him before he commits the crime?

As for "because god said so:" Yes, when you break everything in existence to one final question, we all must choose an answer and have faith that our decision is the right one. I say "because God did it." and you say "Science will discover that some day, we just don't know now." When you break it all down to the final, ultimate question, it comes down to faith.

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

The final question being: why or how was the universe created?

Why? Practical joke.

There cannot be answers to EVERYTHING. And I don't have all the ones that exist, just as you who beleive wholly in science cannot give me every answer to every scientific question I could ask you.
I don't think God has an origin per se, since before the universe there was no time, there was no way he could have started or ended. I guess since humans cannot really fully comprehend infinity there is no way we can understand how God just always was/is/will be.
Bringing a mass murderer to jail is not fair. What about all the people he killed? Where is the "fair" for them? Puting him in jail will not bring back his victims. If the justice system is so mighty, why can it not stop him before he commits the crime?
As for "because god said so:" Yes, when you break everything in existence to one final question, we all must choose an answer and have faith that our decision is the right one. I say "because God did it." and you say "Science will discover that some day, we just don't know now." When you break it all down to the final, ultimate question, it comes down to faith.

I think after all the discussions we finally came back to faith. Which isn't surprising but I found the thoughts in between to be rather interesting. Infinity is easier to understand for me than the existence of God - which might be the reason I'm not a believer. I don't understand the problem you have with my mass murderer argument because putting him to jail clearly prevents him from killing any more, thus is a good thing. Not perfect but it makes sense from a humane standpoint and is fair. I don't think that's too important now, though. :wink:

Unless anyone brings up something new and very interesting I'm done with this thread. It's over and it was informative! I think I have a clearer understanding of Christian thinking now although, obviously, my view hasn't changed.

I think I'm pretty well done with this thread too, although I want to clarify that my thoughts are very much more organized than most other Christians you will talk to. Also that there really is no REAL answer as to whether people who have not HEARD of God will go to hell. Only people's guesses.

To Cassius: I think the universe was created with the big bang... I suppose. And Why? we may never know.

Anyway, I'm finished now, unless as reaper said, anyone has anything else to contribute.

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

well, i've got nothing due to my 4 weeks of absence that caused me to drop about 4 pages behind
4 pages i'm to damn lazy to read