An essay thing

-Fishy,

What you say is true regaurdless of the medium of exchange. even if we were all sitting in the same room we'd still have wildly differing concepts of god. One of the things that makes the Pit so great, is the wide range of intelligent people with wildly differing values who are perfectly willing to share them. You can find idiots expressing their opinions anywhere; it's hard to find the same thing with thoughtfull individuals.

I think the diffaculties of mapping must help to filter out some of the morons.

Orph

/me blushes :smile:

T-B

some of the stuff i read on these boards blows me away.

fishy said:
/me blushes :smile:

meant it.. you said alot, in very few words.. a true spokesperson indeed.

if all of our statements weren't biased, would we have any reason to write them? =P

anyway... i think you should just quit, lep. you've managed to get a certain someone thinking that your opinion on a broad subject was a was a personal attack on him. god knows how he seems to come to these conclusions, but you won't get anywhere with reasonable logic =P

:kitty: and is it just me.. or does this "cat" look an awful lot like a penis?

Bewbies said:
if all of our statements weren't biased, would we have any reason to write them? =P

actually yes, you see, the beginning of comprehension is the ability to see the others perspective, without biased getting in the way.

i know, most of you feel that because i am "IN" most of the confrontations around here, that i somehow started them, but the fact is, i can see both sides most times, i just fail to express in in such a way as to seem otherwise.

anyways, i stand by my words, you cannot fix a thing, till you admit its broken... comprehension needs/requires it.

misquote!! you made me sound an awful lot like a middle-aged busdriver

Bewbies said:
misquote!! you made me sound an awful lot like a middle-aged busdriver

aside from my utter confusion about this quote.. i can only concede, that you must know what you just said.

i stand corrected.

You believe a book written by Jesus the stoner? The man who smoked opium along with all the other peeps round that time? The miracles are just them tripping lol!

Cassius, don't try to turn this into a flame war. I did not attack your mother, and I certainly never called anyone ignorant, inept, selfish or un-enlightened. 'Wrong,' yes, and if you take offence at that I don't give a crap. I'm sure you're thinking that's what I am, but I guess that's okay because you believe in a religion and it's okay for you to voice your opinion.

Christianity is a very clever concept and I have yet to find an arguement to destroy it (like I haven't found one to prove it utterly), but I still believe it to simply be an attempt to try to fulfill our lives, to give it a purpose and to feel better during it. And there is nothing at all wrong with that- my friend has actually since 'converted' and I'm happy for her as she seems to be happier now she's decided- but I don't need it, and most people can live a perfectly happy life either without fooling themselves.

Anyway yes there were some stupid things said in it and I've taken it down for some editing. :razz:

ok...in my unqualified demented reasoning.....something happened to create all we see....everthing in the world....pop was a chaplains administrator for 13 years when i was growing up, so i saw and heard quite a few things that disturbed me, in lew of what a "benevolent and caring God"... "should be like"....as ive grown up, ive seen things change, that a merciful God, as per the texts of the bible, would not let happen....in my humble opinion, religion in general is a state of mind people need to have comfort in thier lives...not all people mind you, but some...personally, i dont know if there is a God....and if there is, then i truly believe none of us has a handle on what he/she/it may be....we live, we die; ashes to ashes and all that.....the world had been in turmoil in one way or another since the inception, and if this is what it takes for people to have a sense of being, a sense of comfort in a tumultuous world, then so be it....i see no harm in that.....what i do have a problem with is people taking it to fanatical extents....forcing ones beliefs, especially without proof, is a sure way to alienate yourself eventually....and as for using religion as a basis for wars, well, thats about the dumbest ass s**t ive ever heard, basicly because it circumvents the basic things the religion teaches to begin with....fanatisism in any form or fashion is dangerous....as i sit here and ponder the words of the Leperous one, i can only conclude that you sir, have not yet been exposed to the trials and tribulations of a tumultuous world, and therefor are not in need of the psycological comforts that a religion brings....it boils down, in my mind at least, that people all the world over find comfort in something....in one way or another.....from the junkies on the street, to the pastor in the pulpit...the "mystery" is what breeds the needs....and your means help determine what you can and should believe in, in your own mind....

Doc B... :wink:

i look forward to a healthy debate, but as soon as it gets in a realm otherwise, im out....peace.

Whats wrong with people who try to convert others into their religion?
Whats wrong with people who pray for you in their own way even if you
don't believe in it? It shows that they care about you and are
compassionate people.

mazemaster said:
Whats wrong with people who pray for you in their own way even if you don't believe in it? It shows that they care about you and are compassionate people.

it displays a level of judgmentalism i don't care to share.

if they asked my permission, maybe, but to assume they know best is obnoxious.

people say i am wrong to judge gays for their chosen lifestyle, but the same person assumes i need them to decide i need prayed for??? who are they to judge that?

thats setting themselves pretty high on the priority list IMO.. their list, not mine.

mazemaster said:
Whats wrong with people who try to convert others into their religion?

absolutetly nothing.....if i truly belive that the water is wet, and you dont, then i WILL try to prove it to you....what i said was "force thier beliefs on you"...that aspect i have a great problem with...ie...the hari chrishna's knocking on my door at 6 oclock in the morning on sunday....bah...take a hike. but if i ask what your views on a religion are, then i better be prepared for a lengthy discussion; and, the only way i would ask, is if i truly wanted to know....

Whats wrong with people who pray for you in their own way even if you don't believe in it? It shows that they care about you and are compassionate people.


and i have absolutely no problem with anyone praying for me as a compassionate and caring person....that is their right, imho....its what they believe will help me, the heathen, what makes them "comfortable" in this world, what they need to get thru the day, so be it.....but DO NOT expect me to reciprocate, and DO NOT be offended if i dont take them seriously, because that is MY right....

i will say tho, i am a bit of a hipocrite....i know alot of people that have been shot and missed, shot at and hit, and have found myself praying to God to get me through it, even to the extent of something like, "if you get me thru this s**t God, ill go to church every sunday for the rest of my days".....well, it was horses**t then, and its horses**t now...."battlefield religion"....its what i needed to "GET ME THRU THE NIGHT"....

Doc Brass...

Leperous said:

Cassius, don't try to turn this into a flame war. I did not attack your mother,

First of all, I want to make it clear that I said at the start that I was willing to be as polite in response to your essay as you were in writing it. I saw an essay that was filled with inconsiderate, blunt, and overassuming statements, which you knew was going to anger people just like me.

Second, I will debate you reasonably, sensibly, and calmly when you present to me an essay with these same emotions presented, rather than resentfulness and scorn. I have yet to see it.

I spoke only of my mother because it was a very clear example; you've insulted not only her, but many others in my family with statements below, that in all ways demean their mental capacity and moral judgement;

"To me, he appears malevolent (towards mankind in general), psychotic (various OT stories- e.g. the Flood) and insecure (for requiring us to live for him and testing people?s faith)."

This says to me that nobody who believes in Christianity has the ability to at all comprehend the fact that they believe in a God who has done nothing but wreak havoc, trick, and belittle the humans He has created, and in some way are submitting to the 'psychotic' and 'insecure' force.

"Dying on the cross and coming back to life, then? There seem to be a lot of conveniences at this part of the story- having nails through your palms instead of wrists, not having your legs broken, a conveniently donated tomb complete with inescapable boulder, and guarding soldiers being scared off by angels and never being heard from again."

You realize, of course, that you are pointing out plot holes in the Bible, like it's a summer movie with Ice Cube or something. And of course, as documented by many a Roman historian (ie Tacitus) the execution of a man named Jesus for proclaiming himself a son of God did occur, and so you're talking about a real philosopher's death here. I'm sure Jesus of Nazareth didn't consider getting hands through his hands instead of his wrists 'convenient'.

[I hit the back button and the rest of my points were lost; I'll retype them in a few.]

let me make this clear, i hope everyone gets the gist of my comment.

when this topic first started, i felt a twinge, one that said "no way this will end well"

ok, picture a funnel, the big top part is the beginning post, everyone is all about in the same location, as we each post, we slide toward the smaller end, i now feel we are at the bottom of this funnel, and its very damned crowded in here, if someone doesn't stop putting stuff into the top of this funnel, its going to cause trouble at the bottom..

get my drift?

this topic started off ok, its not quite as ok any-longer.

it has drifted into personal, a place EVERYONE should have known NOT to take it to.. being agnostic myself, leans me in a direction few share, at least at my level of dedication to the idea... but i am open minded enuff to realize that anyone who ventures into the realm of taking this personally, have CLOSED themselves off from anything resembling "unbiased comprehension"

i recommend this topic declared, "paid in full" and closed to further input, from anyone.. anyone!

/ 2 cents

drift duely noted orph, but i havent taken it personally yet.....i dont mind these discussions at all, as long as they remain civil...its a tough nut to crack without personal bias getting into the mix....i myself am protestant by faith, but i consider myself open to all views, if depicted.....civily....and i also felt that twinge, thought it was you elbowing me in the ribs bud....

lets continue, but under the guise of "information", and a little less passion please....

***ducks, preps for long run to cover

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

its just very upsetting to see people i actually seek out for advice, acting this way.

if all i can do to keep the peace, is continually pointing out the lack of peace, i will.

discussion ends, when passion enters..

let me start by saying, Lep, again, im really really becoming miffed at being booted while typing a friggin post....nuff said....

and i understand yer feelings jon, but you know as well as i do, this hasnt even remotely approached a level exhibited by some posts of passion around here....lets just keep it civil gents....please.....

we will lock no post before its time.....but when its time, itll surely be done.... :wink:

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

I'm silent on this issue i'm afraid, I know about but not in depth to give accurate "opinions" on religion..

I will say however, I feel it is a deeply personal part of peoples lives which should not be attacked, and just the same it should not be forced upon others.

I think the biggest moral and attitude certain people need to take is one of respect, and then we can truly "flourish", as it were :smile:

I'll keep watching for now!

gwilliam, you are wise beyond your ears....er....years(typo) :heee:

well said sir....

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

Naw, this topic is good. It is interesting to see how people react to controvertial questions and positions.

lol cass.... i cant help but think back to my two different belief categories; "who is the best candidate", and "there is a god". if what he says is SO unreasonable, then why do you keep playing along?

as much as you might think otherwise, every argument has an end. although, it almost NEVER ends with a winner or loser. both sides STILL walk away thinking they are right. though, you've said that the "loser" of an argument is the one that concedes on the basis of "it's just opinion". is that why you are still going at this? is your religion just another opinion to you? because, well, you don't sound like a christian to me... you sound like another feral kid who somehow got his hands on a soapbox. (this is what you call a real personal attack, btw.) :biggrin: reach out your hand to him. show him the way of jesus christ. if he refuses, pray for him. isnt this the belief that you are defending? because it sure as hell doesnt seem like it.

i say agaaaain... im not a christian, but i wish i had the will to be. i wish i could believe in that sugar coated mess, but i cant. im weak. however, if you are able to... MORE POWER TO YA.

Coming from a country where religion is not a vain word (20 years of civil religious wars) I ?d like to say a few words on the subject.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

I think the points that Leperous pointed out, in a rather provocative way, are normal questionnings anyone with a scientific mind would ask himself. There are indeed a lot of contradictions in Christian theories(judgement day, hell, etc..), and any religion in general. But then again, it?s about faith, feelings. You cannot use logical arguments to understand God, life, or love... <o:p></o:p>

The essence of christianism is- or was- an excellent ?set of morals? to use Lep?s words. The first christian societies were an ideal communist society, where the rich gave spontaneously to the poor, where people cared truly for each other (as we can see in movies like Quo Vadis, the Robe, etc..). So from a social point of vue, it was an excellent thing! Unfortunately, during the years, men corrupted this concept; the result was wars, ignorance, fanatism? The Inquisition is an example of wrong christianism: burning scientists and protestants for being heretics, or sorcerers, that?s definitely not what christianism is about.<o:p></o:p>

I think Islam is now in a phase similar to Inquisition, where fanatism, ignorance, and hatred are blinding everyone, and corrupting what was once a very tolerant and open religion. Muslim intellectuals are scared to speak out their opinion, and I believe women are afraid to look sexy, when some bearded guy can just show up, and start shouting at them?<o:p></o:p>

Anyway, religion is a good thing, especially christianism; it can enlighten your life with love, hope and openness to the others. Tribal thinking is something else. That creates wars, racism. And superstition is also something else?<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

The reason why your friends recently ?remembered?christanism can be either, the need for a more intuitive, more poetic presence in their materialistic world ( work, money ?), which is a good thing, or it can be a counter-reaction against the rise of Islam (as we see it on the news, even though terrorists are not at all representatives of this religion ), which can be a bad thing, cause I don?t think you can fight fanatism with fanatism; it will only make it worse.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

p.s: If anyone is wondering, I am christian. (Maronite: that?s an oriental rite)<o:p></o:p>

Cassius, if you read Tacitus' account (which was written about 100 years after the crucifixion), he does not say Jesus claimed to be the son of God. And you must be well aware that his existance (which is not proved by this account by any means) does not automatically infer what you believe him to be.

Kain said:
But then again, it?s about faith, feelings. You cannot use logical arguments to understand God, life, or love...

You can if you have a different view on life, i.e. that we're just a bunch of mammals running around in a chaotic universe, and that love etc. are just chemical inbalances that change the way we think about something! If you need something more to that- most of the people I've talked to think that life has a point or purpose!- then that's what religion and spirituality is for...

This is a rather heady topic, even for this forum. I find all the statements in here to be interesting reading though. As the son of a minister who also happens to be a free thinker, I feel I have been blessed with the ability to see all points of views as valid to some extent. Religion in general , I believe, is ingrained within the human blueprint. Similar to the survival instinct in nature. It is an ironic reaction to being conscious, or a curse rather, a result of being able to question ones own origins and purpose. The basic tennet of most religions is to behave in a way that promotes the species ability to propogate and prosper.

There are however, many parts to the human blueprint. As well as the afforementioned, there is emotion and all that that word entails. Most people are just too lazy, or confused, or frightened to want to figure the important questions out for themselves. They are easily led. A great deal of good has come from religious based belief systems, however just as much is true of the opposite. There is a blackness in the human heart. In every human heart.

The problem I believe is in those who choose or are chosen to lead. It's a crapshoot, like all things in a so called freewill existence. While there are some brilliant teacher/Leaders in the world,there are also those who let greed and malevolence become their standard. When these types come into power, people (lazy, confused, frightened) are willing to take shortcuts to gain long term profits(eternal existence, favor with god, etc) regardless of the cost to others, in most cases whether they have the same beliefs or not. Much like in the business world. Again, human nature.

As for God, I choose to believe in some way that there is something greater out there. I can't imagine our existence as some sort of galactic anomoly. It's too amazing to believe that our existence is a fluke. As for mankind, I feel that the human species in general is not responsible or mature enough for the current concept of religion. Too many of us, view it as a valid excuse for the most terrible of actions. I can only hope that evolution will fix this problem in time, however I am pretty sure it won't be in my lifetime.

Some of the best A** reamings I have recieved in my time have come from so called "Good Christians". I have also seen some amazing acts of kindness and self sacrifice. There is a definite Yin and Yang to all things in the known universe. There simply can be no knowledge of what is finally right. It goes against nature, and maybe god.Like knowing or being told the end of a great story before reading the book, or seeing the movie. It could quite possibly ruin it for you.

Why should god show himself to you?. How do you know he does'nt?. Perhaps we are as unaware of his presence as ants are of our existence. In the end, and until further notice, we are all left only with the ability to choose the type of life we lead.That is our gift. Perhaps heaven/hell will be the legacy we leave to our future generations.

I hope this has not been too rambling.

Juim said:
I hope this has not been too rambling.

damnit jim, i was just about to microwave some popcorn and your story ended :biggrin:



[edit] i just realized that my reference to startrek "damnit jim" is awfully close to juim

You can if you have a different view on life, i.e. that we're just a bunch of mammals running around in a chaotic universe, and that love etc. are just chemical inbalances that change the way we think about something!

Is this really enough for even the most dour of scientists? I don't dispute that this explanation is likely to be true, but it doesn't seem to be a sufficient explanation. There are different levels of explanation, and the most primitive - molecules/atoms/quantum events/whatever - is not necessarily the most illuminating for a given context. A higher level of explanation (e.g. at the level of intentional states) may be reducible to a lower level in principle, but that does not mean that our knowledge about the higher level can entirely be gained by studying the lower. In other words, high level explanations are reducible to low level ones, but not in an eliministic way.

You won't learn much about life and love by studying chemistry or quantum physics.

I think it's just a set of very complicated events and reactions occuring and that there's nothing supernatural to the Universe. Be poetic if you want and tell me there's more to it than just that, but the universe sucks and there is no guiding hand!

I never said there was anything more than that. I certainly don't believe there is any guiding hand.

What I am trying to explain is that mental/intentional states (such as beliefs, emotions, spirituality etc) are not well-described by physical terms. I believe, just as you do, that they arise from very complex physical events. You do not have to postulate anything supernatural in order to recognise the inadequacy of physical explanations for our intentional and emotional states.

Suppose that we were to have some deep-and-meaningful-type discussion about some emotional issue. Would you try to describe it in purely physical terms? Say, "this chemical affected my brain in this way, and led to a change in my behaviour in such a manner"?

And the universe doesn't suck, nor is it "good" or "bad" or "scary" or "big". It just is. It is only our perspective on life that makes us attribute these sorts of human-relative predicates to the universe.

Incidentally, for all that I am arguing "against" you, I share much the same viewpoint. In particular, I believe that religion and spirituality proceed from a need for security and meaning in a universe of which we are a more-or-less irrelevant part. That doesn't reduce their value in the slightest, however!

Leperous said:

Kain said:
But then again, it?s about faith, feelings. You cannot use logical arguments to understand God, life, or love...

You can if you have a different view on life, i.e. that we're just a bunch of mammals running around in a chaotic universe, and that love etc. are just chemical inbalances that change the way we think about something! If you need something more to that- most of the people I've talked to think that life has a point or purpose!- then that's what religion and spirituality is for...

Why do you believe that, Lep?

Bewbies, you've clearly never been in any good arguments or debates.

I 'know' it more than believe it, because of a little thing called scientific thought. Calling upon the supernatural is what you do when you get stuck, but then someone cleverer than you will come along and explain it for you.

I am also loathe to listen to what the bible tries to tell me about how the world is, because it has a bad track record and is obviously just a set of stories.

The mind is an incredible box of tricks, but 'love is only a feeling', which like I said is simply an alteration of how you percieve the world and act due to chemical and electrical changes in your brain. On a higher level, it's your subconscious strongly telling you you want something, and to go out of your way to get it. What do you think love is- something more, another higher level? If so, what proof do you have, other than another feeling?

And what evidence at all do you have for a god or any other supernatural event or guidance in this world? It's trying to apply human thoughts and experiences to the universe if you call upon one- thinking that we must go somewhere when we die, that there's someone in the sky taking care of us and who will reward us if we do good, that someone must have made the Universe and given it a point.

is that really what you think? because i wasnt making any attempt and gaining any ground in this argument here. there are times when im argumentative and downright antagonistic - because, well, its fun to argue. however... to argue over this subject, you can't just do it on a whim - for the hell of it. I also have friends and family that are balls to bones christians - just like you do. what would your mother say to lep's essay? because if she were the kind of christian you're defending, she would be praying for lep right now. if you are really so intent on "winning" this "there is a god" argument, do it in action. act like a christian - that which you are defending. because even in arguments, actions speak louder than words.

:kitty: <---- seriously... that looks like a penis more than ANY cat ive seen. look at iiiiit

Leperous said:
I 'know' it more than believe it, because of a little thing called scientific thought. Calling upon the supernatural is what you do when you get stuck, but then someone cleverer than you will come along and explain it for you.

I am also loathe to listen to what the bible tries to tell me about how the world is, because it has a bad track record and is obviously just a set of stories.

The mind is an incredible box of tricks, but 'love is only a feeling', which like I said is simply an alteration of how you percieve the world and act due to chemical and electrical changes in your brain. On a higher level, it's your subconscious strongly telling you you want something, and to go out of your way to get it. What do you think love is- something more, another higher level? If so, what proof do you have, other than another feeling?

And what evidence at all do you have for a god or any other supernatural event or guidance in this world? It's trying to apply human thoughts and experiences to the universe if you call upon one- thinking that we must go somewhere when we die, that there's someone in the sky taking care of us and who will reward us if we do good, that someone must have made the Universe and given it a point.

The concept of God is different for me. Some people think of some old dude in the sky raining thunderbolts down on people, but I don't think so.

If the entire universe is a supercomplex web of action and reaction, and presumably time is not infinite in both 'directions', then there must have been something to start it.

You clearly see God as something that human beings invent when they have reached the end of the knowledge that they readily have access to, but 'scientific knowledge' as something vast and infinite, able to explain all things beyond what we know. I don't think science alone can give me or anyone else a reason to be alive. Theology and science, I believe, are tied together, because they're both a search for answers, and in some cases quite equal to each other.

I said 'why do you believe that' because I wanted to know what it was in your own life that made you not believe in Christianity or God; clearly, these things to not get decided in totally fair and balanced instances. I'd ask you the same thing about why you don't believe in love.

Trust me when I know exactly what you're saying. Everything we think is just a set of electrical and chemical mixes and combinations; but I'd ask you, since that's the only thing we'll ever feel, why despise it? Why shun our own nature and desires?

"if you are really so intent on "winning" this "there is a god" argument, do it in action. act like a christian - that which you are defending. because even in arguments, actions speak louder than words."

How about no, Bewbies? I'm not a Christian, but I will defend them, and I will do it how and why I please, without your oh-so-valuable input. If you honestly think that nobody ever leaves a debate thinking differently, then A. there is no point to trying to prove that to me, and B. you have never been in a successful debate. And 'actions speak louder than words'? What the hell do you suggest I do? Interpretive dance?

I do believe in love, I think I know what it actually is, but I never said I despised it for being that way, and you still haven't answered what you think it is :smile: And I also never said science was infinite, I don't believe anything physical can be infinite (that is a belief though) and that there is a limit to what the Universe can actually do- and who knows, when we reach the point of understanding everything, we'll probably start playing about and trying to change things ourselves and effectively become 'gods'.

However, I get tired of people saying that we will never be able to answer things like where did the Universe come from. 200 years ago, people didn't even know that other galaxies existed, and until about 10 years ago we'd never actually seen another extrasolar planet. We're learning pretty quickly, but I don't think we'll be able to answer that question until we sort out our time travel paradoxes... And the reason you're alive is because your parents had sex once upon a time, and from that zygote stage for you it obviously all went downhill :wink: hehe

Love is the deepest form of instinct or 'fear' (as many in politics slander ANY instinct as) - in a perfectly reasonable world, love shouldn't exist (self sacrifice, lack of defined motives, leaning away from rational behavior), and really in a perfectly animalistic world, love doesn't exist either ('settling down' and having comfortable and stable relationships is a female notion, within genders people are 'supposed' to be always combatting eachother for more sex and food). It doesn't have a real direct explanation besides that it is unique in having no explanation.

Words aren't things, words are representations of things, and I think any real meaning of life or of human experience cannot be butchered down to words without severely decaying its own essence. Clearly, love is one of these things.

I don't think its important to know everything, and having an addiction to knowledge is just as bad as having an addiction to anything else. People consider an addiction to knowledge and finding the truth because we have spent most of human existance cutting eachother up before we knew why we were doing it.

Just like with food, you don't eat more of it than you need, or less than you need. Everyone has a unique amount of knowledge that they need to explain their own world, no matter how it may rank up to higher standards, I say so be it.