Combine staging area

Yo I should probably put this in the "maps" forum but I figure it will get more attention here. Let's get straight to it - I would like to create an area where the Combines service their A.P.C.s and helicopters Striders gunships or whatever. So far I've got little more than a square room (with the skybox texture on it to make it look as if it's outside) and a few Combine props like towers and a couple A.P.C.s and a smashed one and all of it's collective pieces. I think my problem is I'm lacking inspiration. I just can't seem to get it The map is one big box btw, I normally start with a big box and then put loads of details in afterwards to make it not look boxy. Also I'm pondering the idea of where such a place would be. I would like it to be in the city. But the thing is making the actual area interesting. It's like "How do you make a landing strip look interesting?" such things are usually just concrete and very rectanglular in layout.

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Just Kidding

Just Kidding

What I usually do in such a situation is looking around for examples. The Nexus maps and the City17 maps in general look like usefull inspiration sources for this. Concept art of futuristic/sci-fi cities and bases can help as well. I also often sketch out some idea's beforehand, trying to get as much (random) idea's as possible on paper. It helps me connect them better and all.

Well, thinking about it, the Combine would need a somewhat large area where both dropships can land and APC's can park. A cargo load area like seen in many transport companies looks appropriate, so you could use that as a base. Adding some light combine machinery here and there, and the occasional watchtower probably suffices. With some heavier combine structures for the landing pads or generally to reinforce the existing human buildings.
A place close to a highway for fast APC deployment and supply purposes, but relatively easy to defend. Try to think what sort of tactical decisions they would've made, based on their situation. Perhaps no such position was available and they decided to build a citadel-like transport hub themselves, possibly on top of some human infrastructure.

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

Hey thanks Captain P you are always so very reliable! I sorta guess that it's not exactly an easy place to game inspiration for because it would just be a large concrete base with lots of Combine equipment. So it doesn't offer very much in the way of level design oppertunities :sad:

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Just Kidding

Just Kidding

Well I've made a test area that has an area and then a straight bit and then another area but it feels really weird. Here are so screen shots:



This is supposed to be a teleporter but something feels royally weird about it:



Should I be able to see things that are around a corner like in this picture?:



Here are a couple helicopters:



I made this first area and then a straight bit and then another area because when I make just a room in Hammer with a skybox people tend to say it's too square. Should I just focus on trying to make the box look room less square rather than making the layout un square?

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Just Kidding

Just Kidding

That is not a free-form teleporter. In Kleiner's lab, he had it up against the wall and ceiling, you should follow suite.

As for making a landing strip look interesting, you should take a look at airport runways:


If you know where to find them, get some pictures of old Soviet landing strips, they're really interesting...for landing strips anyway.

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Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

No sorry that landing strip thing was just an example. I've decided on a new more square and rectangular map layout. Is it me or does this look more like an entity junkyard than a Combine "staging area"?:

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Just Kidding

Just Kidding

You're lumping it all together much too closely. The area that the player can walk around in doesn't need to be the complete base: some clever designing can make them feel like they're inside a huge base, while all they see are just a little parts of it.

I'd divide the base into several area's. Ground vehicle repair & maintenance here, dropship landing strips there, etc. Don't go for square squares, try to add some buildings here and there, or, better, use buildings to cordon off area's, e.g. make it more 'room-like', where each open spot between buildings becomes a 'room' or 'area'. Some fences here and there to make it look open.
Also, what I notice from those screenshots, you're hoping too much on the props to give your map an identity, a base feeling. But in this case, the architecture is what needs to do it. A base, and especially the way the combine do it (by combining :razz: ) isn't a concrete square and some low walls. There's a plethora of buildings to accomodate a wide variety of purposes. Use them! :smile:

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

Yeah thanks for the advice lol I've seen some really amazing level design from you and people like you but I don't think I'll ever rise to that level but your advice is much appreciated. I know what you mean by "clever level design". The thing is I need to know what kind of an area the Combine have adapted for their evil purposes. Maybe if it was a car part or something then I'd have a big more to go on. But this is just a generic yard at the moment and in yards they wouldn't have buildings. If I were doing a sort of place I would try to do only the bits I needed in the real world and the buildings that block off the player from certain areas I would do in the 3d skybox is this a good idea or not?

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Just Kidding

Just Kidding

Not really. The big advantage of using buildings in the actual level area is that you can divide the level into multiple parts, which, if they're not all visible at one point at the same time, is better for performance sake, so it allows you to put more detail in them, or make them larger to accomodate more stuff, than you would be able to fit in if it was all a single area.
I'd reserve the 3D skybox for things that are (much) further away), things the player would never really come close to.

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

Alright neato. Atleast I've got that worry out of the way. What kind of buildings could I put in the truck yard?

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Just Kidding

Just Kidding

Try some warehouses, truck loading bays, etc. And the occasional canteen/office building.

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

Think about what the Combine would use for a staging area in a city. Warehouses are good. Perhaps a high-rise carpark, with landing areas on the top? Or even a a small airfield. The only problem with these is that they require large open areas, which are hard to keep practical and interesting. The closest thing I can think of in the game is the garage (fairly early on, I think it might have been around where you have to open the loch for the airboat but I could be wrong).

I think giving your map a story helps a lot. Get an idea in your mind of where the Combine are, what theyre preparing for, and ideas for what to put where should flow from that.

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"If you talk at all during this lesson, you have detention. Do you understand?"

• My yr11 Economics teacher

Yeah, thanks for the advice Wil5son and Captain P. One thing that gets me about maps sometimes is that I know when somethings not right but I can't seem to pin point whats not right about it. Like if one where to have an outside map with no scenary in the background- that would look weird. I can never seem to make areas where people would really believe it's a "world" rather than a map. Take Lost Coast for instance: It is just made out of displacements, primitives and models. However the way they make that...I could only imagine.

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Just Kidding

Just Kidding

I'm having this thought for a while, that a blue, nice-weather, sunny sky could make places like this look 10 times more atmospheric. Like in HL1 when even the most basic maps felt warmer and nicer simply because of the awesome Black Mesa skyboxes. That cloudy, almost completely white sky always feels so boring and dominates 100% of all HL2 maps :/

And this should really, really (really!) go into the maps forum. To "get more attention here" is probably the worst excuse to break the (already wonderfully simple) forum structure of this site. :rolleyes:

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Why snark works.

I love warm orange sunset skyboxes. Contrasts well with white concrete. I'm thinking of doing a more abstract-like map, with such concrete structures against a rockwand, orange sunset/lighting, a specific (not-yet-determined) architectural style... :razz:

Uhhm, yeah, good you mention the use of different skyboxes. :smile:

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

i think the reason for this, reaper, is that it's the default skybox, and Captain, this is why i used the orange sunset skybox texture for my recent map, looks great on white sheet metal, i really need to upload that

FatStrings, that's true. Browsing the existing skyboxes there are a few more interesting ones (including, I think, one with polar lights?). But there's only so much sunsets you can use in maps. Sometimes it has to be daytime and there you have the foggy, cloudy ones only.

I think I'll give Terragen another shot and make a perfect blue sky for HL2. I haven't seen a single map for HL2 even trying that, so this could add a whole new feel to the HL2 map themes...

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Why snark works.

Perhaps it's also interesting to try to add some interactivity to the sky. I noticed this in the Ravenholm levels: a few rotating sprites were placed in the 3D skybox to simulate an actual fog. It was too easy to see how they did it, but something along those lines, executed better, might be interesting. Perhaps even moving, volumetric clouds, to some extend. I certainly think those kind of things would add a fresh touch to the utterly static skyboxes. :smile:

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

Well I've made a warehouse and mounted a Combine tower onto it(just ignore the miss aligned textures, it doesn't matter):





And this is the bit on the Striders side of things:





It looks abit plain, don't ya think?

I'm hoping you guys are gonna tell me it's a step in the right direction. I would love to be able to make maps where the player feels like he's in something big. I think the best examples of this are in all Half-Life 1 based games because they didn't have the help of the 3dskybox. I haven't worked out what needs to go in the other area yet. If you guys could maybe give me some advice on what else I could populate the area I would be greatful.

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Just Kidding

Just Kidding

You could try and think of a little more contrasty lighting. Lighting can change the general mood of a map strongly, so if you want to work on the atmosphere and feel consider the lighting, early.

One tip: Do not populate your maps early on.

Don't hope you can fill large, empty places later with something interesting. Already make the most basic, outside, far-away, unimportant background walls, the most basic brushes that just keep the player from falling into the sky and make sure those look interesting. Try to ignore the later detail and get some interesting architecture in the most basic brushwork.

For example those walls in the background. They don't look too exciting. Just walls. And they'll always stay a key visual in the background, no matter how much you put in front of them. Try doing something with those walls! Some hight variations, non-right angled shapes... Huge buildings that intersect with them. Even ignore the 3D skybox for now. Just the border walls, ground ect. that will later become the background, the basic "skeleton" of your map. Think of it as the foreground for now.

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Why snark works.

Yes you are right about the walls; however I would like to leave lighting alone at the moment. You do realise that when I'm happy with the general feel of this map I'm gonna make a "proper" one? So yeah, about the walls; this area is supposed to be a simple concrete yard surrounded by many other "simple concrete yards" some I'm not sure what to have intersecting with them. Maybe a warehouse? Maybe. Maybe a water tower? Maybe not. Because the Combine would presumably remove all unnesscery equipment, just like they do with humans when they assimulate them.

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Just Kidding

Just Kidding

Hmmm... maybe that's not really the point but if you describe the place as a "simple concrete yard" it will be hard to ever turn it into something more interesting.

I also doubt that the combine would keep using clean concrete walls after they removed everything. There would either still be some huge junks of stuff ripped off the ground left or they replaced it with a more efficient combine metal structure. What's typical for combine architecture (and interesting map brushwork since HL1) is a bit of asymmetry. Try to place buildings like mountains rather than castles. It's likely the place has been built in several stages, that architects had to improvise or build stuff on top of other buildings. This would make it look more "grown" and monumental.

The place is just too clean for humans and too dirty for combines. You could try and make the combine and human architecture "clash" together more. Right now they intersect with each other so cleanly it looks very artificial. Think of what the place was before and then how and where the combine would have smashed parts to pieces to "integrate" their combine equipment.

Again, don't put things in the map, try to re-build what's there. Big things, many big things. In the background. Then, and only then, go to detail, adding decorative props ect.

That's just my currently preferred way of doing things like this.

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Why snark works.

Hello Reaper47 I am finding this rather difficult to know where to get started. I think maybe you should do some drawings on the pictures showing where I should add stuff etc. I am not as advanced as you in my mapping skill so I need these concepts to be welded into my mind gradually :dorky:

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Just Kidding

Just Kidding

Just from screenshots general tips are all I can provide. But here's what I mean, generally:



The left is probably what you're still trying. Put in things into the box to make it look more interesting. That's close to impossible and very tedious (I remember). The right is what could be easier. Not easier to do but ultimately easier to get interesting shapes.

The borders are what's most important. Try to avoid them being too simple and long. Also add some different heights.

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Why snark works.

Woah dude! What I've experienced with bending outdoor maps is that I can see stuff that is around the corner and I don't fiind this very natural. Hang on, maybe it is? Yeah, ofcourse it is. But this would mean that the player could see the whole map, right? There would be no way to block visibility :sad:

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Just Kidding

Just Kidding

Even the Source engine has these limitations. Without some basic vis-blocking you won't get far (you'd either have super-simple areas or the performance drops very low).

But usually vis-blockers and visual landmarks are almost the same. You could place a building in the middle here (it could even be walked into if you can't see from one entrance to the other). If the building's high enough it could be a nice vis-blocker and look half-way natural.

I'd even make the layout that way if vis-blocking wasn't an issue.

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Why snark works.

I totally suck at this. Here are some more screenshots that I've taken from a new map:











I've got two areas at the moment and I also want to populate a third area. The first bit is where the player arrives outside and the second bit is in one of the main areas staging areas. It still looks abit square to me, which I am encountering problems combating:(

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Just Kidding

Just Kidding

I totally suck at this.

Don't we all. :smile:

Either you haven't compiled you map yet, or you have one really s**tty graphics card. :wink:

/dont take offense

I really think it's time you made a post for this map in the "maps" forum; the general banter forum isn't the right place for charting the progress of your level and requesting feedback.

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[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

Alright I admit that I did take the piss to put this in G.B. Would you be so kind enough as to move it for me Reno?

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Just Kidding

Just Kidding

Shoot. With all the dead image links, this thread looks horrible anyway.

Flynn, can't you get a host that permits hotlinking?

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Good luck on the map flunn

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Aaron's Stuff

Rather than moving it, I would propose you make a whole new thread (and
a map in your profile) for this project. This thread will be locked so
it can sink, and we look forward to helping you develop this map and
idea, which shows promise and development, in the Maps forum.

Go go go!

:smile: